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Beerus isn't older than time.
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DBH and DBX speed
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
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- #242
Refer to the scan above
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Being put there (which in itself implies that someone else put him there) against his will kinda makes infinite very questionable. Btw, it would at best be infinite.
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But in DBH he chooses to live there. Chronoa put him there, the Supreme Kai of time. Plus, in DBH, I am pretty sure there is a quote stating Demigra is around (if not older) than TokiToki (the bird that puts time into motion). I think people seem to forget that this is also a DBH speed thread as well.
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Ever heard of poetic language? "Existed since the dawn of time" in this context just means that the Majins are really frigging old.
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Im neutral on this.
Im surprised nobody has argued over the whole CoT thing. i mean even though its been stated to be timeless, some people still don't believe it (not saying its anybody here)
Im surprised nobody has argued over the whole CoT thing. i mean even though its been stated to be timeless, some people still don't believe it (not saying its anybody here)
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I mean, the whole thing with the CoT is that it is timeless.
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"Poetic langauge" what even? its written in their profiles that they are time immoral. Ever since time started ticking in Universe 7, it's even in the Kanzenshuu and stated by Toriyama http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/
And Beerus existed before hm.
And Beerus existed before hm.
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@Matt Yes it is. Not to be rude but just saying it isn't a speed feat is not actual proof that i'm wrong. Demigra can consistently move and act in a place devoid of time for 75 million years and the majority of the game, and even extend his influence into the timelines while there. He fits the definition for the requierments.
Actually a few characters have used portals or teleportation in the past, but in this case all the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you. So assuming they have hax or help to do this, when nothing suggests they do, and they are not even part of time pattrol, and they are shown to fly in and out leaves burden of proof on you to prove they all have some sort of hax they are using to do this, and it is not actual speed like is implied by them flying there adn back with regular travel.
Trancending time could be interprited as many things by itself, but in conjunction with the above feats it helps to substantiate that they are immesurable in speed, which is one interpritation if taken literally.
Actually a few characters have used portals or teleportation in the past, but in this case all the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you. So assuming they have hax or help to do this, when nothing suggests they do, and they are not even part of time pattrol, and they are shown to fly in and out leaves burden of proof on you to prove they all have some sort of hax they are using to do this, and it is not actual speed like is implied by them flying there adn back with regular travel.
Trancending time could be interprited as many things by itself, but in conjunction with the above feats it helps to substantiate that they are immesurable in speed, which is one interpritation if taken literally.
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+Beerus being older than Majins which Toriyama says and Kanzenshuu confirms existed since time started ticking. Thats undeniable
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"Was collapsing and consuming all of time, merging past, present and future into one single void, and could still move and perfectly function in such a state" Solaris gets infinite speed for this.
Demigra was literally doing this in DBH. And before the argument comes "Solaris is temporal omnipresent", in DBH, fodder like the Dark Dragon are Temporal omnipresent. And the Dark Dragon was also destroying time.
"Can move and function after erasing time"
Again, Demigra, in DBH, does this daily. destroying Time is kinda what he does.
Not trying to be rude but something seems off about very similar feats are interpreted very differently like how we call Demigra's feats outliers even though he performed them countless times.
Demigra was literally doing this in DBH. And before the argument comes "Solaris is temporal omnipresent", in DBH, fodder like the Dark Dragon are Temporal omnipresent. And the Dark Dragon was also destroying time.
"Can move and function after erasing time"
Again, Demigra, in DBH, does this daily. destroying Time is kinda what he does.
Not trying to be rude but something seems off about very similar feats are interpreted very differently like how we call Demigra's feats outliers even though he performed them countless times.
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Demigra wasnt doing that according to his page. Aside from his other 2-B reasonings, He was destroying all the timelines in the multiverse so he could recreate his own.
Solaris was collapsing his own yes, but the big difference here is he was fusing them into a void to move around in. Not remaking an entirely new one.
That isnt the same thing.
Solaris was collapsing his own yes, but the big difference here is he was fusing them into a void to move around in. Not remaking an entirely new one.
That isnt the same thing.
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Funny thing is the place FW1 came from after he lost to demigra looks like a timeless void (IMO), pretty sure he survived because of the tokitoki blessing/gift thing which even the DB wiki believes. Demigra was gonna destroy all of time, and then from the timeless whatever create his own time.
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@Kukui He was destroying all timelines and causing them to overflow into eachother and merge together, it legit says "all sorts of possibilities are overflowing" when we see GT guys, DBS guys, game guys etc all coming together despite beign from diffrent timelines, hence all the timeline anomalies with his mere energy being present etc, kai of time was barely keeping it stable while they fought him, and Demigra was going to act after the destrustion of the multiverse and real world making his own new world from nothing in a void. Fun fact, the last time he made a world (aside from his castle) was the demon realm, he was one of the ones who created it, and it has completly diffrent laws of physics from our own and is run more like magic according to daizenshuu. So yes, same thing dealing with voids and distorted time fusing, actually more impressive since he is said to trancend the multivese and is goign to destroy the real world to. Also his own castle is in a timeless void in heroes on purpose, he makes it in the crack of time.
Anyhow going to sleep now, but will certainly look at this more tommorow.
Anyhow going to sleep now, but will certainly look at this more tommorow.
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Strange how none of that is used as a justification for him on his page. Besides that, "overflowing" doesn't mean that they were fused into one.
Plus, unlike Demigra, Solaris was literally consuming his timelines into one as well into a void. But then again, I'm not Sonic expert so someone else is going to have to explain more on why Solaris is infinite.
Regardless, I am done with this for now.
Plus, unlike Demigra, Solaris was literally consuming his timelines into one as well into a void. But then again, I'm not Sonic expert so someone else is going to have to explain more on why Solaris is infinite.
Regardless, I am done with this for now.
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Well, Towa and Mira were planning on fusing two seperate dimensions (The demon realm and the mortal universe) into one so.
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His page should be more detailed. If I had acess to it I would flesh it out. But that is what happens.
In this cae it does, since the timelines are spreadign into eachother, crossing events and characters, and creating time rifts, and the energy is spread through all the timelines and beyond, and they are all unstable. Also he has all towas power and she can fuse the demon realm and universe together, so it stands to reason he has the exact saem power, but clearly at a much higher level.
Demigra was gaining power from all the timelines he was warping and overflowing into eachother and would destroy them all, leaving a void, which he would then make his own world in his image after from the void. So I'd say very similar, but Demigra's was higher scale due to it including the real world to which is trancendant to the multiverse.
Same, goign to sleep, but will check back tommorow.
In this cae it does, since the timelines are spreadign into eachother, crossing events and characters, and creating time rifts, and the energy is spread through all the timelines and beyond, and they are all unstable. Also he has all towas power and she can fuse the demon realm and universe together, so it stands to reason he has the exact saem power, but clearly at a much higher level.
Demigra was gaining power from all the timelines he was warping and overflowing into eachother and would destroy them all, leaving a void, which he would then make his own world in his image after from the void. So I'd say very similar, but Demigra's was higher scale due to it including the real world to which is trancendant to the multiverse.
Same, goign to sleep, but will check back tommorow.
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Yeah his '''Heroes''' key still needs some fleshing out.
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Just going to Reemphasize the Beerus being older than time being confirmed by Kanzenshuu and Toriyama via the scan I posted above since with everything else it's going to end up ignored
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Actually, the interview with Toriyama specifically states he is time immoral. I.e: existed since time started ticking. This is also in the Kanzenshuu http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/ and Beerus implies that Buu to him, is a baby. He's speaking to the Majin race specifically (Who again existed ever since time began). Ryu in this thread undoubtly makes the most sense and so does Blue. Dark agrees, so does UMR and many others as well. Then there's Toki-Toki embodying time and Demigra absorbing him
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- #264
Please have your own opinion as well judging off what has been said and shown.
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Well, I constantly have an extremely split focus between lots of different tasks, and am tired and overworked in general, so I recurrently have a hard time making up my mind about ambiguous issues.
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And I understand that, and I don't want to come of as rude, but relying on one's persons opinion when others, including staff have the opposite view serves as favortisim.
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Well, Azathoth tends to have a very good sense of judgement, and Matthew does have some good points. Given how disputed this issue is, I would prefer to check with them again before giving some form of clearance.
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Azathoth is in the middle. Most of Matthews points have been refuted countless times by Ryu and Blue. But ok lmao. Dark also agrees with Blue who agrees with Ryu. Dark also has good judgement.
I'm going to go now, but i'll be back to see how this progresses tomorrow
I'm going to go now, but i'll be back to see how this progresses tomorrow
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I still disagree with everything.
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Yes, but the combination of being able to move in timeless voids and being able to freely travel through time seems to make this an uncertain case.
In addition, you almost seem to be the only one who outright disagrees.
In addition, you almost seem to be the only one who outright disagrees.
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@Therefir he already arrived and his stance (so far) is neutral.
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Time travel is just that = time travel. It doesn't guarantee immeasurable speed normally.
And not at all, plenty of people disagree above. We wouldn't be about to create a rule had it been just me.
And not at all, plenty of people disagree above. We wouldn't be about to create a rule had it been just me.
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After looking back, Immeasurable definitely doesn't apply. "Infinite" could probably be argued for, though the issue is no character this applies to is ever portrayed as infinitely "fast" next to a character with a quantifiable speed, nor beyond normal time's constraints once they actually enter a timeline.
I don't have very much of an opinion beyond that, at this point.
I don't have very much of an opinion beyond that, at this point.
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^ Ryu said:
I am not claiming they are equal to smt characters, but that you can't dismiss feats or statements that would make somebody infinite or immeasurable based on the viewers perspective of them fighting at finite speeds, which is what was being done as reasoning for ignoring there feats/statements. smt and digimon were just examples of verses that usually are shown in what we would see as the viewer in finite speed in combat, but in reality there few statements and feats dictate they are not actually bound by linear time.
Im not sure if it answers your concerns, but just incase.
I am not claiming they are equal to smt characters, but that you can't dismiss feats or statements that would make somebody infinite or immeasurable based on the viewers perspective of them fighting at finite speeds, which is what was being done as reasoning for ignoring there feats/statements. smt and digimon were just examples of verses that usually are shown in what we would see as the viewer in finite speed in combat, but in reality there few statements and feats dictate they are not actually bound by linear time.
Im not sure if it answers your concerns, but just incase.
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We know what he said. His argument boils down to:
1) Using statements that have already been analzyed and debunked
2) Making false equivalence comparisons with SMT and Digimon.
1) Using statements that have already been analzyed and debunked
2) Making false equivalence comparisons with SMT and Digimon.
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We should make this regulation a thing, yes.Kepekley23 said:
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