DBH abilities: Electric Boogaloo

[LuffyRuffy46307]

We also have this that @Don't talk he said

Like, without explanation it could be the mental concept. Heck it be a concept of Idealism or Nominalism. It could also be whatever else the author came up with, the range of defiinitions of the word "concept" in fiction are really vast.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

We also have this that @Don't talk he said

You realize this applies to everyone, right?

Luffy, we don't need any of this stupidity. Get out of here and let us debate seriously. We don't have time for this.

Forgive my bluntness,but I seriously can't stand you when you act like this.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You realize this applies to everyone, right?

Luffy, we don't need any of this stupidity. Get out of here and let us debate seriously. We don't have time for this.

Forgive my bluntness,but I seriously can't stand you when you act like this.

I'm just trying to help, if you're not okay with me you can talk kindly, but kindly.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I'm just trying to help, if you're not okay with me you can talk kindly, but kindly.

No, you're acting petty and going after another verse just because ours is being targeted. This is unacceptable behavior,and mind you, you're acting like the people who you criticize all the time.

So quit it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No, you're acting petty and going after another verse just because ours is being targeted. This is unacceptable behavior,and mind you, you're acting like the people who you criticize all the time.

I'm not engaging in any petty behavior, I'm not going after any, I'm just saying that it's accepted, if there's a problem with me, report me, there's no need to be an asshole to me.

 

[DivineAura44]

No, you're acting petty and going after another verse just because ours is being targeted. This is unacceptable behavior,and mind you, you're acting like the people who you criticize all the time.

So quit it.

I doubt they were trying to bring Slime down, Fuji said that this site never gave concept manip based on time stuff. Luffy was just trying to show that this isn't inherently true and that verses such as Slime do have said ability for that reason. No need for you to be hostile to each other.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I doubt they were trying to bring Slime down, Fuji said that this site never gave concept manip based on time stuff. Luffy was just trying to show that this isn't inherently true and they verse such as Slime do have said ability for that reason. No need for you to be hostile to each other.

Because it's one of my favorite verses, I'm not trying to bring any harm to anyone, it's just that it's being accepted as a conceptual manipulation, just as DT mentioned that fitting in as conceptual manipulation

 

[DivineAura44]

Because it's one of my favorite verses, I'm not trying to bring any harm to anyone, it's just that it's being accepted as a conceptual manipulation, just as DT mentioned that fitting in as conceptual manipulation

Yeah but that isn't gonna forward the discussion in a productive way.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I'm just saying that it's accepted.

This isn't my thread to argue in, but Luffy...you shouldn't be engaging in whataboutism when it comes to verses outside of Dragon Ball. Just because one verse does something doesn't mean that another verse follows it beat to beat the same, i.e. things like Slime since the context for time and space being conceptual there is likely way different then it is in Dragon Ball's case (and yes I am aware that people are questioning Slime's case, but I use it as an example of not comparing verses to one another.)

So really all I would suggest is to argue for or against the downgrades using things from Dragon Ball and not OTHER franchises, whataboutism has never worked in the past and it sure as hell ain't going to work here

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Yeah but that isn't gonna forward the discussion in a productive way.

This. Forgive my moment there,but we tried to explain that to him every time,and he simply doesn't listen, or I dunno. This isn't the first time we discussed about this.

 

[Shiraito983]

slime cm 2 is root to the great spirit thing which is a concept and so other complex contexts. and not just because of time manipulation. so don't mention tensura and it is irrelevant here,

please continue your crt and move on without replying to me and focus on db crt

 

[Greenshifter]

"It definitely is" Do you have a source for that or nah

The Time power and concept explanation page...?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Time power and concept explanation page...?

So your evidence that my debunk is wrong is... the thing that it's debunking to begin with? Very strange.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Then this is also wanked and deserves to be removed. Thank you for pointing this out to me, though.

Nah, it's Not, so knowing you, you'll want to downgrade, before you do tho, you first have to find out why it was agreed to be a Type 1 Concept (not 2)
bringing up a verse in your delulu is not a good way to even go about things since that's probably handled
I am neutral towards everything

 

[DivineAura44]

So your evidence that my debunk is wrong is... the thing that it's debunking to begin with? Very strange.

Since you guys are stuck at an impasse, I'll phrase the question so that we can evoke a response that actually forwards the discussion.

For the Dragon Ball supporters: What does "more impressive" mean? Why does the manipulation of time here grant type 2 (or any type for that matter) conceptual manipulation while the manipulation of time normally is just time manip? Is there a fundamental difference between this time and our current understanding of regular time?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Neutral with everything for now, will read the whole discussion later when I have time.

 

[Greenshifter]

So your evidence that my debunk is wrong is... the thing that it's debunking to begin with? Very strange.

You were acting as if you didn't know where my claim came from, you should have said "your source is bad" instead of "what's your source?".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You were acting as if you didn't know where my claim came from, you should have said "your source is bad" instead of "what's your source?".

Okay, so your source is bad. I've got a whole post explaining how Time Power does not do anything particular distinct from regular time manipulation, so unless there's another source explaining why DBH time is "better" than normal time, everything I said still stands.

 

[Greenshifter]

Okay, so your source is bad

Cope

I've got a whole post explaining how Time Power does not do anything particular distinct from regular time manipulation

Hypertimelines, containing voids without the concepts of space and time, dragging acausal beings back into time, …

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter saying cope isn’t an argument, refute what me and Fuji said about the concept blog if you wanna say it’s explained cause we’ve addressed everything about that in the first place.

 

[StrymULTRA]

containing voids without the concepts of space and time

What about the fact that's, you know, hyperbolic? The fact it's inside a space time already debunks such.

 

[Greenshifter]

saying cope isn’t an argument

Saying my source is bad isn’t an argument either.

What about the fact that's, you know, hyperbolic? The fact it's inside a space time already debunks such.

I have no idea where subspace is accepted to be on VSBW, but I do know concepts are bound by dimensional planes here so not necessarily.

 

[Theglassman12]

When it’s fully refuted without any of the supporters attempting to argue otherwise, I’d have to beg to differ.

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways I do think there is are degrees of impressiveness when it comes to the concepts in DBH, which the blog doesn’t do a good job of explaining. Basically it’s regular concepts <= time < Toki-Toki = Time Power

 

[Greenshifter]

When it’s fully refuted without any of the supporters attempting to argue otherwise, I’d have to beg to differ.

It’s a claim, not an argument, regardless of the status quo

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have no idea where subspace is accepted to be on VSBW, but I do know concepts are bound by dimensional planes here so not necessarily.

Nah. A BDE realm being part of a timeline is kinda dumb by itself.

 

[Greenshifter]

BDE realm

BDE by itself is dumb on VSBW since tier 0 is bound by dimensions.

Nah. A BDE realm being part of a timeline is kinda dumb by itself.

Also my entire point is that time in DBH is more impressive than regular time so you’re inevitably gonna run into dumb shit. Doesn’t mean that it isn’t the case.

 

[Greenshifter]

From the BDE page:

“as a result of being outside of regular time.”

“These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level”

Hypertimeline is a thing

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter still waiting for your refute, if you got nothing to add then I’ll just ask the staff to give their input.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Greenshifter still waiting for your refute, if you got nothing to add then I’ll just ask the staff to give their input.

People are working on a refute, I was merely targeting a small part of Fuji’s post and elaborating on some stuff.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@Greenshifter still waiting for your refute, if you got nothing to add then I’ll just ask the staff to give their input.

People are preparing their refute. Be patient.

 

[Planck69]

There isn't really anything "more impressive" than regular time there.

Hypertimelines, containing voids without the concepts of space and time, dragging acausal beings back into time, …

Hypertimelines aren't "more impressive" than regular time. It's just adjacent temporal dimensions, which is impressive but it doesnt take time being of a better nature to happen. A cube is far larger than a plane and has an extra spatial dimension but the cube's space isn't some higher quality than the plane's.

A void existing within a cosmology also isn't fundamentally making time in that cosmology better or something. It's not even particularly unique to Dragon Ball and that's with the generous assumption that the concepts as we use them are lacking in the first place as opposed to just generally being a true void.

And finally "dragging someone back into time".... doesn't tell me anything. Can they now be paradoxed or what? Is there something actually happening due to that that's beyond what regular temporal shenanigans can do?

Also side note, Tier 0 is no longer bound by dimensions.

 

[Greenshifter]

which is impressive but it doesnt take time being of a better nature to happen.

Yeah it was more some seasoning tbh.

A void existing within a cosmology also isn't fundamentally making time in that cosmology better or something.

I’d argue that time containing something which lacks regular time is impressive.

And finally "dragging someone back into time".... doesn't tell me anything. Can they now be paradoxed or what?

Sure, the reason the demons have acausality is because they are disconnected from time. So naturally they’d lose that ability if they were dragged back into time.

Also side note, Tier 0 is no longer bound by dimensions.

Is the revision completed? A step in the right direction I’d say

 

[Planck69]

I’d argue that time containing something which lacks regular time is impressive.

Sure, the reason the demons have acausality is because they are disconnected from time. So naturally they’d lose that ability if they were dragged back into time.

Is the revision completed? A step in the right direction I’d say

Maybe it is more impressive, maybe it isn't. The point is that in and of itself, it's not some support that time is of some higher fundamental nature. Heck, I've worked on verses with the same situation as here (the Domain of Death in God of War, Desolate Era's Infinite Void, etc.). Its not an endorsement of that encompassing time holding a conceptual nature or anything like that.

Is this demonstrated and/or stated for the demons? The statement "dragged back into time" can mean something as simple as just being chucked back into a timeline, being locked in a universe etc.

Tier 0 itself is still in flux but that much is agreed upon as I understand it.

 

[Greenshifter]

Maybe it is more impressive, maybe it isn't. The point is that in and of itself, it's not some support that time is of some higher fundamental nature.

Fair, it would mostly have to come from containing things which are already accepted as being impressive concepts. Do note that Fuji’s claim was a general one that “time in DBH isn’t more impressive than irl”.

Is this demonstrated and/or stated for the demons? The statement "dragged back into time" can mean something as simple as just being chucked back into a timeline, being locked in a universe etc.

Considering how Fu looks it seems most logical to be referring to his state of existence.

Tier 0 itself is still in flux but that much is agreed upon as I understand it.

I see

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Tbf time is an abstract, DBH’s is just more impressive than regular time

Fax my man. You know, my largest gripe with the most recent exchanges is that they've miraculously entered a misunderstanding where the blog is supposedly arguing that time is conceptual as opposed to the all-encompassing time energy which is the actual primary subject. I honestly thought this was explained pretty clearly in the first section of the blog here:

Conclusion: Time Energy which is the basis for Time Power, gives birth to Time itself, and in turn, both Tokitoki and the Time Scrolls are also Time itself and they are the embodiment of Time Energy

Now that we finally established basic terminologies, it is time for the main explanation.

But then again, Fuji's response skipped over the entire basic terminologies section, so I'm not surprised this section was missed.

It's probably because there was a new argument brought up (only in SDBH side of things for some reason) that there's a space called subspace (which would lack these concepts) which contains these dimensions when the scans just imply that RoSaT and sugoroku space fall under the category of being a subspace instead of being in one.

Such as here where RoSaT and Sugoroku Space are called "subspaces" And with context this just seems to be referring to these realms as subspaces and falling under that category rather than being realms in a greater encompassing subspace.

I knew it! I freaking knew this minor translation war would rear its ugly head!

Hey, those of "you" Dragon Ball supporters (you know who you are), remember when we predicted that someone was going to argue in the future that "subspace" wasn't used to describe a single all-encompassing space between dimensions that housed the Sugoroku space and Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but it was used as a term referring to the multiple pocket dimensions specifically, which would make "no concept of space-time" contradicted by the HTC having an obvious flow of time? Let's be honest, an argument like this was bound to arise when Dragon Ball gained a non-contradicted "transcending the concepts of space-time" argument that would make CSAP scalers froth at the mouth.

Responding to this, although plurals aren't really a notion in the Japanese language, the scan is clearly meant to be interpreted as a single "subspace" existing, with the aforementioned dimensions being mere subsets of this space.

Don't trust ChatGPT? Well that's definitely not all we have to work with.

One scan from DBZ Kakarot (which is inarguably canon to Heroes, and possibly canon to the main continuity) describes the HTC as an "area of subspace."

We also have this chouzenshuu scan bringing up the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and its relationship with the subspace.

Notice that symbol (L)? It stands for location. The Grand Kai's planet here is said to be located in "the beyond," planet Slug is said to be located in "the universe," and the Room of Spirit of Time is said to be located in the subspace. It's pretty consistent that the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Sugoroku Space are not what's being described as "subspaces," as that descriptor is reserved for the space containing them. With that, we can now say that the subspace being conceptually space-timeless is not majorly contradicted.

I highly doubt they are using the word concept in the same sense as the wiki, that means in the sense of literal concept manipulation, instead they seem to be using it in the normal way that humans use the word

Incorrect. There are two kanji primarily used in Chinese/Japanese that translate into English as the word "concept." Those kanji are 观念 and 概念, with the latter being the kanji used in the scan. A quick google of "What is the difference between 观念 and 概念" gives us three different sources, all of which explain that the former kanji is an informal term where "concept" is used in reference to a "notion" or otherwise mundane idea, while the latter kanji (the one in our scan) is a formal term with an academic connotation used in reference to a fundamental truth or abstract universal idea.

That also means that this point:

This is taking the word "concept" overly literally; These places have a "different concept of time" (or absence of it) in the sense that time flows differently there (or not at all), not in the sense that the literal fundamental abstraction of time is different there.

Is entirely moot. This is a purely conjectural assertion. If we needed to be spoonfed a trillion indicators of something being literal in the most mathematical/technical sense, this wiki couldn't function as an indexing site. As long as text is made to be read in a basic literal manner, and has no major contradictions behind it, I see no reason why we can't take information at its face value.

For instance, many people on this site are under the misconception that "boundless/innumerable" are flowery langauge, "endless" sort of means infinite, and "infinite" means literal infinity. In reality, "infinite" is used as a flowery descriptor a truckload of times in English. Executor pointed this out during the translation war over Dragon Ball's infinite universe, as he found fault in the claim that "mugen means literally infinite, while these other terms mean endless" since endless, innumerable, infinite, and all of these terms can mean literal or figuratively infinite depending on context. Let me get straight to the point: if a fictional verse had scans indicating that their universe was infinite, and that statement is not contradicted, should we accept it as infinite? After all, since the notion that "infinite is always literal compared with endless/innumerable" is an obvious lie, I could claim that infinite could serve as flowery text as it often does in English, couldn't I?

Here's another example. By our standards for "when higher dimensions are valid for quantitative superiority," we consider a higher dimension viewing/containing lower ones as infinitesimal to indicate a quantitative gap. However, "infinitesimal" might not literally mean a value infinitely close to zero and is often used as a flowery descriptor for something very small. Are you advocating for all verses which have gained tier 1 through "infinitesimal" statements to be downgraded unless the original phrase used was "mathematically infinitesimal?"

And hey, hey, what exactly is the basis for this "dismissal by hyperbole" sophistry anyway? The raw text comes from a guidebook with an informative reading tone, not some poetic/dramatic media. Where is your contextual evidence for the statement being hyperbolic in the first place? At this point, I'll have to brielfy review the subspace's properties.

In episode 29 of GT, Baby had blasted Goku with a Revenge Death Ball: a sort of dark spirit bomb intended to kill him. In the nick of time however, Kibito Kai manages to save Goku by teleporting him away through Kai Kai. However, the Revenge Death Ball seemed to exert space-warping fallout that forced Goku to fall away and be warped into the Sugoroku Space. This happened amid Kai Kai, which is a technique of interdimensional shift no different from instant transmission and similar dimension-hopping abilities we've seen that traverse space-time. Interestingly, the idea of a Kai Kai/Instant Transmission taking you into a different dimension has been mentioned before. In Budokai Tenkaichi's Opening, Goku and Kid Buu fight within an instant transmission dimension from which time for the outside world is paused. On the Dragon Ball official website, a guest scientist was brought in to explain how the Hyperbolic Time Chamber worked, and he stated that the process of warping in and out of it was likely done through a higher dimensional hyperspace. These two specific evidences are questionable in terms of reliability. On the other hand, Goku and Cooler's instant transmission battle from the 6th Dragon Ball film is described as "passing through a different space transcendent of time." Seeing as the teleportation zone exists physically outside the Sugoroku space's fabric of space-time, it should exist on the same plane as the subspace (or even be the subspace).

'In addition to the worlds shown in figure 1, there exists a subspace outside of all these worlds. Space-time is conceptually nonexistent within this subspace that is positioned between dimensions and detached from all areas. Locations such as the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Sugoroku Space have been identified within this subspace.'

The subspace is described as transcendent of time, specially detached from time, and overall consistenly outside space-time in a unique manner. So I ask you again: what is the basis for assuming that the subspace being "conceptually beyond time" is non-literal? An assertion without evidence is a moot point.

Time maintaining realities is not a basis for Conceptual Manipulation as nothing about this remotely suggests they are concepts and are controlling and maintaining concepts in the first place,

To be blunt, this section is wholly unnecessary. Time is, of course, fundamental to the universe. None of us would be here without time; This does not make it a concept, as many abilities on this wiki - such as the ability to control matter, souls, space, dimensions, and so on - deal with equally fundamental parts of reality, yet are distinctly not concepts. Still, I will humor this section a bit by tackling each segment bit by bit.

Okay, yeah, that's what time does. Nothing too notable

You know, it's funny how the basic terminologies section at the top of the blog established that we weren't arguing for time being conceptual, as much as the time energy/power that creates time and the reality tied to it having a conceptual nature, but what do I know?

at best this is just a universal energy that can extend to reality at best in the same way normal ki does in the mainline series, this doesn't grant them concept hax unless you're gonna tell me with a straight face Ki is concept hax, which you better actually give me all the evidence there is.

False equivalence. A concept is an abstract essence that governs a segment of reality. Ki is an abstract essence, but it does not govern a segment of reality like time power does. It's also funny how you could genuinely argue that souls in Dragon Ball are type 3 conceptual, but the world's not ready yet for that level of basedness.

This is a somewhat deceptive phrasing of what the scans actually say. Time Power does control time (******* obviously), but the parts regarding control over dimensions is fairly odd. This scan refers to ruling over time and space. Demigra states he will conquer the world (please note how he doesn't actually say anything about space-time like the imgur album claims he does). Tokitoki very vaguely saved(?) all the dimensions. The first two scans are blatantly not related to hax of any kind; They are literally referring to just like, ruling over/conquering something. You don't need to have the power to reshape the universe in order to rule over it. The last scan also requires elaboration; How did Tokitoki do this? Is it something they do by existing? Did it require a specific ability? Saying "(x) saved all the dimensions!" is so incredibly vague devoid of context that this is basically nothing. Same deal with the plot synopsis; Saying Tokitoki is responsible for all dimensions could imply a lot of things, not all of which are "Time Power sustains the existence of all dimensions".

I've covered the first few scans in point 2, so I won't repeat myself.

My brother in Christ, you really want to warp the context to avoid admitting that time power sustains/encompasses reality, huh?

• First off, the most hilarious thing you did was claim "Demigra just vaguely said he would rule the world in the scan." Why do I find it funny? Because this seems to be a mistranslation of the raw text and translation, which were provided to you in the blog's set of scans. Seeking out an unreliable translation is a blatantly disingenuous move. The scan originally said he would "become the supreme kai who governs all of time." Why does this matter? Because the supreme kai of time shares a similar nature with Tokitoki in that their existence sustains time and their death would automatically cause all of reality to crumble.
• I also love how you misread the text to imply that Tokitoki sustaining time is vague. The plot synopsis doesn't say Tokitoki is "responsible for all dimensions, but that "he's an important being responsible for the existence of all dimensions." That quote seems to contextualize the other "vague statement" of Tokitoki being "an important being who saves the dimensions," don't you think? Whis even confirmed that Beerus threatening to destroy Tokitoki was like "destroying time itself." Also, also, time out, time out... did Fuji seriously just claim "Tokitoki saving the dimensions is vague because there's no elaboration on how that works, like if it's done by his existence," when a literal scan she purposefully miswrote verbatim says he indeed saves the dimensions just be existing?!
• You're saying that all this talk of "controlling reality" just means governing it/watching over it and not holding the hax and abilities to reshape it, when Tokitoki can recreate reality on the spot and both Demigra and Sealas (upon gaining time power, as seen in the previous scans) were capable of destroying all of existence and reshaping it into their own history based on their subjective desires? The supreme kai of time could also hold all of reality together through sheer strength when it was being collapsed actively.

I find it so... unimaginably hilarious... that your conclusion was "there's a lot of extrapolation and highest-end interpretations" when you blatantly lied about multiple scans and their text to misconstrue them in your favor. I'm honestly disappointed, just disappointed.

This is subjective reality at best, and not particularly relevant to concept hax.

Yes, the fact that possessing time power passively warps the reality around you is a subjective reality feat that was meant to serve as supporting evidence. You know, I was under the impression that a certain someone wanted evidence that "ruling all of space-time" meant having the hax to reshape it and not just vaguely govern it, but once again: what do I know?

However, saying his existence sustains all dimensions simultaneously is uh, wrong? The first scan doesn't say anything about distorting all of space-time, just that there was a distortion in space-time (which, if you aren't aware, doesn't automatically have cosmology spanning range). The second scan also implies a limited area of effect, being limited to a single timeline (it also doesn't mention Tokitoki at all, to be clear).

The purpose of these scans is to illustrate how Tokitoki's time power sustains all of space-time to the point where harming him instantly causes space-time to warp and crumble. Your argument that "these scans say that harming him distorts space-time and not all of space-time" is irrelevant, as we know from the context above that Tokitoki's is responsible for the existence of all dimensions, which tells us that swaths of space-time would be negatively impacted by the harm he receives.

This scan just says "the universe", and not the entire multiverse, as does this scan. It is absurd to me that yall have managed to get away with taking a scan that says "universe" and saying "no guys it totally means the entire multiverse!!!" with nobody calling you out on it, jfc.

"Universe" often means "cosmos" depending on the context. Seeing as once again, Tokitoki was said to be responsible for the existence of all dimensions, and the villains who wield his power become multiversal threats, it's obvious in context that "the fall of Tokitoki means the end of the universe" is referring to all of time and space.

First link is dead. However, this is deceptively posturing time as a more fundamental force due to how it affects the physical world, when like... yeah, no shit? If you get erased from time, you get erased from space as well, since you just... don't exist. That's how existence erasure works; Whether it targets the body, soul, narrative, or what have you, whatever you erase doesn't physically exist because it's just gone; That doesn't mean whatever you erased is conceptually tied to reality. This is especially pertinent to temporal erasure, due to how space and time are linked; If you no longer exist in any "when", you can no longer exist any "where", because time and space are inextricably tied to one another.

Using narrative erasure and history erasure as examples of how "time isn't more fundamental than physical reality" is an odd thing to do an wiki that treats narratives and histories as the most fundamental aspects of existence which may entail the godliest form of regeneration. Either way, this stuff is mostly relevant to information manipulation, which I can get to later.

Okay, so there are dudes with type 2 abstract existence in the verse. Cool. This doesn't mean blowing up a timeline is concept hax.

How many times do I have to repeat myself... the content regarding Janemba's conceptual manipulation was meant to serve as supporting evidence for the nature of evil as it pertained to Sealas's feat. To be fair, this current blog seems to have discarded lots of information regarding Janemba's concept manipulation to make it sound like he just has abstract existence, so let me clarify:

Evil is an abstract idea, not hyperbole or flowery language, but a real abstraction in verse as in many Dragon Ball games Janemba himself is stated to be the Evil Ideas itself - the living definition of it, was stated to be non-corporeal and has no form which no one can see, feel, sense and interact with until "he" take a shape/a form. He also can feed on abstract emotions like resentment and hatred, and will completely turns anyone affected by him into his avatar - the personification of Evil. Janemba is stated to be Evil Ideas given form, the living definition of Evil, the personification of Evil, the "mass" of Evil Ideas, the embodiment of Evil itself.

He's not some vague mass of anger/hatred or anything, but the literal abstract embodiment of evil ideas as they proliferate through reality. Infinite Zamasu is another abstract being who's explicitly said to be a part of history. Janemba and his concept, should also be a part of history. What is my evidence for that, and why is it relevant that time encompasses abstract reality? Like I said, it's to contextualize Sealas's feat, where Sealas confirmed in Dragon Ball Heroes: World Mission that Evil itself is an ever-present fundamental abstract essence of reality that defines an aspect of it which forms evil beings (especially Janemba himself, whose very nature is as described), which in order to get rid of it he need to destroy all of existence through the time scrolls and reshape reality from nothing, scratch.

All of this is predicated on the idea that Sealas is talking about the abstract concept of evil and not like. literally anything else? This is taking a guy saying he's going to get rid of evil and drawing the highest possible interpretation from it with not a whole lot of evidence beyond "I'm going to remake the world so there isn't evil anymore!".

To quote LordGriffin:

As I said before, I'm not really familiar with DBX/DBH but I'm going to say Conceptual Manipulation seems fine (For Janempa at least). The statements for Janempa seem to correlate to him being evil abstraction, andthem refering to him as such so the concept of evil should be a thing. So if they want to get rid of evil, they'd need to be capable of removing the concept of evil... at least that's how I see it.

I don't think that's the only argument for conceptual stuff.

Going from the blog, Janempa is a literal evil entity that has been stated to be formless and made up of evil while feeding on it. One of the characters (Sealas) wants to get rid of all evil in the universe by making a new one with no evil. In order for this to happen, he'd need to make sure the concept of evil doesn't exist, no?

But if he only was aiming to destroy all evil beings then he'd never succeed because if he a new universe is made, an evil person is bound to show up unless the new reality he rewrites lacks the concept of evil. The statments says he wants to reshape reality to exclude/eradicate all evil which won't be possible if the concept of evil still exists because then the inhabitants will not know what evil is as it doesn't exist. At least that's how I see it. Though I see the othet points you are making

Moving on...

Sure, I'll concede on the Causality stuff for Dark Ki but this should just be prep time at best, and I don't really see why this would also scale to one's resistance without any elaboration on such.

I still see no reason why this can't be listed as an overtime hax or at worst, non-combat applicable ability. We index plenty of overtime stuff on the wiki, what makes this any different?

The first set of scans are just the Subjective reality hax you're bringing up again, which btw if you're going to use those then you're gonna have to pick one or the other

That's an interesting notion... why, pray tell, do we have to choose one over the other? Since when is it problematic to index a broad hax feat under different ability categories? At that point, you're admitting we're correct in our judgement of how to categorize that hax, and wanting otherwise is strictly a matter of arbitrary personal preference. This line of reasoning is even worse to push in this case where the multiple abilities have detailed paragraphs with dozens of scans, like... are you genuinely surprised that justifications so long would encompass multiple hax? It saves more space than repeating the same scans over and over for identical abilities, no?

it's either subjective reality or causality manipulation. Saying if you're altering time, you're altering the events just because they mention "history being a set of events that connect" isn't direct causality manipulation, that's just a chain reaction feat at best if we're going to take this very literal without much elaboration on these events being completely warped at will, especially with the subjective reality stuff with the eggs causing distortions based on one's inner thoughts, which is at best subjective reality with this.

How is that a "chain reaction?" If causality is stated to be synonymous with history, then controlling history would entail controlling causality directly. Moreover, how is it not causality manipulation to change the outcome of history and undo/reset any alteration in the timeline, bring history that "went off its course" back to its "correct path", revert all events back to their initial states/states before?

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

It's a pretty simple depiction of undoing events via reversing causality.

Half of the scans hardly pertain to the time scrolls having text, and the "history = plot" scan dump is disengenuous to use when those are literally game story plot synopsis you'd see in any video game ever that has a plot.

Please elaborate on how not a single scan here indicates enveloping history as written text: Time Scroll is a Book with all of time & history written in it; with these histories being texts, stories, plots, films.

The negation of restoration I have a problem with this upscaling way up to High godly when at no point does time power or Mechi have any indication of being comparable to or being able to negate Zamasu's regen in DBH.

So your line of reasoning is "that doesn't make sense in my head," basically an argument from incredulity, nice. The logic is pretty straightforward: time power's abilities and resistances (including power null) increase with its immensity, so stronger time power should be able to negate the high godly restoration capacity of weaker time power.

And the injuries being healed is just because time itself is being reverted, there's a big difference between "everything is turning back to the way it was" and "I've reformed by entire existence back after being erased".

At this point, we're appealing to technicalities. Although restoration doesn't have the same subcategories as regeneration, I want to know why in this instance, "high godly restoration" wouldn't entail similar things to "high godly regeneration." I don't see why killing someone with low-godly would become less impressive because they regenerate from their soul by reversing their body through time (as you would with low-godly restoration) rather than accelerating their body through time (as you would with regeneration).

Affecting the stuff in the time scroll isn't an argument here when the tokipedia and time scrolls are two distinct different things in the first place.

I feel like we're running in circles here:

Fu has something called the Tokipedia which was revealed by him to actually be a copy of a Time Scroll made by his hands which functions exactly like the real one. You can even see how it looks exactly like a real Time Scroll.

Next:

It's stated to be a specific version of the time scroll that Fu himself invented

But:

The common counter-argument for the Tokipedia and the Time Scrolls being the same is that the Time Scrolls didn't record the Time Rifts like the Tokipedia did, hency why the Tokipedia was called the "time rift edition" of the scrolls; however, this is not because the Scrolls are unable to record the Time Rifts. In the very first Time Rift timeline where Demigra was the Supreme Kai of Time instead of Chronoa, the Time Scrolls of that false timeline were more than capable of recording this very same Time Rift[2], which further solidifies the Scrolls and the Tokipedia being the same as both can record Time Rifts just fine.

Then:

again where's the proof that time scrolls can control and manipulate data here in the first place? Because the lack of scans of them doing the same thing tokipedia does doesn't help.

This is bonafide special pleading. The evidence for the time scrolls manipulating data is the fact that the tokipedia which does that was stated to perfectly replicate the time scrolls' functions. Let me send that question back your way now: what is the evidence for time scrolls being incapable of controlling data?

Oh, mortals created the Ziku world? So you're telling me that time power itself doesn't actually have full control over this if someone else made it in the first place, meaning this shouldn't scale to time power if that's the case.

The scrolls of eternity record everything from the beginnings to the ends of time and space. They even recorded the nonexistent histories as soon as they spontaneously arose into existence. Seems pretty arbitrary to single out the Ziku world as a history/space-time outside the scrolls' dominion.

Are you going to remotely prove that the other time users are able to do the exact same things that time bird does like with his existence sustaining timelines or their reincarnations birthing other timelines at all? Because the fact you're not giving me any evidence doesn't help your point when this is just "oh he just happens to have this energy" so everyone scales despite there needing to be some evidence when there's a clear distinction between a normal time user and the time bird itself.

Time power isn't a product of Tokitoki, Tokitoki is a product of time power as he was born of his own eggs from which raw time energy is meant to spawn, with Tokitoki being described as an existence equivalent to "time itself." That's what I feel like a lot of opponents are missing here: Tokitoki isn't the concept of time, as much as he's a manifestation of time energy (the actual concept of time) whose higher-level existence we're analyzing to explain how time energy exists relative to physical time and reality.

As for the argument that "you can't scale regular time power to Tokitoki's hax," well... the potency of time energy's powers and abilities parallel attack potency and the amount of time power held. Although it's hard to gauge Tokitoki's power level since he's not a fighter, it's implied that despite his unique position in maintaining space-time, he's not the strongest character physically. Demigra could one-shot him easily, and even after fusing with Tokitoki and claiming his power, he was defeated by the XV1 Future Warrior, who would proceed to fight on par with regular powerhouse characters like XV2 Trunks and XV2 Future Warrior. In other words Tokitoki being the target of every major villain is more likely due to his unique temporal existence (hence why the same Mechikabura who already absorbed all of space-time and reality still needed Tokitoki to ensure the irreversible end of time) than raw time power, and since time power's abilities are based on its potency, and plenty of time power users could scale above Tokitoki, there's not too much leading us to believe that things like law manipulation would be unique to the god birds.

Hell, you wanted evidence for other time power users doing anything remotely similar to Tokitoki's "sustaining timelines" ordeal to feel confident in generalizing hax? Well, base form Chronoa, who's fodder to basically everyone, after becoming Supreme Kai of Time and gaining Time Power, also behaves like Tokitoki, with her death meaning the multiverse also goes down with her and she herself alone can keep all of time from crumbling into nothingness.

You're not giving me anything here about this granting people immortality at all. Again having "protection" doesn't mean being immortal unless you can prove they actually become immortal in the first place.

I mean, this immortality bestowal is described as a blessing (with the word bearing a passive connotation), rendering it type 8 immortality at worst.

Creating a space without concepts does NOT mean you are capable of erasing concepts. It just means it was never a part of the world to begin with; For example, I can bake a cake without human flesh in it, but that doesn't mean I have some special existence erasing power. It just means I didn't add a certain ingredient, just as Time Power users aren't erasing concepts, but rather, simply not adding one. Choosing to "not add" something and choosing to "subtract" something are different processes.

This analogy doesn't work when our all-encompassing force is the literal power of time. If we were dealing with all-encompassing energy X in a vacuum, you could argue that creating a void out of it wouldn't require "removing space-time" as much as not adding it in the first place. However, since the essence of this all-encompassing energy is literal space-time energy, creating a void out of it would indeed entail "removing space-time" rather than not adding it, since space-time is the inalienable basis. In a similar sense, creating a conceptually space-timeless void out of literal time would require removing the concepts of time (which exist in the first place) rather than just not including it when making the void.

Manipulation: interacting with and controlling pre-existing elements.

Creation: strictly bringing something into existence.

 

[Planck69]

So was that the final major reply or is there more?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Incorrect. There are two kanji primarily used in Chinese/Japanese that translate into English as the word "concept." Those kanji are 观念 and 概念, with the latter being the kanji used in the scan. A quick google of "What is the difference between 观念 and 概念" gives us three different sources, all of which explain that the former kanji is an informal term where "concept" is used in reference to a "notion" or otherwise mundane idea, while the latter kanji (the one in our scan) is a formal term with an academic connotation used in reference to a fundamental truth or abstract universal idea.

No it does not only mean an abstract governing force.

概念 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

 

[Theglassman12]

@ProfectusInfinity Did you read my comment at all or did you just skim it over? Because my comment has nothing to with it not being a non combat applicable hax, my point is that this shouldn't scale to resistance. Actually read my post before you assume what I've said.

Because trying to extrapolate numerous abilities based on how one set of scans which do not make it explicit that it's both subjective reality and Causality Manipulation at the same time isn't going to help when you need extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. If I said you're correct on how you categorized your own hax I wouldn't have told you to actually make up your mind for once so the fact you couldn't understand that baffles me.

The fact that this distortion that made another new reality has everything to do with trunk's inner desire to save gohan which is the chain reaction in the first place? Nothing that Chronoa or tokitoki has anything from them to imply that they literally warped the events to give Trunks the desire outcome he wanted.

So you didn't actually read what I said about the scans for text hax, great. Good to know you refuse to tackle what my complaints in the blog for time power was in the first place, which is the fact you took this set of screenshots about a plot synopsis to argue history contains plot, which has nothing to do with the plot of the timelines but plot of the actual game itself. Maybe actually read for once what I'm saying instead of skimming it through.

Read what I said about the negation, I never said "it doesn't make sense in my head", I said that nothing in the explanation remotely implies that time power can do what the universe seed/tree can do against zamasu when all of that is made of assumptions, same with Mechikabura's regen somehow scaling to Fused Zamasu with no proof he's comparable to him in regen or immortality.

Reverting something back in time has absolutely nothing to do with regeneration in the first place when you're not reconstructing your body from nothing, it's just rewinding the clock back to before things got destroyed, which has no bearing on regen.

That's not how burden of proof works, the burden of proof is on you that time scrolls can control information and data in the first place, if you're not going to actually prove it beyond just repeating the same points over and over again then this conversation is basically over.

So again, no proof that the Ziku world is manipulating actual data and just saying more "it's in a time scroll because that's how realities are made" argument, so more Creation feats you keep repeating over and over again.

So more of repeating the exact same thing over and over again, the stuff I've already refuted in the first place. Are you going to actually give me some proof that normal time users can do exactly what tokitoki can do or no? Because all you're doing is repeating what GodofICE has already said.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I just came and what this thread turned into...