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DBH abilities: Electric Boogaloo

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Okay, so according to @ProfectusInfinity, Time Power is conceptual because it is completely distinct from time, governing and creating it. Let me examine that claim more closely -
  • Let's start with these four scans. These form the basis of Time Power as a unique thing; The idea that there is an abstract energy that governs can creates time.
    • First scan is quite vague. It doesn't mention Time Energy/Power at all, just that Tokitoki's egg has some kind of energy in it. This doesn't really imply anything by itself.
    • Second scan is where I have a major issue, though. "This egg has the energy to create time". That is the basis for an abstract temporal energy here, but this is extremely deceptive. For starters, having the energy to create something does not mean that "energy" is an abstract force that governs time directly; Energy could be used to create and control time, sure, but regular ki (also a kind of energy) can also do that in Dragon Ball. Many verses have characters use some kind of energy source to create and manipulate many things, but that doesn't inherently mean that energy controls the very concept of what it creates (eg; using mana to cast a fire spell doesn't mean mana governs the concept of fire or whatever). Even ignoring that though, "energy" is a broad term, even in Japanese - The scan could also be read as "the ability to create time", "the strength to create time", "the power to create time", and so on. None of those would imply that there is an energy source that controls time, rather, that the egg simply... gives birth to time.
    • The third scan does not mention Time Power at all.
    • The last scan does not mention Time Power at all.
  • Later, we're told that Tokitoki's eggs give birth to time (as well as Tokitoki itself), which when combined with the above scans, is used to conclude that Tokitoki is Time Power itself. This conclusion misses a massive issue with its own internal logic, though; See, Tokitoki is referred to as "time itself". Not Time Power, mind you, but simply time. This means, if one were to conclude that Time Power and Tokitoki are one and the same, then Time Power must also be time itself; Not an abstraction of it, not a governing force, but merely time as it exists. In other words, if Tokitoki = time, and Time Power = Tokitoki, then it logically follows that Time Power = time, which massively contradicts Profectus' claim.
    • Of course, I need to cover these scans too, right? Well uh, not really? They do confirm that "time power" is a real thing in the verse, but they present a massive host of issues. First is that many scans (such as these) are simply characters saying they'll release their power or something similar; That could mean literally anything, and concluding that it must be related to Time Power is absurd and based on nothing. But the bigger issue is how this correlates to everything I said prior; Everything that ties back to time governing existence does not mention Time Power, while the scans that DO mention Time Power do not establish that it governs existence. There is a massive disconnect between how Time Power is depicted in the series and how DBH supporters would like people to believe it's depicted. When Time Power is mentioned, it's depicted as some vague power that allows one to control time. It isn't "energy", it doesn't govern time itself, it's just a power-up that lets one get stronger and use time-based abilities.
    • This scan supposedly mentions "raw temporal energy", but nothing like that is stated at all. It's just a time stop.
    • These scans also exist, and claim that Time Scrolls are made of Time Power. This is uh, not true? The vast majority of scans in this album mention no such thing, and are merely demonstrations of characters creating, destroying, or messing with Time Scrolls. The only thing implying the connection between Time Power and Time Scrolls is Demigra, who absorbs the scrolls and gains a "Time Power Unleashed" form. For starters, absorbing something and gaining power from it does not mean whatever you absorbed is literally made of the power you gain. But more importantly, Demigra never states the Time Scrolls are Time Power like the album says he does; He just says he regained the power of time, which does NOT mean Time Scrolls are literally made of that power. The album also claims the new form he gained requires enormous amounts of Time Power to sustain; That would be a solid piece of supporting evidence, if it were actually true. Nothing in the album actually says this, so whoever made the album just... made that up, for some reason?
    • There's also this set of scans, which is way, way more egregious. First scan is Chronoa commenting on space-time attacks. No mention of Time Power is made in the scan itself; However, the Imgur album insists that it ties back to Time Power, somehow? Same for the next two scans, which have no implication of Time Power being involved, yet it's claimed that they are a showcase of Time Power in action. Agios stating "He destroyed the frozen space-time..." is somehow misconstrued as "His Time Power destroyed the frozen space-time...", even though the scan very obviously doesn't say or even imply that. The game screenshots make explicit mention of power nullification, yet the album claims this is due to Time Power despite nothing actually saying or implying that. This scan is just a dude with a glowing aura that is claimed to be Time Power for reasons I cannot even begin to comprehend.
      • I need to call special attention to this scan, which as the Imgur album puts it, shows "Time Power from Tokitoki sealing away Gods of Destruction's Hakai passively via his energy". That is explicitly not what's happening. The exact quote is "the bird of calamity's ki is clinging around us!". His KI - something that is not Time Power - caused those effects, yet the Imgur album decides to just ignore that. Why? Genuinely, this is so easy to check that I'm surprised nobody caught it until now. BUT IT TURNS OUT, IF SOMETHING IS EASY TO CHECK, NOBODY ACTUALLY DOES-
      • In a similar vein to the above album, this one makes a lot of claims that X can outhax Y because of greater Time Power. This is never actually stated in ANY scan, except for the one where Fu mentions he absorbed Tokitoki; However, if that scan can indeed be attributed to greater Time Power, then that ties back to what I said earlier, where Tokitoki being literal Time Power means Time Power is time itself, and not an abstract force governing it.
But you wanna know the funniest part? You're sitting here claiming that Time Power is NOT time, and is something else, but
image.png

THAT'S NOT EVEN WHAT THE BLOG SAYS???

TL;DR: You are defending a blog which contradicts itself at the most fundamental level, makes extraordinary claims with 0 evidence, and directly contradicts your own conclusion. It really doesn't get much worse than this! I uh, got way off topic here I think, but goddamn this verse is such a tangled knot of absurd claims that it's hard for me to not get off topic.
 
No amount of bad english can account for discrepancies like "ki" somehow magically becoming "Time Power". That's more along the lines of what we professional VS debaters call "lying".
 
Ok I am just gonna say this destroyer weren't aware it was time bird you can see they also called it bird of calamity so they have might mistaken his time power as ki you can even see in toki toki profile the bird doesn't have ki
 
Since we're being accused of making stuff up.

His Time Power destroyed the frozen space-time
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We never claimed that. That's like claiming UI Goku has Time Power,which we never did. Why was the wording changed, if I may ask?

Also, if permitted, I'd like to ask Fujiwara to tone down the passive aggressive attitude. It's unneeded, especially coming from someone who's fully convinced they're in the right.
 
Don't want to add fuel to the fire but I do remember Ben Shapiro calling out Mad Dog for trying to accuse DBH supporters of "frauding" or in a better word lying about layers. Again I am not trying to escalate this issue but you shouldn't let your personal feelings cloud your judgement. I do even remember you saying you hate DBH so there's that. Let's just be respectful please.
 
Gamin_Yoon23 said:
Don't want to add fuel to the fire but I do remember Ben Shapiro calling out Mad Dog for trying to accuse DBH supporters of "frauding" or in a better word lying about layers. Again I am not trying to escalate this issue but you shouldn't let your personal feelings cloud your judgement. I do even remember you saying you hate DBH so there's that. Let's just be respectful please.
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This, there's no need to be this hostile.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Since we're being accused of making stuff up.

We never claimed that. That's like claiming UI Goku has Time Power,which we never did. Why was the wording changed, if I may ask?
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Bro, the album literally say, verbatim, "Agios stated TIME POWER froze/stopped space-time". The scan makes zero mention of Time Power. The wording wasn't changed. The point remains that the album is concluding something that is not even so much as implied in the original text.
Killerdrone123 said:
Ok I am just gonna say this destroyer weren't aware it was time bird you can see they also called it bird of calamity so they have might mistaken his time power as ki you can even see in toki toki profile the bird doesn't have ki
Click to expand...
1. This still doesn't mean anything, since it's saying that Time Power was responsible for the power null, when no, nothing actually says that.
2. Is there actual evidence that Tokitoki doesn't have ki - something that is, to my knowledge, extremely common within Dragon Ball - or is that something you're coming up with on the spot to try and explain away an inconvenient inconsistency?
Gamin_Yoon23 said:
Don't want to add fuel to the fire but I do remember Ben Shapiro calling out Mad Dog for trying to accuse DBH supporters of "frauding" or in a better word lying about layers. Again I am not trying to escalate this issue but you shouldn't let your personal feelings cloud your judgement. I do even remember you saying you hate DBH so there's that. Let's just be respectful please.
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I am nothing if not a hater~
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Bro, the album literally say, verbatim, "Agios stated TIME POWER froze/stopped space-time". The scan makes zero mention of Time Power. The wording wasn't changed. The point remains that the album is concluding something that is not even so much as implied in the original text.

1. This still doesn't mean anything, since it's saying that Time Power was responsible for the power null, when no, nothing actually says that.
2. Is there actual evidence that Tokitoki doesn't have ki - something that is, to my knowledge, extremely common within Dragon Ball - or is that something you're coming up with on the spot to try and explain away an inconvenient inconsistency?

I am nothing if not a hater~
Click to expand...
1.Time power is it's own ues toki toki is made from time energy which time power constitute of
2.Toki toki has never shown any instances of having ki of also ki doesn't have powernull but you know what does have powernull time power and what does toki toki only possess time power
 
Killerdrone123 said:
1.Time power is it's own ues toki toki is made from time energy which time power constitute of
Click to expand...
1. That still does not mean Time Power was causing the power null in that scene.
2. So, you admit that Time Power and time are one and the same, seeing as Tokitoki is both Time Power and time itself?
Killerdrone123 said:
2.Toki toki has never shown any instances of having ki of also ki doesn't have powernull but you know what does have powernull time power and what does toki toki only possess time power
Click to expand...
Ngl this point doesn't make any sense, because the scan in contention here IS an instance of Tokitoki having ki. If it's a mistranslation, prove it, otherwise, be quiet.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
1. That still does not mean Time Power was causing the power null in that scene.
2. So, you admit that Time Power and time are one and the same, seeing as Tokitoki is both Time Power and time itself?

Ngl this point doesn't make any sense, because the scan in contention here IS an instance of Tokitoki having ki. If it's a mistranslation, prove it, otherwise, be quiet.
Click to expand...
It is not mistranslation more so lack of context on your side I have clearly explained why g.o.d weren't aware it was time bird and mistook his power for ki

I further also proved why it was time power by the fact that it nullified there power something which ki can't do and only time power in toki toki arsenal can do
 
Killerdrone123 said:
I further also proved why it was time power by the fact that it nullified there power something which ki can't do and only time power in toki toki arsenal can do
Click to expand...
"Ki can't do this, even though we have a scan explicitly saying that ki is doing the thing I'm claiming it can't do". Never have I seen such blatant denial of canon in pursuit of upgrades, good lord.
Killerdrone123 said:
It is not mistranslation more so lack of context on your side I have clearly explained why g.o.d weren't aware it was time bird and mistook his power for ki
Click to expand...
If it's not a mistranslation, then every other explanation you put forward is headcanon. As of now, there is no reason to discredit this statement.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Bro, the album literally say, verbatim, "Agios stated TIME POWER froze/stopped space-time". The scan makes zero mention of Time Power. The wording wasn't changed. The point remains that the album is concluding something that is not even so much as implied in the original text.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was. You said "His time power" as if implying Goku had it. Regardless of that... Freeze, Time Rail,Time Judgment,Time Destruction,Time Labyrinth...those are "Space-time techniques", which is just a fancy way of addressing the spells used by Time Power users. Saying they're because they're called difference is none other than a name fallacy.

The "Time Power Unleashed" form is another thing that is pretty straightforward.

Note that every Time Power with a little bit of mastery has shown these abilities. Ranging from Chronoa to Fuu, to Aeos and the two Time Birds,and even the likes of Demigra. They're also regarded as the Time God's power.

Also, in the same album,as you can see, Freeze is said to be one of many techniques. Considering these techniques are said to be the Time God's power, this is pretty obviously in reference to the Power of Time.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I am nothing if not a hater~
Click to expand...
You okay, Fujiwara? You sure you haven't played too much Touhou or something? It's not healthy, y'know.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
"Ki can't do this, even though we have a scan explicitly saying that ki is doing the thing I'm claiming it can't do". Never have I seen such blatant denial of canon in pursuit of upgrades, good lord.

If it's not a mistranslation, then every other explanation you put forward is headcanon. As of now, there is no reason to discredit this statement.
Click to expand...
Oh lol so you are clearly gonna ignore the fact that I told you that destroyers weren't aware of his powers and mistook time power for ki context matters here which you are clearly sidelining for the specific wording which could literally be explained this scan literally proves that they weren't aware that it was toki toki,toki toki not having ki,ki never showing any instances of power null also the fact that whis said that they made a big mistake regarding toki toki supports my argument more




 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Yeah, it was. You said "His time power" as if implying Goku had it. Regardless of that... Freeze, Time Rail,Time Judgment,Time Destruction,Time Labyrinth...those are "Space-time techniques", which is just a fancy way of addressing the spells used by Time Power users. Saying they're because they're called difference is none other than a name fallacy.
Click to expand...
Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that the scan doesn't mention Time Power at all, and then the album insists it is somehow related to Time Power. That is disingenuous at best, and lying at worst.
Killerdrone123 said:
Oh lol so you are clearly gonna ignore the fact that I told you that destroyers weren't aware of his powers and mistook time power for ki context matters here which you are clearly sidelining for the specific wording which could literally be explained this scan literally proves that they weren't aware that it was toki toki,toki toki not having ki,ki never showing any instances of power null also the fact that whis said that they made a big mistake regarding toki toki supports my argument more


Click to expand...

"Weren't aware of his powers" my brother in christ damn near everybody in Dragon Ball can use ki sensing, of course they'd know if Tokitoki has ki or not.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
You okay, Fujiwara? You sure you haven't played too much Touhou or something? It's not healthy, y'know.
Click to expand...
One of my resolutions for 2024 was to be even more insane than I was in 2023.
 
Well I might aswell point out quickly that the Narrator did state that the "Powers of Time Clash" referring to the upcoming Chronoa vs Aios fight, and literally the only thing they do in that fight is that they use space-time techniques against each other like the Freeze technique. So the "Time Powers clashing" quote from the Narrator would be in direct reference to the space-time techniques that the two clashed with, meaning they use Time Power for these techniques

Edit: It seems like I completely forgot the part where Time Power Unleashed Chronoa very directly stated that she was going to use her remaining Time Power to seal Mechikabura in the Time Labyrinth, which is a space-time technique that seals people and was stated to be the Time Gods power as Ottavio pointed out. Pretty blatant clarification that they use Time Power for their space-time techniques and that Time Gods power = Time Power
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
Fax my man👌💯. You know, my largest gripe with the most recent exchanges is that they've miraculously entered a misunderstanding where the blog is supposedly arguing that time is conceptual as opposed to the all-encompassing time energy which is the actual primary subject. I honestly thought this was explained pretty clearly in the first section of the blog here:

But then again, Fuji's response skipped over the entire basic terminologies section, so I'm not surprised this section was missed.

200w.gif

I knew it! I freaking knew this minor translation war would rear its ugly head!

Hey, those of "you" Dragon Ball supporters (you know who you are), remember when we predicted that someone was going to argue in the future that "subspace" wasn't used to describe a single all-encompassing space between dimensions that housed the Sugoroku space and Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but it was used as a term referring to the multiple pocket dimensions specifically, which would make "no concept of space-time" contradicted by the HTC having an obvious flow of time? Let's be honest, an argument like this was bound to arise when Dragon Ball gained a non-contradicted "transcending the concepts of space-time" argument that would make CSAP scalers froth at the mouth.

Responding to this, although plurals aren't really a notion in the Japanese language, the scan is clearly meant to be interpreted as a single "subspace" existing, with the aforementioned dimensions being mere subsets of this space.

Don't trust ChatGPT? Well that's definitely not all we have to work with.

One scan from DBZ Kakarot (which is inarguably canon to Heroes, and possibly canon to the main continuity) describes the HTC as an "area of subspace."

We also have this chouzenshuu scan bringing up the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and its relationship with the subspace.

Notice that symbol (L)? It stands for location. The Grand Kai's planet here is said to be located in "the beyond," planet Slug is said to be located in "the universe," and the Room of Spirit of Time is said to be located in the subspace. It's pretty consistent that the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Sugoroku Space are not what's being described as "subspaces," as that descriptor is reserved for the space containing them. With that, we can now say that the subspace being conceptually space-timeless is not majorly contradicted.

side-to-side-finger-wag-qrhiw1r94gqs3mlv.gif

Incorrect. There are two kanji primarily used in Chinese/Japanese that translate into English as the word "concept." Those kanji are 观念 and 概念, with the latter being the kanji used in the scan. A quick google of "What is the difference between 观念 and 概念" gives us three different sources, all of which explain that the former kanji is an informal term where "concept" is used in reference to a "notion" or otherwise mundane idea, while the latter kanji (the one in our scan) is a formal term with an academic connotation used in reference to a fundamental truth or abstract universal idea.

That also means that this point:

Is entirely moot. This is a purely conjectural assertion. If we needed to be spoonfed a trillion indicators of something being literal in the most mathematical/technical sense, this wiki couldn't function as an indexing site. As long as text is made to be read in a basic literal manner, and has no major contradictions behind it, I see no reason why we can't take information at its face value.

For instance, many people on this site are under the misconception that "boundless/innumerable" are flowery langauge, "endless" sort of means infinite, and "infinite" means literal infinity. In reality, "infinite" is used as a flowery descriptor a truckload of times in English. Executor pointed this out during the translation war over Dragon Ball's infinite universe, as he found fault in the claim that "mugen means literally infinite, while these other terms mean endless" since endless, innumerable, infinite, and all of these terms can mean literal or figuratively infinite depending on context. Let me get straight to the point: if a fictional verse had scans indicating that their universe was infinite, and that statement is not contradicted, should we accept it as infinite? After all, since the notion that "infinite is always literal compared with endless/innumerable" is an obvious lie, I could claim that infinite could serve as flowery text as it often does in English, couldn't I?

Here's another example. By our standards for "when higher dimensions are valid for quantitative superiority," we consider a higher dimension viewing/containing lower ones as infinitesimal to indicate a quantitative gap. However, "infinitesimal" might not literally mean a value infinitely close to zero and is often used as a flowery descriptor for something very small. Are you advocating for all verses which have gained tier 1 through "infinitesimal" statements to be downgraded unless the original phrase used was "mathematically infinitesimal?"

And hey, hey, what exactly is the basis for this "dismissal by hyperbole" sophistry anyway? The raw text comes from a guidebook with an informative reading tone, not some poetic/dramatic media. Where is your contextual evidence for the statement being hyperbolic in the first place? At this point, I'll have to brielfy review the subspace's properties.


The subspace is described as transcendent of time, specially detached from time, and overall consistenly outside space-time in a unique manner. So I ask you again: what is the basis for assuming that the subspace being "conceptually beyond time" is non-literal? An assertion without evidence is a moot point.



You know, it's funny how the basic terminologies section at the top of the blog established that we weren't arguing for time being conceptual, as much as the time energy/power that creates time and the reality tied to it having a conceptual nature, but what do I know?

False equivalence. A concept is an abstract essence that governs a segment of reality. Ki is an abstract essence, but it does not govern a segment of reality like time power does. It's also funny how you could genuinely argue that souls in Dragon Ball are type 3 conceptual, but the world's not ready yet for that level of basedness.


ac83106ff7058eb7224ef5166299c1ba.png

My brother in Christ, you really want to warp the context to avoid admitting that time power sustains/encompasses reality, huh?
I find it so... unimaginably hilarious... that your conclusion was "there's a lot of extrapolation and highest-end interpretations" when you blatantly lied about multiple scans and their text to misconstrue them in your favor. I'm honestly disappointed, just disappointed.

Yes, the fact that possessing time power passively warps the reality around you is a subjective reality feat that was meant to serve as supporting evidence. You know, I was under the impression that a certain someone wanted evidence that "ruling all of space-time" meant having the hax to reshape it and not just vaguely govern it, but once again: what do I know?

The purpose of these scans is to illustrate how Tokitoki's time power sustains all of space-time to the point where harming him instantly causes space-time to warp and crumble. Your argument that "these scans say that harming him distorts space-time and not all of space-time" is irrelevant, as we know from the context above that Tokitoki's is responsible for the existence of all dimensions, which tells us that swaths of space-time would be negatively impacted by the harm he receives.

"Universe" often means "cosmos" depending on the context. Seeing as once again, Tokitoki was said to be responsible for the existence of all dimensions, and the villains who wield his power become multiversal threats, it's obvious in context that "the fall of Tokitoki means the end of the universe" is referring to all of time and space.

Using narrative erasure and history erasure as examples of how "time isn't more fundamental than physical reality" is an odd thing to do an wiki that treats narratives and histories as the most fundamental aspects of existence which may entail the godliest form of regeneration. Either way, this stuff is mostly relevant to information manipulation, which I can get to later.

How many times do I have to repeat myself... the content regarding Janemba's conceptual manipulation was meant to serve as supporting evidence for the nature of evil as it pertained to Sealas's feat. To be fair, this current blog seems to have discarded lots of information regarding Janemba's concept manipulation to make it sound like he just has abstract existence, so let me clarify:

He's not some vague mass of anger/hatred or anything, but the literal abstract embodiment of evil ideas as they proliferate through reality. Infinite Zamasu is another abstract being who's explicitly said to be a part of history. Janemba and his concept, should also be a part of history. What is my evidence for that, and why is it relevant that time encompasses abstract reality? Like I said, it's to contextualize Sealas's feat, where Sealas confirmed in Dragon Ball Heroes: World Mission that Evil itself is an ever-present fundamental abstract essence of reality that defines an aspect of it which forms evil beings (especially Janemba himself, whose very nature is as described), which in order to get rid of it he need to destroy all of existence through the time scrolls and reshape reality from nothing, scratch.

To quote LordGriffin:



Moving on...

I still see no reason why this can't be listed as an overtime hax or at worst, non-combat applicable ability. We index plenty of overtime stuff on the wiki, what makes this any different?

That's an interesting notion... why, pray tell, do we have to choose one over the other? Since when is it problematic to index a broad hax feat under different ability categories? At that point, you're admitting we're correct in our judgement of how to categorize that hax, and wanting otherwise is strictly a matter of arbitrary personal preference. This line of reasoning is even worse to push in this case where the multiple abilities have detailed paragraphs with dozens of scans, like... are you genuinely surprised that justifications so long would encompass multiple hax? It saves more space than repeating the same scans over and over for identical abilities, no?

How is that a "chain reaction?" If causality is stated to be synonymous with history, then controlling history would entail controlling causality directly. Moreover, how is it not causality manipulation to change the outcome of history and undo/reset any alteration in the timeline, bring history that "went off its course" back to its "correct path", revert all events back to their initial states/states before?

It's a pretty simple depiction of undoing events via reversing causality.

Please elaborate on how not a single scan here indicates enveloping history as written text: Time Scroll is a Book with all of time & history written in it; with these histories being texts, stories, plots, films.

So your line of reasoning is "that doesn't make sense in my head," basically an argument from incredulity, nice. The logic is pretty straightforward: time power's abilities and resistances (including power null) increase with its immensity, so stronger time power should be able to negate the high godly restoration capacity of weaker time power.

At this point, we're appealing to technicalities. Although restoration doesn't have the same subcategories as regeneration, I want to know why in this instance, "high godly restoration" wouldn't entail similar things to "high godly regeneration." I don't see why killing someone with low-godly would become less impressive because they regenerate from their soul by reversing their body through time (as you would with low-godly restoration) rather than accelerating their body through time (as you would with regeneration).

I feel like we're running in circles here:

Next:

But:

Then:

This is bonafide special pleading. The evidence for the time scrolls manipulating data is the fact that the tokipedia which does that was stated to perfectly replicate the time scrolls' functions. Let me send that question back your way now: what is the evidence for time scrolls being incapable of controlling data?

The scrolls of eternity record everything from the beginnings to the ends of time and space. They even recorded the nonexistent histories as soon as they spontaneously arose into existence. Seems pretty arbitrary to single out the Ziku world as a history/space-time outside the scrolls' dominion.

Time power isn't a product of Tokitoki, Tokitoki is a product of time power as he was born of his own eggs from which raw time energy is meant to spawn, with Tokitoki being described as an existence equivalent to "time itself." That's what I feel like a lot of opponents are missing here: Tokitoki isn't the concept of time, as much as he's a manifestation of time energy (the actual concept of time) whose higher-level existence we're analyzing to explain how time energy exists relative to physical time and reality.

As for the argument that "you can't scale regular time power to Tokitoki's hax," well... the potency of time energy's powers and abilities parallel attack potency and the amount of time power held. Although it's hard to gauge Tokitoki's power level since he's not a fighter, it's implied that despite his unique position in maintaining space-time, he's not the strongest character physically. Demigra could one-shot him easily, and even after fusing with Tokitoki and claiming his power, he was defeated by the XV1 Future Warrior, who would proceed to fight on par with regular powerhouse characters like XV2 Trunks and XV2 Future Warrior. In other words Tokitoki being the target of every major villain is more likely due to his unique temporal existence (hence why the same Mechikabura who already absorbed all of space-time and reality still needed Tokitoki to ensure the irreversible end of time) than raw time power, and since time power's abilities are based on its potency, and plenty of time power users could scale above Tokitoki, there's not too much leading us to believe that things like law manipulation would be unique to the god birds.

Hell, you wanted evidence for other time power users doing anything remotely similar to Tokitoki's "sustaining timelines" ordeal to feel confident in generalizing hax? Well, base form Chronoa, who's fodder to basically everyone, after becoming Supreme Kai of Time and gaining Time Power, also behaves like Tokitoki, with her death meaning the multiverse also goes down with her and she herself alone can keep all of time from crumbling into nothingness.

I mean, this immortality bestowal is described as a blessing (with the word bearing a passive connotation), rendering it type 8 immortality at worst.

This analogy doesn't work when our all-encompassing force is the literal power of time. If we were dealing with all-encompassing energy X in a vacuum, you could argue that creating a void out of it wouldn't require "removing space-time" as much as not adding it in the first place. However, since the essence of this all-encompassing energy is literal space-time energy, creating a void out of it would indeed entail "removing space-time" rather than not adding it, since space-time is the inalienable basis. In a similar sense, creating a conceptually space-timeless void out of literal time would require removing the concepts of time (which exist in the first place) rather than just not including it when making the void.

Manipulation: interacting with and controlling pre-existing elements.

Creation: strictly bringing something into existence.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
 
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