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DB World and Zen'o Tier Revisions

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I agree with this. The DB universes sharing spacetime is overanalyzed and an I think they should be treated as the writers intended until we get explicit contradictory information. Whis being able to reach another universe with flight is a poor justification, since Whis is capable of opening portals
 
Can we wait a bit before this gets out of hand? I want to give input, but am currently busy, and as such would like to later create a full on staff discussion about this. I fear that if this is open to everyone, it will undoubtedly attract those people.
 
Very interesting. I will have a look at this sometime soon.

It seems that reading the comments in the blog, Zeno is getting upgraded to 2-C however due to him busting the afterlife?

Makes me wonder why there are different versions of Zeno in different timelines (as we know that there are more than one Zenos)
 
I still thinking that all the universes share the same space-time, but I could agree with the 2-C ranking due destroying the afterlife. However, before that I should ask: weren't the afterlife also at risk due Goku and Beerus? about the Kaioshin realms, it seems that can be accessed with common fly, or at least it should access one universe before that.
 
Because Zeno isn't a cosmic being, he's just a really strong guy. People were hyping him into a Multi-Dimensional ruler of the cosmos before he ever did anything in the series.
 
Oh yeah Matt, in regards to your comment on the Afterlife being separate from the mortal universes, I actually brought up points before on why I didnt think that.

Could you please look them over and give me your opinion on them when you get a chance? They should be in thisthis thread IIRC.

EDIT: Not just matt but I would like other staff members to please look them over as only very few got a chance to read them I believe. I could be wrong.
 
"As you can see, the universes are obviously not physically away from each other, as you can notice them being all in their proper "bubble" thing. Notice the black space in between each universe? This further proves my point."

Two things here.

  • If they are separate space-times, they certainly are not infinite as they have a cut-off
  • Just because they are in different bubbles in no way proves they are separate space-times any more than the Moon and Sun being different spheres proves they are separate space-times
"This is yet another instance which proves the universe are indeed away from each other in regards to both space and time."

The fact light could physically touch both universes means they are not separated like that, unless the light can portal through to other space-times.

"Where was it shown or hinted that the each timeline affects all of the universes?"

The fact Zeno was able to destroy all 12 universes in one timeline but not another means that timelines are not contained within universes, but outside of them.

I do agree that Zeno did destroy the space-time in FT's timeline though.
 
LordXcano

Actually it is said in the guide books that the universes are infinite and that the kaioshin realm orbied around that infinite universe how could that work if they were on the same space time?
 
The universes aren't infinite, they are bubbles with clear beginnings and ends. Earth is said to be at the edge of the universe, you can cross from one universe to another.

The same guidebooks that said they are infinite also said they had 4 galaxies, so it is a clear poetic language meant to convey that they are big.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The universes aren't infinite, they are bubbles with clear beginnings and ends. Earth is said to be at the edge of the universe, you can cross from one universe to another.

The same guidebooks that said they are infinite also said they had 4 galaxies, so it is a clear poetic language meant to convey that they are big.
Click to expand...
Yes however these would each make perfect sense If when we see the universes from the out side that we are seeing them from a forth dimensional point of view and the edges are just were the timelines connect.
 
LordXcano "The fact light could physically touch both universes means they are not separated like that, unless the light can portal through to other space-times."

Could be exactly as you said. Who knows? After all, this a magical dragon summoned across 2 universes, it would make sense for him to outshine the both of them, not just physically, but even from outside of the universes. Even if that wasn't the case, there is nothing to prove the universes are physically away from each other. It's a mere claim, a claim with no basis

"The fact Zeno was able to destroy all 12 universes in one timeline but not another means that timelines are not contained within universes, but outside of them."

Doesn't prove that the universes within said timeline share the same space-time. The timeline is more like 1 multiverse, containing several universes inside, each independent from the other.
 
Your claiming the light penerating 2 universes doenst mean they aren't separate space-times as the light could just penerate space-times.

What evidence proves this when they simply could penerate the universes due to them being connected?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Well as far as Super Shenron goes, what proves his light can penetrate space-time instead of proving the universes are connected?
Click to expand...
Now, that sound like overthinking to me.

We already discussed that universes are, indeed, just areas of one bigger universe, the discussion now depends if destroying the afterlife could be considered 2-C.
 
Antoniofer said:
We already discussed that universes are, indeed, just areas of one bigger universe, the discussion now depends if destroying the afterlife could be considered 2-C.
Click to expand...
Well Ant I made points refruting this explaining why I don't think destroying them is 2-C because I don't think they are separate from the mortal universe as a separate space-time.

If you can, could you please look over my points? I can post them here if you want as only very few staff members got the chance to look them over.
 
The fact that the light was seen by Goku and co is the proof. But, then again, what proves the universes being connected in the first place? Besides, it didn't just penetrate it from the inside, it engulfed half of the 2 universes from the inside as well.

https://youtu.be/3CnMK3Aucd0?t=217
 
Welp, we already concluded that universes share space-time due being located at a finite distance at each others, and has a finite size; the Dragon summon just showed a view of the frontier between both universes, still a minor detail.

What the satff is discussing now is that we should rate rate him 2-C due destroying the afterlife, that is a "macrocosm" apart from the universe(s).
 
Antoniofer said:
Welp, we already concluded that universes share space-time due being located at a finite distance at each others, and has a finite size; the Dragon summon just showed a view of the frontier between both universes, still a minor detail.

What the satff is discussing now is that we should rate rate him 2-C due destroying the afterlife, that is a "macrocosm" apart from the universe(s).
Click to expand...
The thing is alot of people still disagree with that
 
@Darkmon Just because a lot of people disagree with it does not mean anything.

@Kukui Ant agrees to the points Matt and Ryu made.
 
Although I disagree with the staff's decision about this "space-time sharing thing", I still respect your opinions about this.

But I'd like to say something about this whole afterlife thing, addressed first by someone else, and I quote:

"How come Zeno would be 2-C for that feat when Goku and Beerus, who would've done that same thing (destroy the afterlife and Kaioshin Realm), are a solid 3-A? It's essentially the same, except whereas Zeno is destroying multiple, Goku and Beerus combined are destroying one DB Macroverse, which includes afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm. Due to that feat requiring Goku's power times 2, Goku should be Universal+ based on that same logic, should he not?"
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
@Kukui Ant agrees to the points Matt and Ryu made.
Click to expand...
Im aware of that, but I would still like to know if my points have any place here as when I first brought them up, very few staff (I think maybe 1 or 2?) got to read them and they werent discussed much at all.

I have no problem with them being dismissed or debunked I just want to know what the other staff think of them.
 
Thank you Dragon. Anyway, here's why I think the Afterlife isnt really separated from the mortal universe:

1. The most common point is Goku and Beerus's shockwaves they created during their battle being able to reach both realms (well the kaioshin realm anyway). Now, from what I know, wouldnt Beerus and Goku's fighting somewhat prove that they are connected to the mortal universe? Afterall, the shockwaves released by their battle were even able to transverse into the kaioshin realm and if they were totally separate, then the shockwaves happening on a level such as the mortal universe would be impossible to go into separate space-times. Furthermore, if Goku and Beerus were able to make shockwaves at that magnitude, then I'd say its safe to assume that if Beerus were to ever go up against someone powerful like Champa, then they too would be able to make shockwaves, if not, stronger ones than the ones Goku produced in his fight with Beerus, by a large magnitude. Yet, the fight between Beerus and Champa (in both the anime and manga) are only stated by Whis/Vados to be able to destroy both U7 and U6. The threat of their fighting, which is logically far more dangerous than Beerus's fight with Goku, is never portrayed as being able to reach different space-times such as the Kaioshin realm. In addition to this, If their shockwaves were able to transverse space-time, then why has something like the ROSAT room, a pocket dimension that is also a separate space-time, never hinted to be destroyed as well? It shouldnt make any sense that a realm near the size of a whole universe can be threatend by Goku and Beerus's clash from an entire plane away but not a realm thats planet sized at best and far closer to the range of their battling. And incase anyone brings up the Gotenks and Buu scenerio's, they only created a portal which connected the ROSAT to U7 so they could pass through as they please. So their attacks didnt really cross space-time, otherwise everyone at the lookout would have felt their fighting. Plus its as Sid said. We rate the fight between Goku and Beerus, including the shockwaves, as 3-A and have not accepted them to be Low 2-C. Unless an upgrade is in order, wouldnt 3-A shockwaves going into another plane just further suggest that the plane is connected to the mortal universe since 3-A power can affect it?

2. IIRC, Goku been consistently shown to be able to sense the KI signatures of beings like Supreme Kai and King Kai even from the mortal universe. That should be completely impossible if the Kaioshin Realm/Otherworld were separate space-times. And before anyone says "Goku's energy sensing can go beyond space-time", this shouldnt be correct really. After all, he wasnt able to sense Gotenks and Buu fighting in the ROSAT, another separate space-time. In addition, I seem to remember Goku once having trouble sensing the New Planet Namek when trying to find Dende because it was too far for him to sense their Ki. New Namek, a planet thats in the same dimensional realm as Goku himself. He needed to go all the way to King Kai's in order to get a better range of KI sensing to find it (plus King Kai pointing him in the right direction). So if Goku couldnt even sense one far away planet in the same universe as himself, I highly doubt he should be able to sense beings from an entire space-time away.... And incase anyone brings up a point such as King Kai being able to sense them from his home, remember King Kai is a Kai and an observer of the universe. Same thing with the other kais, normal or supreme. It makes perfect sense that deities such as them can sense beyond space-time, especially if its in a realm that they themselves watch over and preserve. For example, Supreme Kai told everyone that unlike Goku who needs to sense Ki, his teleportation wasnt limited he could go anywhere he wanted in U7. All because of him being a Kai. And we see proof to this when they used him to get to Namek and use Porunga to help Goku beat Buu. Basically, you could say Goku shouldnt be sensing them, but they can be sensing him.

3. Now, please correct me if im mistaken, but I remember when Goku took Cell to King Kai's world to blow himself up there and not on earth, the explosion was even seeable from the mortal universe (i'll try and find the vid that shows this if you want). Now that should also be completely impossible if they were separate space-times as not only would we not be able to see it, we wouldnt even be able to sense it either. And considering Cell at that time was, what 4-B? His power should have been no where near great enough to be able to penerate realms. We have never seen something like this until Super Shenrons light was bright up to light up 2 universes.

Here are my points. Are they okay or are they too flawed?
 
The afterlife has been stated and depicted multiple times to be separate from the main universe.

The fact that Goku and Beerus's shockwave can travel into the afterlife doesn't automatically erase or contradict this. What it indicates is that their shockwaves have unquantifiable hax and range. Which is what we have always listed this as.

If there are two separate realms that are stated and depicted as separate, the fact that there are attacks that can reach it doesn't mean they are no longer separate. It's like saying since characters like Hulk have made attacks that reach parallel universes, they are no longer parallel universes and all timelines share the same space-time.

TLDR: An attack crossing two separate realms doesn't mean the realms are one. It means exactly what is implied, that the attack can cross two separate realms.
 
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