Dante's Immeasurable justifications

[Agnaa]

Then we simply can just create him a new key for this amp

This suggestion does not make sense with the discussion at hand.

 

[Ningenron]

Why's this still open? Isn't 2 thread mods and 2 admins agreement enough?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Why's this still open? Isn't 2 thread mods and 2 admins agreement enough?

Deciding a replacement. You done your part hence now you can sit there on the corner and chillax e.t.c.

 

[Golden_Void]

Your points would be valid if this was a case where they were argued to be moving at infinite speed all the time, with no amps involved, but that's not what's happening here.

I don't think demonic power is an amp in the way you're considering it. We don't rate Dante differently across all his styles, which are all different applications of the same power. As the scan says above, Fury's speed combines his physical body and demonic power. I'm not arguing that Fury is infinite in all states of existence. Obviously, he can stand still and prepare his attacks, which isn't infinite. Fury walking, standing still, and preparing to lunge into his next attacks are his only non-speedy movements. I would imagine characters are allowed to do that.

Demonic power is inherently present in demons, which enhances their physical abilities. It can be concentrated for a super-enhanced movement, but it's never not there.

Here we see how his reflexes, his agility and his speed are becoming slower, sloppier as he grows weaker by the second when he is being stripped of his demonic power

I don't think an instance of a character being dumb and letting an opponent power up means that we should dismiss all antifeats as them "trolling".

But hey, I don't think I'm gonna convince you on that, so I'll go back to a harder reason for them not scaling; that it's a movement ability Dante doesn't scale to rather than their ordinary state.

No, this is completely different from those cases. This is a character using a supposedly infinite speed amp, yet not getting blitzed without it.

Dante literally trolls everybody and maintains his lackadaisical demeanor. You would have to not know his character at all to argue this. Letting Urizen eat the fruit is clear PIS. Trolling Urizen before getting one shot twice is another example. But I said trolling regarding lesser demons and boss demons in general, not Urizen's PIS case.

Fury also doesn't have multiple states, as you seem to suggest. It has one form. And Dante intercepted it while his back was turned. It sounds like you're arguing that Dante has to blitz Fury if it's possible that he can, and that is an arbitrary requirement. I would also argue that Dante did know where Fury was the entire time. This is similar to the Blitz scene in DMC4.

And if we take the end-game cutscene in the demon world as evidence, Dante and Vergil were effortlessly one-tapping waves of demons after just finishing fighting multiple rounds against each other, and Fury is among those demons.

No, that's not what that means.

Both the English and Japanese suggest otherwise. There's no mention of or allusion to Fury needing to build up to his max speed anywhere.

What needs to be settled from that? Is there a particular part of the official translation you're suspicious of?

The teleportation part, but we seem to agree on speed now.

Killing someone who can temporarily move at very high speeds doesn't mean that you scale to those very high speeds. Especially if those movement abilities have drawbacks (not letting them maneuver arbitrarily, having a windup, having an indicator of where they'll appear).

Where is it stated that Fury's ability needs to be wound up and that there are restrictions on it moving freely? Even if I were to agree that Fury does dash around to build up speed before his final attack, reacting to Dante's response immediately after building up its speed would mean it has reaction/perception speeds equivalent to its top combat speed. And it still lost. I haven't seen direct indicators of where it would appear, though, in a 1 on 1 fight, it's obvious what Fury's intentions are.

No.

Moving fast and not having the reactions to match would mean Fury would be reckless and uncontrolled, which is directly refuted since it throws feint dashes at Dante. These movements exemplify control and precision.

 

[Agnaa]

Dante literally trolls everybody and maintains his lackadaisical demeanor. You would have to not know his character at all to argue this. Letting Urizen eat the fruit is clear PIS. Trolling Urizen before getting one shot twice is another example. But I said trolling regarding lesser demons and boss demons in general, not Urizen's PIS case.

I don't know his character at all. If you think DMC knowledge would be an important part of resolving this thread, I can go to neutral and unfollow this thread.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I feel like we shouldn’t been deliberately going into circles again when this has enough staff agreements to pass and we might as well make a new thread just to avoid clutter this thread even further

 

[Golden_Void]

I don't know his character at all. If you think DMC knowledge would be an important part of resolving this thread, I can go to neutral and unfollow this thread.

In answering "why doesn't Dante just blitz Fury then?" his character is 100% the reason why.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In answering "why doesn't Dante just blitz Fury then?" his character is 100% the reason why.

Based on what?

Even if we go by the whole “trolling” angle, that still doesn’t discount what happened in all the cutscenes of DMC 5.

I just find this insufficient to explain the other events that occurred during DMC5 or hell. Any of the other DMC games that involve Dante fighting Vergil every time.


Again, I don’t see how this will been appropriate for anything here.

Anyway, we already have enough agreement on the table to remove the Immeasurable speed justification and this is all I see right here

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Speaking of which, he fight off Vergil (His corrupted form) on two or three separate occasions in DMC 1

 

[Agnaa]

In answering "why doesn't Dante just blitz Fury then?" his character is 100% the reason why.

Then the evidence you've provided for that (a case of PIS, a case of shittalk before a fight, and a description of a form establishing it as stronger) is insufficient.

I don't think demonic power is an amp in the way you're considering it. We don't rate Dante differently across all his styles, which are all different applications of the same power.

If you want to derail this thread into the specifics of how a current profile operate you can, but I think that'd just bloat this thread way past the point that any new staff member would want to bother evaluating it.

As the scan says above, Fury's speed combines his physical body and demonic power.

Which specific scan are you talking about? There have been many posted in this thread, and I don't remember any that are obviously like that.

Demonic power is inherently present in demons, which enhances their physical abilities. It can be concentrated for a super-enhanced movement, but it's never not there.

If you use 100 energy to dash at 2,000x speed, that doesn't mean that the 5 energy/second you ambiently use makes you 2,000x faster. That's a basic aspect of how universal energy systems work.

Fury also doesn't have multiple states, as you seem to suggest. It has one form.

I was just talking about "using the ability" and "not using the ability", as there are distinct visuals for one and the other indicating when it's being used.

And Dante intercepted it while his back was turned.

He didn't intercept it, he intercepted Fury's attack after the dash ended, which took additional winding up.

And if we take the end-game cutscene in the demon world as evidence, Dante and Vergil were effortlessly one-tapping waves of demons after just finishing fighting multiple rounds against each other, and Fury is among those demons.

It's a bit hard to tell due to how quick it is, but I don't see them scaling to Fury's dash in there.

Both the English and Japanese suggest otherwise. There's no mention of or allusion to Fury needing to build up to his max speed anywhere.

I'm lost now, where did this argument come from? What claim of mine are you responding to?

Where is it stated that Fury's ability needs to be wound up and that there are restrictions on it moving freely?

It's not stated, but I see it in the gameplay visuals. It takes time to occur, and the final blows of attacks are only done outside of it.

Even if I were to agree that Fury does dash around to build up speed before his final attack

I find this hard to understand. I don't think that Fury needs to dash to get faster to launch an attack. And I don't know what I could've said to make you think I believe that.

reacting to Dante's response immediately after building up its speed would mean it has reaction/perception speeds equivalent to its top combat speed.

What scene are you talking about?

I haven't seen direct indicators of where it would appear

Watch the gameplay visuals I linked above or the cutscene. There's a black mist before Fury forms out of it.

Moving fast and not having the reactions to match would mean Fury would be reckless and uncontrolled, which is directly refuted since it throws feint dashes at Dante.

No. Reactions involve processing information about new obstacles that appear at that speed, and changing course in turn. Throwing feints does not require that.

Speaking of which, he fight off Vergil (His corrupted form) on two or three separate occasions in DMC 1

What is the point of you posting this? Please explain how this relates to the thread or I'll delete it.

 

[Palito266]

If you guys really don't want immeasurable just chuck it as an outlier, seeing how the verse has more MHS-FTL feats than Immeasurable.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

takes time to occur, and the final blows of attacks are only done outside of it.

Btw, after we got introduced to Fury, Dante straightup fought Fury in a scripted gameplay during story mode

 

[HammerStrikes219]

What is the point of you posting this? Please explain how this relates to the thread or I'll delete it.

I mostly proving the point that he still fights despite him “trolling” around to supplement the point that his character/personality shouldn’t been used when it comes to actual fights and speed feats.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I don't know his character at all. If you think DMC knowledge would be an important part of resolving this thread, I can go to neutral and unfollow this thread.

When it comes to lower level demons, which often includes most bosses, their performance relative to Dante or even Nero has no bearing on comparison of abilities unless we explicitly see the character struggling. Their gameplay performance has even less bearing.

Basically the seemingly superior speed of the lesser demon is typically because Dante deliberately moves slower. That's why he can clearly react to the Fury while it's dashing. Remember we see him troll the incoming Fury in the cutscene by pointing his finger instead of his gun.

 

[Agnaa]

If you guys really don't want immeasurable just chuck it as an outlier, seeing how the verse has more MHS-FTL feats than Immeasurable.

Outliers aren't determined by the number of feats, but by the presence of relevant anti-feats. Otherwise almost every verse would be wall level for all the incidental & casual wall-busts that occur.

That's why he can clearly react to the Fury while it's dashing.

Where? The cutscene only has him turning his head after Fury dashes through the area, or interrupting Fury after the dash ends and they're winding up an attack.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, 0:18 mark of the video I posted is when we see Dante react after Fury done dashing and lunging at Dante

 

[Employe]

I'm curious how much else here are fake and wronged scans and scaling on DMC profiles

And did this MFTL+ calc got debunked?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm curious how much else here are fake and wronged scans and scaling on DMC profiles

And did this MFTL+ calc got debunked?

It didn't... It's just the method is not validated enough which we personally admit but never cared enough about to update it till recently.

Also this Argo scan itself isn't faked, just sementics.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm curious how much else here are fake and wronged scans and scaling on DMC profiles

And did this MFTL+ calc got debunked?

The "fake" is from PoC game developed by a Chinese game dev, the scans posted on this thread is from official manga and game which you can find everywhere on internet unlike the obscure PoC 1.0 which is limited to China only

 

[Golden_Void]

Then the evidence you've provided for that (a case of PIS, a case of shittalk before a fight, and a description of a form establishing it as stronger) is insufficient.

It's not because, as I said, you're arbitrarily suggesting that a character must blitz another character if they have the means. They don't have to do that. Show me anything that states otherwise because, at the very minimum, Character B would need to be comparable to not constantly get blitzed by Character A.

If you want to derail this thread into the specifics of how a current profile operate you can, but I think that'd just bloat this thread way past the point that any new staff member would want to bother evaluating it.

Such a CRT would be pointless to exist. Dante's styles are ways of letting the player use his large moveset. They're figurative.

Which specific scan are you talking about? There have been many posted in this thread, and I don't remember any that are obviously like that.

The Japanese scan I posted earlier that DMUA also linked the translation to.

If you use 100 energy to dash at 2,000x speed, that doesn't mean that the 5 energy/second you ambiently use makes you 2,000x faster. That's a basic aspect of how universal energy systems work.

That would be the case if your analogy were directly comparable. The scan says its speed is a combination of physicals + DE. The logical conclusion that follows using Occam's Razor is that since Fury can spam this technique endlessly in a fight, it doesn't cost much energy. For reference, movement in any of the main cast minus V costs 0 energy, even if the move description says it uses demonic power (or any other lesser demon I can remember, to be honest.) In contrast, they have plenty of moves that take energy from their devil trigger (demonic energy) gauge.

I was just talking about "using the ability" and "not using the ability", as there are distinct visuals for one and the other indicating when it's being used.

You said Fury was using an infinite speed amp yet not getting blitzed (which I partially addressed in point 1.) The only distinct, concrete visual is that its eyes glow, with or without the blade arm option. It even precedes its afterimage/ghost/whatever ability if you want to mention that. Its eyes were still glowing when it dodged Dante's finger mid-air, meaning if that's what you want to attribute its speed to, it was still using it at that moment. The black mist is mostly a trailing indicator, as shown when Fury's trails rapidly approached Dante while it had not yet revealed itself.

He didn't intercept it, he intercepted Fury's attack after the dash ended, which took additional winding up.

The momentum doesn't end when the dash does. Run -> lunge -> momentum carried through. This also assumes that Fury was running around to build speed (which, again, isn't shown or stated) rather than trying to disorient his prey, which fits nicely with all the fakes it throws out. This time, I am assuming you mean Fury was winding up by running because his physical form wasn't shown once prior to jumping at Dante.

This further assumes that Dante wasn't playing possum the entire time and only identified Fury as a threat when it was 2 feet away, which wouldn't make sense if you're suggesting Dante couldn't track it while he was running around a giant arena, considering angular velocity is much lower at range than close up, and Fury was behind him.

Then, if you watch the video in slow motion, Dante objectively moves his arm faster than Fury's overall speed, and Fury doesn't even react until Dante's arm is fully outstretched.

It's a bit hard to tell due to how quick it is, but I don't see them scaling to Fury's dash in there.

It's an implicit feat. Every demon was getting one shot effortlessly. The only contention here is the belief that Fury would not get clapped just as easily as the horde before it or the other few demons attacking Vergil simultaneously.

I'm lost now, where did this argument come from? What claim of mine are you responding to?

I said, "The file states this is a generational evolution ability, which means this ability is their baseline." You said that's not what that means.

I essentially said neither translation suggests otherwise, which takes precedence over game mechanics. Fury's introduction scene showcased him being practically invisible and moving around the stage constantly until it went to attack Dante, which is 16 seconds of cinematic time. And it was not shown "winding up" beforehand. Granted, it appeared from off-screen, but its actions already clash with the game mechanics. Those 1-second pop-ups that it does in gameplay are nowhere near the cutscene actions.

It's not stated, but I see it in the gameplay visuals. It takes time to occur, and the final blows of attacks are only done outside of it.

See the above. Also, Fury left an afterimage before his eyes started glowing.

I find this hard to understand. I don't think that Fury needs to dash to get faster to launch an attack. And I don't know what I could've said to make you think I believe that.

You said, "Even if the movement ability has drawbacks," so here, I assume you mean when it's standing still, preparing to attack. Even so, after doing its glowy eye wind-up thing once, Fury can spam successive dashes and even immediately recover from being knocked mid-air with its speed, which disagrees with needing to charge up to attack.

What scene are you talking about?

When Dante puts his finger in its face and Fury bounces back immediately.

No. Reactions involve processing information about new obstacles that appear at that speed, and changing course in turn. Throwing feints does not require that.

But Fury can clearly maneuver during his movements, which are non-linear. It's how it knew when to materialize and attack Dante at the perfect moment.

Watch the gameplay visuals I linked above or the cutscene. There's a black mist before Fury forms out of it.

Dante reacts to Fury without looking at it, which makes this topic (visual indicators) irrelevant.

 

[Employe]

The "fake" is from PoC game developed by a Chinese game dev, the scans posted on this thread is from official manga and game which you can find everywhere on internet unlike the obscure PoC 1.0 which is limited to China only

What I'm saying, this scan (And scaling steaming from it) still was wrong due to mistranslation

 

[HammerStrikes219]

What I'm saying, this scan (And scaling steaming from it) still was wrong due to mistranslation

Post in thread 'Devils Do Cry: Peak of Conspiracy'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/devils-do-cry-peak-of-conspiracy.160099/post-6130118


Here is the thread that goes over the scans related to POC and thus shouldn’t have any bearing in this thread when it was discussed last year for this.

Conclusion is the scans used from POC 1.0 was deemed fake.

 

[Employe]

Post in thread 'Devils Do Cry: Peak of Conspiracy'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/devils-do-cry-peak-of-conspiracy.160099/post-6130118


Here is the thread that goes over the scans related to POC and thus shouldn’t have any bearing in this thread when it was discussed last year for this.

Conclusion is the scans used from POC 1.0 was deemed fake.

But what about MFTL+ feat?

 

[Agnaa]

It's not because, as I said, you're arbitrarily suggesting that a character must blitz another character if they have the means. They don't have to do that. Show me anything that states otherwise because, at the very minimum, Character B would need to be comparable to not constantly get blitzed by Character A.

idk how the idea that an infinitely faster character should blitz the slower one in a fight is arbitrary. We don't have that written down since we don't detail every unique situation like that.

That would be the case if your analogy were directly comparable. The scan says its speed is a combination of physicals + DE. The logical conclusion that follows using Occam's Razor is that since Fury can spam this technique endlessly in a fight, it doesn't cost much energy.

Sure, not much, but seemingly more than their passive existence.

You said Fury was using an infinite speed amp yet not getting blitzed (which I partially addressed in point 1.) The only distinct, concrete visual is that its eyes glow, with or without the blade arm option. It even precedes its afterimage/ghost/whatever ability if you want to mention that.

I don't know how you can think that's the only distinct/concrete visual.

Plus I think attributing that to just the speed seems weird, considering how it happens in the cutscene when it pulls its blade arm out. I'd guess it's more of a general demonic energy use thing.

Its eyes were still glowing when it dodged Dante's finger mid-air, meaning if that's what you want to attribute its speed to, it was still using it at that moment.

Its eyes are always glowing to some extent, but they didn't flare up in that moment.

The momentum doesn't end when the dash does. Run -> lunge -> momentum carried through.

I disagree, it looks to be moving slower than it was while charging.

This also assumes that Fury was running around to build speed (which, again, isn't shown or stated) rather than trying to disorient his prey, which fits nicely with all the fakes it throws out.

No it doesn't? I have no clue what you're talking about.

This time, I am assuming you mean Fury was winding up by running because his physical form wasn't shown once prior to jumping at Dante.

No, I mean that Fury is swinging its arm. Winding up that attack.

This further assumes that Dante wasn't playing possum the entire time and only identified Fury as a threat when it was 2 feet away, which wouldn't make sense if you're suggesting Dante couldn't track it while he was running around a giant arena, considering angular velocity is much lower at range than close up, and Fury was behind him.

I don't know what you're talking about. Dante turned and identified after the movement ability wasn't being used any more; being able to track Fury then and not earlier isn't a contradiction, since the movement ability presumably adds a lot more than the distance would.

Then, if you watch the video in slow motion, Dante objectively moves his arm faster than Fury's overall speed, and Fury doesn't even react until Dante's arm is fully outstretched.

After Fury was out of the movement ability, which would presumably make it slower.

It's an implicit feat. Every demon was getting one shot effortlessly. The only contention here is the belief that Fury would not get clapped just as easily as the horde before it or the other few demons attacking Vergil simultaneously.

Durability =/= speed.

I said, "The file states this is a generational evolution ability, which means this ability is their baseline." You said that's not what that means.

• "They evolved this ability, so it's their baseline speed."
• "No, that's not what that means."
• "There's no mention of Fury needing to build up to their max speed."
• "Where did that come from?"

I see now. So to clarify.

You can evolve an ability which grants you extra movement speed, without that movement speed being something you have without using that ability, and without you needing to run around for 5 minutes before you reach your maximum speed.

I essentially said neither translation suggests otherwise, which takes precedence over game mechanics. Fury's introduction scene showcased him being practically invisible and moving around the stage constantly until it went to attack Dante, which is 16 seconds of cinematic time. And it was not shown "winding up" beforehand

I don't know what you're talking about.

Granted, it appeared from off-screen, but its actions already clash with the game mechanics. Those 1-second pop-ups that it does in gameplay are nowhere near the cutscene actions.

It seems pretty similar to me tbh. Dashing around in dark streaks, before appearing in a solid form to attack.

Also, Fury left an afterimage before his eyes started glowing.

I don't see the importance of this.

You said, "Even if the movement ability has drawbacks," so here, I assume you mean when it's standing still, preparing to attack. Even so, after doing its glowy eye wind-up thing once, Fury can spam successive dashes and even immediately recover from being knocked mid-air with its speed, which disagrees with needing to charge up to attack.

How?

Being able to use a movement ability multiple times, and being able to use that ability after being hit, don't contradict the idea of them not being able to attack during that movement ability.

But Fury can clearly maneuver during his movements, which are non-linear. It's how it knew when to materialize and attack Dante at the perfect moment.

Moving in curves doesn't require you to react during the movement.

Materializing where a person who isn't moving is standing doesn't require you to react during the movement.

Dante reacts to Fury without looking at it, which makes this topic (visual indicators) irrelevant.

Your original point in this chain was "Dante beat Fury in a fight, so he scales", so it is kinda relevant.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

But what about MFTL+ feat?

That came from the mainline game DMC 1 and should been fine