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Dante's Immeasurable justifications
- Thread starter Ningenron
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Deciding a replacement. You done your part hence now you can sit there on the corner and chillax e.t.c.
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I don't think demonic power is an amp in the way you're considering it. We don't rate Dante differently across all his styles, which are all different applications of the same power. As the scan says above, Fury's speed combines his physical body and demonic power. I'm not arguing that Fury is infinite in all states of existence. Obviously, he can stand still and prepare his attacks, which isn't infinite. Fury walking, standing still, and preparing to lunge into his next attacks are his only non-speedy movements. I would imagine characters are allowed to do that.
Demonic power is inherently present in demons, which enhances their physical abilities. It can be concentrated for a super-enhanced movement, but it's never not there.
Dante literally trolls everybody and maintains his lackadaisical demeanor. You would have to not know his character at all to argue this. Letting Urizen eat the fruit is clear PIS. Trolling Urizen before getting one shot twice is another example. But I said trolling regarding lesser demons and boss demons in general, not Urizen's PIS case.
Fury also doesn't have multiple states, as you seem to suggest. It has one form. And Dante intercepted it while his back was turned. It sounds like you're arguing that Dante has to blitz Fury if it's possible that he can, and that is an arbitrary requirement. I would also argue that Dante did know where Fury was the entire time. This is similar to the Blitz scene in DMC4.
And if we take the end-game cutscene in the demon world as evidence, Dante and Vergil were effortlessly one-tapping waves of demons after just finishing fighting multiple rounds against each other, and Fury is among those demons.
Both the English and Japanese suggest otherwise. There's no mention of or allusion to Fury needing to build up to his max speed anywhere.
The teleportation part, but we seem to agree on speed now.
Where is it stated that Fury's ability needs to be wound up and that there are restrictions on it moving freely? Even if I were to agree that Fury does dash around to build up speed before his final attack, reacting to Dante's response immediately after building up its speed would mean it has reaction/perception speeds equivalent to its top combat speed. And it still lost. I haven't seen direct indicators of where it would appear, though, in a 1 on 1 fight, it's obvious what Fury's intentions are.
Moving fast and not having the reactions to match would mean Fury would be reckless and uncontrolled, which is directly refuted since it throws feint dashes at Dante. These movements exemplify control and precision.
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I don't know his character at all. If you think DMC knowledge would be an important part of resolving this thread, I can go to neutral and unfollow this thread.
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I feel like we shouldn’t been deliberately going into circles again when this has enough staff agreements to pass and we might as well make a new thread just to avoid clutter this thread even further
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In answering "why doesn't Dante just blitz Fury then?" his character is 100% the reason why.
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Based on what?
Even if we go by the whole “trolling” angle, that still doesn’t discount what happened in all the cutscenes of DMC 5.
I just find this insufficient to explain the other events that occurred during DMC5 or hell. Any of the other DMC games that involve Dante fighting Vergil every time.
Again, I don’t see how this will been appropriate for anything here.
Anyway, we already have enough agreement on the table to remove the Immeasurable speed justification and this is all I see right here
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Speaking of which, he fight off Vergil (His corrupted form) on two or three separate occasions in DMC 1
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Then the evidence you've provided for that (a case of PIS, a case of shittalk before a fight, and a description of a form establishing it as stronger) is insufficient.
If you want to derail this thread into the specifics of how a current profile operate you can, but I think that'd just bloat this thread way past the point that any new staff member would want to bother evaluating it.
Which specific scan are you talking about? There have been many posted in this thread, and I don't remember any that are obviously like that.
If you use 100 energy to dash at 2,000x speed, that doesn't mean that the 5 energy/second you ambiently use makes you 2,000x faster. That's a basic aspect of how universal energy systems work.
I was just talking about "using the ability" and "not using the ability", as there are distinct visuals for one and the other indicating when it's being used.
He didn't intercept it, he intercepted Fury's attack after the dash ended, which took additional winding up.
It's a bit hard to tell due to how quick it is, but I don't see them scaling to Fury's dash in there.
I'm lost now, where did this argument come from? What claim of mine are you responding to?
It's not stated, but I see it in the gameplay visuals. It takes time to occur, and the final blows of attacks are only done outside of it.
I find this hard to understand. I don't think that Fury needs to dash to get faster to launch an attack. And I don't know what I could've said to make you think I believe that.
What scene are you talking about?
Watch the gameplay visuals I linked above or the cutscene. There's a black mist before Fury forms out of it.
No. Reactions involve processing information about new obstacles that appear at that speed, and changing course in turn. Throwing feints does not require that.
What is the point of you posting this? Please explain how this relates to the thread or I'll delete it.
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Btw, after we got introduced to Fury, Dante straightup fought Fury in a scripted gameplay during story mode
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I mostly proving the point that he still fights despite him “trolling” around to supplement the point that his character/personality shouldn’t been used when it comes to actual fights and speed feats.
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When it comes to lower level demons, which often includes most bosses, their performance relative to Dante or even Nero has no bearing on comparison of abilities unless we explicitly see the character struggling. Their gameplay performance has even less bearing.
Basically the seemingly superior speed of the lesser demon is typically because Dante deliberately moves slower. That's why he can clearly react to the Fury while it's dashing. Remember we see him troll the incoming Fury in the cutscene by pointing his finger instead of his gun.
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Outliers aren't determined by the number of feats, but by the presence of relevant anti-feats. Otherwise almost every verse would be wall level for all the incidental & casual wall-busts that occur.
Where? The cutscene only has him turning his head after Fury dashes through the area, or interrupting Fury after the dash ends and they're winding up an attack.
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It didn't... It's just the method is not validated enough which we personally admit but never cared enough about to update it till recently.
Also this Argo scan itself isn't faked, just sementics.
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The "fake" is from PoC game developed by a Chinese game dev, the scans posted on this thread is from official manga and game which you can find everywhere on internet unlike the obscure PoC 1.0 which is limited to China only
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It's not because, as I said, you're arbitrarily suggesting that a character must blitz another character if they have the means. They don't have to do that. Show me anything that states otherwise because, at the very minimum, Character B would need to be comparable to not constantly get blitzed by Character A.
Such a CRT would be pointless to exist. Dante's styles are ways of letting the player use his large moveset. They're figurative.
The Japanese scan I posted earlier that DMUA also linked the translation to.
That would be the case if your analogy were directly comparable. The scan says its speed is a combination of physicals + DE. The logical conclusion that follows using Occam's Razor is that since Fury can spam this technique endlessly in a fight, it doesn't cost much energy. For reference, movement in any of the main cast minus V costs 0 energy, even if the move description says it uses demonic power (or any other lesser demon I can remember, to be honest.) In contrast, they have plenty of moves that take energy from their devil trigger (demonic energy) gauge.
You said Fury was using an infinite speed amp yet not getting blitzed (which I partially addressed in point 1.) The only distinct, concrete visual is that its eyes glow, with or without the blade arm option. It even precedes its afterimage/ghost/whatever ability if you want to mention that. Its eyes were still glowing when it dodged Dante's finger mid-air, meaning if that's what you want to attribute its speed to, it was still using it at that moment. The black mist is mostly a trailing indicator, as shown when Fury's trails rapidly approached Dante while it had not yet revealed itself.
The momentum doesn't end when the dash does. Run -> lunge -> momentum carried through. This also assumes that Fury was running around to build speed (which, again, isn't shown or stated) rather than trying to disorient his prey, which fits nicely with all the fakes it throws out. This time, I am assuming you mean Fury was winding up by running because his physical form wasn't shown once prior to jumping at Dante.
This further assumes that Dante wasn't playing possum the entire time and only identified Fury as a threat when it was 2 feet away, which wouldn't make sense if you're suggesting Dante couldn't track it while he was running around a giant arena, considering angular velocity is much lower at range than close up, and Fury was behind him.
Then, if you watch the video in slow motion, Dante objectively moves his arm faster than Fury's overall speed, and Fury doesn't even react until Dante's arm is fully outstretched.
It's an implicit feat. Every demon was getting one shot effortlessly. The only contention here is the belief that Fury would not get clapped just as easily as the horde before it or the other few demons attacking Vergil simultaneously.
I said, "The file states this is a generational evolution ability, which means this ability is their baseline." You said that's not what that means.
I essentially said neither translation suggests otherwise, which takes precedence over game mechanics. Fury's introduction scene showcased him being practically invisible and moving around the stage constantly until it went to attack Dante, which is 16 seconds of cinematic time. And it was not shown "winding up" beforehand. Granted, it appeared from off-screen, but its actions already clash with the game mechanics. Those 1-second pop-ups that it does in gameplay are nowhere near the cutscene actions.
See the above. Also, Fury left an afterimage before his eyes started glowing.
You said, "Even if the movement ability has drawbacks," so here, I assume you mean when it's standing still, preparing to attack. Even so, after doing its glowy eye wind-up thing once, Fury can spam successive dashes and even immediately recover from being knocked mid-air with its speed, which disagrees with needing to charge up to attack.
When Dante puts his finger in its face and Fury bounces back immediately.
But Fury can clearly maneuver during his movements, which are non-linear. It's how it knew when to materialize and attack Dante at the perfect moment.
Dante reacts to Fury without looking at it, which makes this topic (visual indicators) irrelevant.
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What I'm saying, this scan (And scaling steaming from it) still was wrong due to mistranslation
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Post in thread 'Devils Do Cry: Peak of Conspiracy'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/devils-do-cry-peak-of-conspiracy.160099/post-6130118
Here is the thread that goes over the scans related to POC and thus shouldn’t have any bearing in this thread when it was discussed last year for this.
Conclusion is the scans used from POC 1.0 was deemed fake.
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But what about MFTL+ feat?
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idk how the idea that an infinitely faster character should blitz the slower one in a fight is arbitrary. We don't have that written down since we don't detail every unique situation like that.
Sure, not much, but seemingly more than their passive existence.
I don't know how you can think that's the only distinct/concrete visual.
Plus I think attributing that to just the speed seems weird, considering how it happens in the cutscene when it pulls its blade arm out. I'd guess it's more of a general demonic energy use thing.
Its eyes are always glowing to some extent, but they didn't flare up in that moment.
I disagree, it looks to be moving slower than it was while charging.
No it doesn't? I have no clue what you're talking about.
No, I mean that Fury is swinging its arm. Winding up that attack.
I don't know what you're talking about. Dante turned and identified after the movement ability wasn't being used any more; being able to track Fury then and not earlier isn't a contradiction, since the movement ability presumably adds a lot more than the distance would.
After Fury was out of the movement ability, which would presumably make it slower.
Durability =/= speed.
- "They evolved this ability, so it's their baseline speed."
- "No, that's not what that means."
- "There's no mention of Fury needing to build up to their max speed."
- "Where did that come from?"
You can evolve an ability which grants you extra movement speed, without that movement speed being something you have without using that ability, and without you needing to run around for 5 minutes before you reach your maximum speed.
I don't know what you're talking about.
It seems pretty similar to me tbh. Dashing around in dark streaks, before appearing in a solid form to attack.
I don't see the importance of this.
How?
Being able to use a movement ability multiple times, and being able to use that ability after being hit, don't contradict the idea of them not being able to attack during that movement ability.
Moving in curves doesn't require you to react during the movement.
Materializing where a person who isn't moving is standing doesn't require you to react during the movement.
Your original point in this chain was "Dante beat Fury in a fight, so he scales", so it is kinda relevant.
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That came from the mainline game DMC 1 and should been fine
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Because Dante being more powerful means he can just as easily directly match Fury's speed or be slightly above it and achieve the same effect, which is what is observed.
Because that is the only common denominator when Fury is about to disappear and start its attack phase. The mist is secondary to that. Any sound effects are secondary to that. Its eyes also glow when it's not using his arm blades. The arm blades are also optional.
They were already flared up. You can see its eyes glowing during the whole cutscene attack moment, but then after it settles from jumping back, you can see its arm blades are gone, and its eyes have gone dim until it gets ready to start again.
You disagree with momentum? And it attacked Dante straight out of its run (I won't even call it a dash or a charge because that implies it can't be sustained for a long time, which it clearly can), so idk how it looks like it's slower beyond the fact that the scene is in slow-mo. Also, while it's in its red streak mode, Fury splashes a puddle right before it lunges at Dante, meaning it was already physically present, just not visible.
These are both replies to the same topic. But I see what you're saying. Fury's arm is attached to his body, which is the main driver of its speed, so if I'm correct in that your point is Fury's arm still had to deliver a horizontal slicing motion, it would still be no slower than its entire body is moving.
Assuming all Dante could see was the mist streaks (which you said is an indicator of where it's at), and he was standing still because he was incapable of intercepting Fury at any point prior to its attack, then that is absolutely a contradiction. Like I said, with angular velocity, things appear slower the further they are away from you. How does it make any sense that Dante couldn't track him from several feet away, yet he can completely intercept Fury at full speed without looking when he appears within striking range?
It's literally just running.
The point wasn't about AP or durability. It's that Fury is fodder just like everyone else. Unless you believe it has speed anywhere near two people who are far beyond the powers of the Qlipoth fruit. Before Dante went in a coma, he was dodging attacks from pre-fruit Urizen and was forced to use Devil Trigger. Fury got trolled by contrast.
I kinda don't get this. When I say Fury's ability, I'm not saying ability in the sense that Fury developed kaioken. I'm saying its biological speed with its inherent demonic power, much like every demon has, is its ability/skillset/etc.
This argument chain stems from you saying Fury has drawbacks, such as needing to wind up. You stated that it's not stated, but you inferred that much from gameplay. You've also now made it clear that when you say winding up, you mean the arm blade.
The arm blade has no bearing on its speed. The gameplay also shouldn't take precedence over the cutscenes and translations, where none of these flaws that you're pointing out are shown or stated to exist. You also said someone who can temporarily move at these speeds would not produce scaling opportunities. Which I also disagreed with, because Fury clearly spams this in combat.
Hopefully, I cleared this up.
Similar, but not the same. Fury's gameplay abilities are far different in duration and application than what it displayed in the cutscenes, which is what I'm saying.
An instance where it used powers outside of the indicators you noticed.
One of the things you said is that Fury needs to wind up before an attack. The video I linked is direct evidence of the opposite. This argument eventually boils down to two things. One is the fact that there's evidence of Fury leaving physical evidence that it's moving while not being visible. Two, knowing the former, Fury's visibility should have no impact on its speed.
If I put you in a car that only drives at the speed of light and tell you to drive, the next thing you see is eternal darkness.
No. You said that Dante couldn't scale to Fury, especially when its movement has drawbacks, such as mist that shows you where it is. I said Dante reacted to Fury while it was behind him, which makes the mist irrelevant.
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Strength =/= speed.
That's why I said the eye glow seems like a general demonic energy use thing. It occurs without the dashing.
The brightness seems pretty similar between these two moments, I think the connection you're drawing is spurious.
For a space-time warping technique which occasionally has them appearing in two places at once? Yeah, I think momentum's a weird thing to ascribe.
This isn't generally true; characters with movement-related techniques can't necessarily attack at the same speed as those techniques, that's gotta be established.
If Fury was moving at the same speed during that swing which was intercepted, I would agree. But I contest that, so I don't.
I posit that, despite being further away, Fury was harder to track due to using a movement-aiding ability.
If you're not saying that it's infinite because of quotes like that, and are instead saying that it's just running, where are you getting infinite speed from?
As I keep saying, it's a movement ability that isn't active all the time, and stronger characters can be slower than weaker ones.
Then you're making a stronger claim than the series itself is, I guess?
The same pattern of attacking after warping close is continued in the cutscene.
Spamming something in combat doesn't mean that a person who beats them scales. This sorta stuff is why we are extremely careful with scaling for off-screen feats; fights can play out in a variety of odd ways, and beating someone doesn't mean that you're superior to them in every category.
You really think so? I, personally, don't see a meaningful difference in either of those.
I find it weird for you to argue from the eyes glowing after they start disappearing, while also arguing (earlier in this post) that the eyes glowing is a great indicator of when it's being used.
I'll admit that the visual/audio things associated with the ability aren't consistent, they're a fair bit over the place, but they're generally present.
Your video isn't direct evidence of the opposite. After Fury re-appears it spends 8 frames making an attack, swinging from its side.
Funny for you to bring up this example given this section of our speed page.
Dante could scale to Fury, it's not impossible, he would just need a good feat. But simply defeating Fury in a fight isn't enough, because its movement has drawbacks.
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Eh, it could been just how they make the visuals when they transitioned from cutscenes to gameplay. Although if we speaking of only gameplay, visual consistency can been called in question especially when one can make a argument about some mistakes made when designing the gameplay.
Still doubtful on the animation mistake as that is merely speculation on my end
Marosuke
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I think few people know DMC on the wiki so let me explain.
From Demon Physiology (Devil May Cry)
DMC PoC says "cover distances instantly". In my opinion, it's more like pseudo-teleportation because of its speed. At least this should be infinite speed but im not sure about immeasurable speed.
From Demon Physiology (Devil May Cry)
And the demons can convert demonic power(UES) into momentum.
DMC PoC says "cover distances instantly". In my opinion, it's more like pseudo-teleportation because of its speed. At least this should be infinite speed but im not sure about immeasurable speed.
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Welp, that just solidified the FTL rating even more if anything as that is not even a infinite speed feat anyway.
Edit: Also because that is a finite speed feat
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the japanese there uses the same 瞬間移動 (teleportation) that was already discussed lol
but why is JP being used here if the game is originally chinese, wouldn't you want that for raws?
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Ignore him. He misunderstood the stuff.
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"Because Dante being more powerful means he can just as easily directly match Fury's speed or be slightly above it and achieve the same effect, which is what is observed."
This means that Dante can harm Fury regardless, so he can 1:1 match its speed or be any quantity above it and make its arsenal meaningless, which is simply being faster than its prey.
There are some moments in the game where Fury does not have glowy eyes before it goes zoom mode. In this case, there's no consistency for indicators to be a solid argument, which you say further down. I personally didn't think there were any indicators before this argument, and even if there were any, Dante didn't use them as combat aids.
This and this are clearly different. Glow versus no glow. However, if we're finding that indicators are inconsistent, then it doesn't matter.
Not really, considering it's initiated and completed with their muscles. To confirm, do you believe that Fury initiates movement, warps, then reappears, or just disappears, then reappears? Because I feel like you've described what it can do in 10 different ways.
I'm saying that if I'm running 70mph, my arms automatically move at the same speed. If I throw a punch while running, my arm temporarily exceeds my running speed.
It literally was running full speed and reappeared already in attack stance, but ok. We can agree to disagree. And I still don't understand how he was harder to track from far away yet could respond with no sense of urgency with Fury behind him. Dante has fought Vergil most of his life, who has both insane speed and teleportation, so I don't believe that at all.
"The speed, which is difficult (not impossible) to visually detect, seems to be the result of not only muscular strength but also magical spatial interference."
You make it seem it's opening up portals each time it runs. The fact that it says "difficult to visually detect" proves it maintains a physical presence. Also, the puddle splashing, as I've stated.
And as I keep saying, Fury attacked Dante directly out of the ability.
Also, Fury, if that cutscene was 5 seconds longer:
This is basically what the translation says. You said you can evolve an ability that gives you extra speed without affecting your regular movement. Still, the translation says, "...speed...seems to be the result of not only muscular strength..." which means its final speed is not independent of its regular movement. Both are required.
My response below covers the first line. As for the second part, the fact that Fury can attack out of these movements seems like its attack speed to me. The fact that it can do this repeatedly in close proximity strengthens my belief.
You don't see a difference between continuous movement in the cutscene showing no need to stop or wind up, as you say, versus the burst-like pattern in gameplay? Convince me you're not being intentionally dishonest.
Yes, in the one example of it phasing .01 seconds before it speeds away in the video you provided. It didn't run anywhere at that moment, though.
I don't know which part you watched. When Fury is across from Dante, it prepares to strike, then as soon as it resets itself, it strikes again with no need to prepare.
"The character either must have demonstrated the ability to react to sudden obstacles while traveling at this speed"
Like charging at Dante while going full speed, then immediately reversing its trajectory when it reacts to his hand. If you're going to claim that Fury was at a different speed when he became visible, even though he attacked out of said movement with no visible loss of speed, the burden of proof is on you.
Also, per the specific scenario I created, if you get in a light-speed car and touch the gas, you are dead instantly. You won't even perceive anything past touching the pedal.
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Bruh.
The translation says dash but shows a jump. The Japanese translation is correct; the title in Japanese is "Air Trick," which is also the English name for this move in any of the games, which is Vergil's move (that's him in the image), which is legitimately teleportation (for him.) There is no description of "dash" in any of the actual games nor in any language that describes it like this picture.
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Palito266
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(Also you know, DE stuff)
More Powerful = More DE = More Speed, Strength and Resistance
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He can just as easily be slower than Fury's fastest movement ability, if there's ways to act around it.
What says it's initiated and completed with their muscles? The description says it uses demonic power for those space-time jumps.
It'd have to initiate movement, I'd think. It doesn't warp randomly or mindlessly, so it'd need a thought from its end.
Sure, unless you're using a movement ability that wears off.
Does the trolling idea no longer apply?
Because there are also statements and visuals to that effect; the space-time warps, the manifestations out of nothing, and the appearing in multiple places at once. I honestly can't think of a great solution to combine these; maybe space-time is warped to shorten the distance without reducing it to nothing, or it's partially inside reality and partially outside of it?
Also, you didn't explain why you think it's infinite speed.
Which means that the innate muscular strength alone is lower, and so their baseline speed is not the same. I'm not saying they move at normal human speeds outside of the warps, they're probably pretty ******* fast, just not the same speed as their ability allows.
We don't get much of a chance to see it since Fury runs completely off-screen. For all we know, it ran out of sight, its ability deactivated, then it ran back in to attack Dante, which is pretty dang similar to the gameplay stuff. It didn't use the burst of feints it sometimes uses in gameplay, but as I say, that only happens sometimes.
I don't understand the point being made here.
Ah, I was looking at the first attack there, not the second one.
But yeah, that one also needs preparation. It waits around, flashes out, reappears, and then has to swing its blade down after warping back in; taking about 12 frames (some of these frames seem repeated; might be lag or the recording having a higher framerate than the game, but still).
That's not a sudden obstacle, Dante remained still. And yeah, Fury was clearly outside of its ability when it changed trajectory. I've already explained why I don't think momentum's a great thing to apply there.
Yeah do you just mean from the KE? Since, if so, that's a very uninteresting point.
In general, perhaps. But this is an ability Fury got from refinement over multiple generations. There are presumably characters with more DE which we don't assume have the same ability.
Palito266
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Yet we see Dante and Vergil do the same with Air Trick in all of their games, even as far back as DMC 3... And a thing to mention is that in some games like DMC 4 for Vergil and Dante (in lots of guides) it's defined as a quick movement (yes it's the DMC Wiki but it gives us the description and I don't have DMC 4 on-hand so my bad there), but in other descriptions, it's defined as teleportation so take that as you will.
So yes, Dante and Vergil can still replicate the same ability Fury does via their DE (since they use DE for legitimately everything), so logically they should scale off of Fury since they're seen every game doing the same thing and stated to replicate teleportation via quick movements.
Palito266
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There seems to be two descriptions, one where it's named as teleportation and another one where it's named as movement, but yeah Trickster being a style that allows you to physically move easier says a lot about what they truly mean. Again, I give the scans and my judgement, and people decide what to do from there.
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