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D&D AP CRT and other fun acronyms.

1. So this point hinges entirely on All Creation, which is literally just as likely to be poetic speech. Good.

2. Not from me, dear friend. It'd be on you to prove that it does in fact affect every Multiverse as that goes against the Status Quo. From what I can tell, the only mention of in-lore statements of leading to other multiverses is the proof Qawsed listed above, which doesn't really mean much here.

6. Noted. Yeah still believing all of your points hinge purely on poetic speech and. This wouldn't matter even if All Creation meant literally every single D&D setting (including Mystara, which again, the Lady of Pain is not a part of, nor are any of the gods she's dealing with). This is taking a feat from a completely different reality and applying it to achieve a higher rating.
 
1. No, not at all, in fact, I don't think it's poetic language, and I think they compliment each other well, the reason I don't think it's poetic language because of the reference of All Creation, and then, if you say "All Creation" part is true, then you should take the entire statement as true, if you look, contains the "Realms near and far"

2. Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Planescape and the Main D&D settings are all apart of the same Multiverse ("Die, Vecna, Die!" comfirmed this.) Mystara was added into this as shown by Azzy.

6. Tenebrous' Law Word was given to the Lady based on Poetic Language. Poetic language which is much more obvious then mine, and from what I remember, that was added by Azzy as well.

Also, what's to say it was a different reality? As said before, Mystara was apart of the Main Setting, so it very well may not be disconnected.
 
> But I'm not because that is obviously poetic language for "She very strong"

The narration is also using a in-universe perspective or at least the language of one. It even knowing about the Old Ones would be impossible the prove.

Also despite being flowery, her being above Tenebrous was the point of the passage. That even with all of his power/The Last Word he couldn't defeat her.
 
Poetic language in the case of Tenebrous flat out stated that she was unaffected by Last Word. That's different from you saying that all D&D settings were affected, which is extrapolating information based solely on poetic language. There's a marked difference.

"I don't think it's poetic language" does not negate the fact that both of your supporting statements are pretty commonly used instances of poetic language.

Mystara was discontinued as the main setting by AD&D. By 3e it was out of the picture, and had in fact stopped getting any official work several years before 3e came out. So, if you don't mind, show me Azzy's proof of all this. Because Mystara literally hadn't been worked on for years by the time this feat came to fruition.
 
"

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

Some other random stuff I figured it may be important to mention in a thread like this that I had initially missed in 5e's DMG.

  • Mystara is confirmed to still exist in the current version of D&D. Nice to know it's not just pushed back into a closet and is acknowledged to exist.
"This book, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual present the default assumptions for how the worlds of D&D work. Among the established settings of D&D, the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Mystara don't stray very far from those assumptions." - Dungeon Master's Guide (5e), pg 9"


And my "I don't think it's poetic language" comes from your assertion to the opposite, that you do believe it's Poetic Language, yet you don't explain why yourself.


Also, no, I asked about the Tenebrous Last Word statement. It was the Brawl statement.
 
That statement says that the rules would probably fit for Mystara. Not that it is even still in canon, just that they can be applied to base D&D content. So I'm against that.

it is poetic language because literally both of your statements have been commonly used poetic statements. I've already said that. "near and far"? Really? That's your justification? It isn't even capitalized. C'mon. And "all of creation" fits in this category too, just... near and far is a sad attempt.
 
So your problem is capitalization? That's not justification, at all. Also, we've used "All of Creation" texts on the Wiki before, as well, so it's nothing out of the ordinary.

The assertion that it's poetic text makes aboslutely no sense either, as this is a DM guide, where besides where it says: "In legend" or depictions, are fact and what has happened the assertion it's poetic language is like saying a Manuel is using poetic langauge when it says "Add the screw here or the thing may fall apart."


It's a redicuous assertion, most of all because this is listed in a GM guide book.
 
My problem is that literally none of your evidence supports your claims. And yes, we have used all of creation texts, simply not in such an outlandish context as "including entirely other realities in that creation".

Yes, it does. DM guides have that. Like often. Especially in lore descriptions. Have you read a DM guide lol? If it isn't base rules, then a lot of it is lore information for the DM.
 
Lore information, did you just debunk yourself? You made my case for me, thank you. And yes, I have, naturally, I've had to read through many to find specific details on the Lady.

None of it supports?

So, Interacting with all of Creation, which has been stated in Mystara as possibly Infinite Dimensional with a minimum of 7 Dimensions. If you didn't know, all those dimensions would be apart of Creation which, as stated before, is apart of the Same Multiverse, just like Planescape, Ravenloft, Greyhawk and the Main D&D setting. Mystara isn't any different and is stated to be in the same Multiverse.

Interacting with the Far Realm would follow this as well.
 
> So your problem is capitalization? That's not justification, at all

There's a pretty notable difference between a "far realm" and the "Far Realm". Plus as the passage states it's just revealing previously unknown stuff, not much of a feat.

The affecting all of creation would be something if the Far Realm wasn't outside of reality and it not being extremely contradictory with Mystara. Imo, if you want a tier 1 rating you can't use Mystara. Just use Superspace as the justication for High 2A to High 1C. Since from almost everything I read from DnD supports the main multiverse being 2A or High 2A at best.
 
See above. Doesn't interact with Far Realm, doesn't include Mystara. Moving on.
 
Coincidentally, Superspace means dimensional space higher than 4. So baseline would be 5. As in High 2-A.

Funny how that works out. You could tack "possibly higher" on that, but we low ball round these parts. And we also tend to stray from wanking stats because we want a character in a higher tier.
 
Includes Mystara, can infact interact with the Far realm, no counter arguments given besides: "I don't want this because I think it's poetic language."

Moving on.
 
Prove it includes Mystara other than a brief note saying that rules can work for a Mystaran setting. And that All Creation includes All Creations plural lol. Because I've given counter arguments and at this point you're just saying "no u".
 
I mean, you haven't shown that it interacts with the Far Realm. The most you have presented is a quote that's just talking about new things being discovered.
 
Okay, so, in order to reveal you must interact with said thing, If I wanted to reveal you, I would need to interact with you in some way.

If you wont accept something that obviously says it's apart of the main Settings, as well as the examples set by other settings such as Ravenloft, Planescape, Greyhawk and the main setting, then you just wont accept it.

No, it doesn't contain "All CreationS", it just says "Sum of All Creation" no plural, not sure what you're on about there.

Red Herring, also, your only argument is "Poetic Language" and that's all, which I have said that the more poetic langauge of the Lady not being able to be beaten by Last Word Orcus was accepted.

Possibly interacted with the Far Realm.

Affected all Creation, which would include the Infinite Dimensions of Mystara.

Superspace involes Vector Space, it ranges from the 4-11 D range all the way up to Infinite D.
 
Superspace is also commonly used as a synonym for the super vector space. This is taken to be an ordinary vector space, together with additional coordinates taken from the Grassmann algebra, i.e. coordinate directions that are Grassmann numbers. There are several conventions for constructing a super vector space in use; two of these are described by Rogers[2] and DeWitt.[3]

Vector spaces are the subject of linear algebra and are well characterized by their dimension, which, roughly speaking, specifies the number of independent directions in the space. Infinite-dimensional vector spaces arise naturally in mathematical analysis, as function spaces, whose vectors are functions. These vector spaces are generally endowed with additional structure, which may be a topology, allowing the consideration of issues of proximity and continuity. Among these topologies, those that are defined by a norm or inner product are more commonly used, as having a notion of distance between two vectors. This is particularly the case of Banach spaces and Hilbert spaces, which are fundamental in mathematical analysis.

An important development of vector spaces is due to the construction of function spaces by Lebesgue. This was later formalized by Banach and Hilbert, around 1920.[11] At that time, algebra and the new field of functional analysis began to interact, notably with key concepts such as spaces of p-integrable functions and Hilbert spaces.[12] Vector spaces, including infinite-dimensional ones, then became a firmly established notion, and many mathematical branches started making use of this concept.
 
To the superspace argument: The most common usage is referring to anything larger than 4th dimensional space. We lowball on this wiki in the name of avoiding inflated and wanked stats.

To the rest of this: See above, literally all of this has no meaning because Superspace only implies High 2-A, which she already has. Also, at least try to state it yourself instead of flat out copy pasting from Wikipedia.
 
"literally all of this has no meaning because Superspace only implies High 2-A,"

Did you even bother to read the fact it says "Superspace" is a synonym for "Super Vector Space" which I then further expanded on by showing how and I quote: " Infinite-dimensional vector spaces arise naturally in mathematical analysis, as function spaces, whose vectors are functions. These vector spaces are generally endowed with additional structure, which may be a topology, allowing the consideration of issues of proximity and continuity. Among these topologies, those that are defined by a norm or inner product are more commonly used, as having a notion of distance between two vectors."


This naturally occurs, meaning that we don't have to high or low ball it, it is natural for the Infinite Dimensions to exist, if they naturally exist then they are apart of All Creation to which she affected, so on and so forth.

Also, I'd rather directly quote it as I could miss out very important details, which very well could affect the quality of the statements I use. A direct quote is not filtered and therefore, not bias towards either goal.

Also, again a Red herring, attacking the source and not the information itself.
 
That's not the only meaning for super vector space lol. Do you bother to read your own sources? At all?

"If is finite-dimensional and the dimensions of and are and respectively, then is said to have dimension . The standard super coordinate space, denoted , is the ordinary coordinate space {\displaystyle \mathbb where the even subspace is spanned by the first coordinate basis vectors and the odd space is spanned by the last ."

Your source literally denotes finite dimensionality. So no. This does not help your case at all.
 
Oh? Bases allow one to represent vectors by a sequence of scalars called coordinates or components. A basis is a (finite or infinite) set B = {bi}i Ôêê I of vectors bi, for convenience often indexed by some index set I, that spans the whole space and is linearly independent. "Spanning the whole space" means that any vector v can be expressed as a finite sum (called a linear combinatio) of the basis elements: Really?

The dimension of the coordinate space F is , by the basis exhibited above. The dimension of the polynomial ring F[x] introduced above is countably infinite, a basis is given by 1, x, x2, ... A fortiori, the dimension of more general function spaces, such as the space of functions on some (bounded or unbounded) interval, is infinite.[nb 4]

Is

with rational coefficients q, ..., q0 (in other words, if ╬▒ is algebraic), the dimension is finite. More precisely, it equals the degree of the minimal polynomial having ╬▒ as a root.[23] For example, the complex numbers C are a two-dimensional real vector space, generated by 1 and the imaginary unit i. The latter satisfies i2 + 1 = 0, an equation of degree two. Thus, C is a two-dimensional R-vector space (and, as any field, one-dimensional as a vector space over itself, C). If ╬▒ is not algebraic, the dimension of Q(╬▒) over Q is infinite.

It

In particular, any -dimensional F-vector space V is isomorphic to F. There is, however, no "canonical" or preferred isomorphism; actually an isomorphism ¤å : F ÔåÆ V is equivalent to the choice of a basis of V, by mapping the standard basis of F to V, via ¤å. The freedom of choosing a convenient basis is particularly useful in the infinite-dimensional context

Now?

The set of all eigenvectors corresponding to a particular eigenvalue of f forms a vector space known as the eigenspace corresponding to the eigenvalue (and f) in question. To achieve the spectral theorem, the corresponding statement in the infinite-dimensional case, the machinery of functional analysis is needed
 
Yes. Because again, it is not assuredly infinite dimensional. So let's review.

You have, right now, abandoned the other arguments, rightfully so, because no more arguments were to be had. Now, in an attempt to get your avatar to High 1-B, you are attempting to use a variant definition of Superspace (not our policy to do so) that can be used favorably if taken to the utmost extreme, which you are also doing.

Superspace can refer to and generally does refer to anything larger than 5 spatial dimensions. Even with your random pickings of articles from the internet, you don't conclusively prove anything other than your CTrl+C and Ctrl+V skills are not in need of repair because your articles only say it can be infinite dimensional. We have no reason in any way to believe that it is.
 
So, what is that special phrase that we always use when it could be but isn't comfirmed?

Oh yeah it's the "possibly" phrase.

And for Superspace, it still uses Vector Space in everything it does as it uses The vector space R0|n

Which is a value used in Vector Space, even if we say the definition for Superspace in D&D isn't a Synonym for Vector Space, it still uses it's values.
 
Back to Pokemon. They could possibly all be hyperdimensional little monsters and yet we have no confirmation of it. So tacking them with possibly is erroneous. Here all we know is that they are at least of 5 spatial dimensions. That's it. You extrapolating infinity from that because it could possibly happen (and I reiterate, with no confirmation whatsoever) is the exact same thing.

And yes. But again. That still only denotes spaces of 5-D or higher.

I am okay with At least High 2-A, possibly higher.

But randomly saying "possibly infinite" is choosing favorites on which tier that should be "possibly", which shouldn't be the case. It is massively, unfathomably more likely that it is within finite numbers. So just saying "well it shud be high 1-b lul possibly possibly haha" is wrong. Still.
 
Here's the full [quote]. The important parta are these:

  • Vecna is the one who caused the multiverse to change, not the LOP. Who just repaired the damage he wrought
  • It seems like she needed to be in the Sigil to actually do her feat, considering how the text notes her postion in regards to the multiverse
Vecna damaging the 2e multiverse and her healing it is a High 2A or just 2A thing
 
So, TL;DR of this whole derailed tangent our dear LoP fan has brought on us.

High 2-A, possibly higher. Because that's literally all we have proof for.
 
I've also misremembered the quote and gave some poor arguments. Plus it's not like I can't see his reasonings. Even if I disagree with them.

However if you feel like it @Udlmaster just make a CRT. Plus we've sorta derailed this entire thread which was about some lower tier speed and AP upgrades.
 
I see his reasonings, but they are false. Inflated, so to speak.

And yes, Udl, please, make a new thread if you really want this to be continued. This was a Low 7-B AP thread for low-tiers, not a High 1-B thread for LOP.

and also the beginning of the almighty Composite Adventurer
 
We still need someone to unlock the God profiles for the speed increase and nerfing some precog.
 
Yes, I agree to High-Godly for LOP and pretty much anyone that scales (Ao, Serpent, and full-power Vecna). Lumi may as well get it too.
 
By Full Power Vecna do you mean him as a Greater God or as an Overgod
 
Overgod, and noted Udl.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Vecna tried becoming an overgod but failed IIRC
Click to expand...
Yes, the book mentions that one of the main possibile results of his plan succeeding is him remaining confined in the normal order of gods in the new multiverse, because he didn't actually have any control over what happened when everything went up in smoke. It's up to the DM to actually decide what happens if everything fails against him.

This is a different case than in something like Dead Gods, where you're given a pretty exact "this is how things will play out if Orcus wins".
 
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