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Cultivator Demon vs Hadou God
- Thread starter Zaratthustra
- Start date
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There could possibly be, given that there are infinite realms within the unknown realms. What we need to know is how much "superior" the higher one is to the lower one.
But currently, there's nothing suggesting that there's a dimension-like difference between the Unknown Realms.
And I'd even argue that Reinhard is not just 90 levels of transcendence above baseline, but let's save my headcanon for the next time.
But currently, there's nothing suggesting that there's a dimension-like difference between the Unknown Realms.
And I'd even argue that Reinhard is not just 90 levels of transcendence above baseline, but let's save my headcanon for the next time.
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Transcendence(Step 4) or Daosource in ISSTH is like the earlier Realms at its own in subcategories:
Early Daosource, Mid Daosource, Late Daosource, Great Circle (Peak) Daosource and Half-Ancestor then Early Ancestor, Mid Ancestor, Late Ancestor, Great Circle (Peak) Ancestor and then Step 5 which is at least Unknown Realms.
Early Daosource, Mid Daosource, Late Daosource, Great Circle (Peak) Daosource and Half-Ancestor then Early Ancestor, Mid Ancestor, Late Ancestor, Great Circle (Peak) Ancestor and then Step 5 which is at least Unknown Realms.
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What we need to know is the qualitative difference between each realm, not how to subset them.
How vast is the difference between each realm/step?
We need to know if they're completely transcendental to the lower one/s or not.
EG. 61 Taikyoku treats 60 like an irrelevant existence and no matter what the latter does the former will not be affected.
From the information you provided, Meng Hao seems to be about a handful levels of transcendence above baseline but not as much as Reinhard.
I'd also appreciate if you can point out the difference between each of the sub-realm/category
EDIT: why does it seem like I'm the only one eager to debate this? C'mon people don't let it die.
How vast is the difference between each realm/step?
We need to know if they're completely transcendental to the lower one/s or not.
EG. 61 Taikyoku treats 60 like an irrelevant existence and no matter what the latter does the former will not be affected.
From the information you provided, Meng Hao seems to be about a handful levels of transcendence above baseline but not as much as Reinhard.
I'd also appreciate if you can point out the difference between each of the sub-realm/category
EDIT: why does it seem like I'm the only one eager to debate this? C'mon people don't let it die.
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I know how Masadaverse works, I'm also a fan.
There was never detailed each subcategory, only said. It's works like in earlier Realms. Each subcategory advance is qualitative change and each Step difference is something that can't be measured. The only time it was shown a clear difference between a lower and upper grade of Transcendence was when Jin Yunshan transcended and Meng Hao stopped him from destroying the Ninth Mountain and Sea.
It really hard to place how far in 1-A he is because he doesn't have a Power Level like in Masada with a clear 1 Taikyoku is insignificant compared to someone with 2 Taikyoku. In ISSTH the realm and its cultivation is the mark.
If we try to use that logic on ISSTH, the Transcendence it would be Daosource x5 + Ancestor x4 + the superior qualitative change of stepping in Step 5. This is unreliable as Meng Hao was always stronger than the Realm and its subcategory he was in (He once was 256-time x that peak of Realm). How big the difference between Step 4 and Step 5 can't be 100% know without a statement that focuses on them. The closest we can go is by comparing the others Steps.
Step 1 is the Spirit Realm which has 6 sub-realms which each having at its own subcategories.
Step 2 is the Immortal Realm and Ancient Realm.
Step 3 is the Dao Realm.
Step 4 is Transcendence Realm which has Daosource and Ancestor sub-realm each with 4-5 subcategories.
Step 5 is the Unknown Realm at least.
Like I said I truly don't know how far he is in 1-A, that's why I want help from others to place a position for him.
There was never detailed each subcategory, only said. It's works like in earlier Realms. Each subcategory advance is qualitative change and each Step difference is something that can't be measured. The only time it was shown a clear difference between a lower and upper grade of Transcendence was when Jin Yunshan transcended and Meng Hao stopped him from destroying the Ninth Mountain and Sea.
It really hard to place how far in 1-A he is because he doesn't have a Power Level like in Masada with a clear 1 Taikyoku is insignificant compared to someone with 2 Taikyoku. In ISSTH the realm and its cultivation is the mark.
If we try to use that logic on ISSTH, the Transcendence it would be Daosource x5 + Ancestor x4 + the superior qualitative change of stepping in Step 5. This is unreliable as Meng Hao was always stronger than the Realm and its subcategory he was in (He once was 256-time x that peak of Realm). How big the difference between Step 4 and Step 5 can't be 100% know without a statement that focuses on them. The closest we can go is by comparing the others Steps.
Step 1 is the Spirit Realm which has 6 sub-realms which each having at its own subcategories.
Step 2 is the Immortal Realm and Ancient Realm.
Step 3 is the Dao Realm.
Step 4 is Transcendence Realm which has Daosource and Ancestor sub-realm each with 4-5 subcategories.
Step 5 is the Unknown Realm at least.
Like I said I truly don't know how far he is in 1-A, that's why I want help from others to place a position for him.
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Precisely,
What I am looking for is a proof that each realm are transcendental than the last or at least have a dimension-like hierarchy.
If I were to say it, the difference between 1 Taikyoku is completely and utterly immeasurable, people however still treat it as a "level of transcendence" since it's atleast greater than countable infinite.
That is what people do here in 1-A matches.
I can help you analyze the ISSTH hierarchy and pinpoint MH's exact standing. But firstly we need to know how superior each subrealms are compared to the last, especially if it's a transcendence, which still remains unproven.
How superior are the sub realms exactly? Are they completely transcendental to the lower one? The answer to the question seems to be unknown.
From what I can see, the first subrealm within Daosource is definitely above baseline 1-A and we can probably scale from there.
Lowball interpretation:
Let's say that each step represents a transcendence, you would get 2 transcendences above baseline.
Highball interpretation: ( Despite saying highball, I think it's a "more likely" case. )
Now let's say that each of the sub-realm represents a complete transcendence to the lower ones, you would atleast get 9 degrees of transcendence combined with the unknown realms.
Unsupported wank-ish interpretation:
If each realm within the unknown realm represents complete transcendences. You would get countless levels of transcendences above baseline.
As a side note, being 256 times more powerful than the peak of the realm doesn't really matter since it's merely a quantitative difference.
From what I can see, Reinhard definitely takes this match unless it's the wankish interpretation which is still arguable.
Despite all my rambling, I do agree that it's currently unquantifiable.
What I am looking for is a proof that each realm are transcendental than the last or at least have a dimension-like hierarchy.
If I were to say it, the difference between 1 Taikyoku is completely and utterly immeasurable, people however still treat it as a "level of transcendence" since it's atleast greater than countable infinite.
That is what people do here in 1-A matches.
I can help you analyze the ISSTH hierarchy and pinpoint MH's exact standing. But firstly we need to know how superior each subrealms are compared to the last, especially if it's a transcendence, which still remains unproven.
How superior are the sub realms exactly? Are they completely transcendental to the lower one? The answer to the question seems to be unknown.
From what I can see, the first subrealm within Daosource is definitely above baseline 1-A and we can probably scale from there.
Lowball interpretation:
Let's say that each step represents a transcendence, you would get 2 transcendences above baseline.
Highball interpretation: ( Despite saying highball, I think it's a "more likely" case. )
Now let's say that each of the sub-realm represents a complete transcendence to the lower ones, you would atleast get 9 degrees of transcendence combined with the unknown realms.
Unsupported wank-ish interpretation:
If each realm within the unknown realm represents complete transcendences. You would get countless levels of transcendences above baseline.
As a side note, being 256 times more powerful than the peak of the realm doesn't really matter since it's merely a quantitative difference.
From what I can see, Reinhard definitely takes this match unless it's the wankish interpretation which is still arguable.
Despite all my rambling, I do agree that it's currently unquantifiable.
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@Ravenous
Patrick Star - I Don't Get It
Patrick Star - I Don't Get It
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>1-A matches be like
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1-A are, by definition, completely immeasurable since they are beyond dimensional. We can't put them under sub-tier.
However, since some people are so eager to debate such things, the idea of "degrees of infinities/transcendence" eventually became a thing.
That's what I'm currently following.
Regardless, 1-A matches are pointless for most people.
However, since some people are so eager to debate such things, the idea of "degrees of infinities/transcendence" eventually became a thing.
That's what I'm currently following.
Regardless, 1-A matches are pointless for most people.
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So what we should be focusing on in the match is their abilities?
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No.
The abilties of a 1-A don't matter since whoever is a higher 1-A shrugs it off
The abilties of a 1-A don't matter since whoever is a higher 1-A shrugs it off
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Not sure since this won't be added anyway due to 1A being quite complicated.
"Please note that although matches between 1-A characters are technically not forbidden, results from such matchups will not be added to the character profiles. Due to the unfathomably high gaps of power between characters within this category, and how hard it is to accurately compare levels of complexity between the cosmologies of different fictional works, these threads should not be discussed for anything beyond casual entertainment." From Versus Thread Rules
"Please note that although matches between 1-A characters are technically not forbidden, results from such matchups will not be added to the character profiles. Due to the unfathomably high gaps of power between characters within this category, and how hard it is to accurately compare levels of complexity between the cosmologies of different fictional works, these threads should not be discussed for anything beyond casual entertainment." From Versus Thread Rules
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Hax, Metahax, Omegahax, or whatever you call them are never taken into account in 1-A fights since their difference in power is so vast. AP is all that matters.
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Then what's the AP difference?
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That's the problem
We dont know since we have no clue how high Meng Hao is
We dont know since we have no clue how high Meng Hao is
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Not sure as we assume that a higher 1A can beat a lower 1A even though it could be the opposite of that as well.CrackerVolley said:
Anyway AP is also kinda irrelevant given how complicated it is.
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It's all speculation. We try to put 1-As on a certain "x degree of transcendence" based on their standings within their own verses so that we might find a winner.
Meng Hao level of transcendence can vary from 2 to countless depending on how you treat the subrealms. The countless transcendence interpretation however is unsupported by what has been shown.
Meng Hao level of transcendence can vary from 2 to countless depending on how you treat the subrealms. The countless transcendence interpretation however is unsupported by what has been shown.
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Well then screw this... I'm outta here.
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How 1-A battle works?
It doesn't work.
For most cases.
It doesn't work.
For most cases.
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One problem I see in 1-A battles is that we try to measure the AP by the amount of things they can destroy. Let's say: 1 Taikyoku is a 1-A who can erase the Throne, that resides outside of all creation. Then another character, who is also 1-A, tries to fight said character with 1 Taikyoku. The problem here is that we try to measure the not-shinza-one by Taikyoku and since it doesn't has any Taikyoku we think that they are above other 1-A's. I'm not saying that Shinza Bansho is a bad fiction, nor that they powerlevel is senseless, but our mistake is that we try to measure infinity. Literally.Ravenous4th said:
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Because power is everything.
Intelligence? Hax? Nah. Try arguing their abilities and you'll learn it the hard way.
Intelligence? Hax? Nah. Try arguing their abilities and you'll learn it the hard way.
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AP would be EVERYTHING if the fight would be in a lower tier. I may don't think that way even, but if that's the case, then why Hajun can't defeat Shub-Niggurath? Or Anu? Both are 1-A (Anu could reach 0 and the other 1-A key is pretty much undefeatable) and Hajun has an immeasurable Taikyoku, yet he can't defeat none of the characters said. The joke here is that we think the fights happen in a visual-novel-style or Marvel way, and for a plot that would ok since we're talking about things that exist beyond dimentions. But this is not a SpaceBattle Forum (nope, I'm not not trying to offend those who belive in them) and what matters here is what we don't a lot of times: debate. If being "right" is what sustains the powerlevel of a character, then why do we even debate? We don't like to be wrong (who likes that?) and we can say that we don't discuss why "X" defeats "Y" because our logic is """undeniable""". Let's debate, that's more funny than write a "FRA" or posting an image with a meme saying "is a stomp". Let's enjoy debates
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Y dale con lo mismo.
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Chill, mate
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M├ís vale. Debatir no es tener razón todo el tiempo.Tony di bugalu said:
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Cuando te equivocas con la primera oración de tu post es cuando todo mundo se dio cuenta que no tienes razón.
Mi amigo, literalmente todas las peleas 1-A se definen por AP, AP es todo aquí, no inteligencia, no la cantidad de habilidades rotas que tengan, nada, solo la fuerza pura y dura y a menos que te saques un magnífico post or CRT que cambie eso la wiki lo va a seguir tomando de esa forma.
Mi amigo, literalmente todas las peleas 1-A se definen por AP, AP es todo aquí, no inteligencia, no la cantidad de habilidades rotas que tengan, nada, solo la fuerza pura y dura y a menos que te saques un magnífico post or CRT que cambie eso la wiki lo va a seguir tomando de esa forma.
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what? Use letters I can find on my keyboard xD
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He's telling him that only ap matters in 1-A fights
Also every letter he used can be typed with your keyboard
Also every letter he used can be typed with your keyboard
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I don't wanna >:vRatherClueless said:
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Also, Hajun stomps Anu in whatever 1-A key he has :v
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Paul, Paul, Paul, ┬┐no me digas que entiendes/hablas espa├▒ol?
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I cant do the " ó " or the the " ├¡ ". Also, thx for the translatePaul Frank said:
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To quote Aza:
"I didn't say they were above tiering or description (I think I said the opposite), but the argument about "power" is a more philosophical one so it's probably not of great importance that we discuss it, here.
There are definitely characters with more expansive hierarchies than ones who are currently considered High 1-A, but part of the solution comes from the fact that High 1-A is not exclusively about hierarchies. It is more about ideas and philosophy. I could try using a CM example, if that helps people understand better.
Though, like I said, there are also cases where characters are sometimes just High 1-A when they shouldn't be."
"It's not really specific powers and abilities, per se. As Matt says, it's a state of being, and even in our current system, High 1-A and 0 have never been specifically about power.
"As such, characters with serious weaknesses cannot be High 1-A."
"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
As it is a state of being, there are of course going to be other things that come with it other than "being a really strong guy", because as expressed before, it is otherwise just 1-A but better, which was never the idea."
"I didn't say they were above tiering or description (I think I said the opposite), but the argument about "power" is a more philosophical one so it's probably not of great importance that we discuss it, here.
There are definitely characters with more expansive hierarchies than ones who are currently considered High 1-A, but part of the solution comes from the fact that High 1-A is not exclusively about hierarchies. It is more about ideas and philosophy. I could try using a CM example, if that helps people understand better.
Though, like I said, there are also cases where characters are sometimes just High 1-A when they shouldn't be."
"It's not really specific powers and abilities, per se. As Matt says, it's a state of being, and even in our current system, High 1-A and 0 have never been specifically about power.
"As such, characters with serious weaknesses cannot be High 1-A."
"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
As it is a state of being, there are of course going to be other things that come with it other than "being a really strong guy", because as expressed before, it is otherwise just 1-A but better, which was never the idea."
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Sorry for the Spanish mate, it's jut more easy for me to type faster in Spanish rather than English and I'm kinda busy atm soo...
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@Peach
No offense, but I couldn't really grasp what you were trying to say, so it took me quite a bit to decipher the post.
AP would be EVERYTHING if the fight would be in a lower tier.
Except it wouldn't. In the lower tiers HAX, INTELLIGENCE, RANGE are still the deciding factors together with AP.
Unlike 1-A, in tier 1-A the difference between each individual character is akin to dimensional difference. You wouldn't assume that a 3-D hax would work against an infinite dimensional being, would you? That's the point. The only arguments you will see are those of "why X is on a higher plane of existence than Y" and vice versa.
If being "right" is what sustains the powerlevel of a character, then why do we even debate? We don't like to be wrong (who likes that?) and we can say that we don't discuss why "X" defeats "Y" because our logic is """undeniable""". Let's debate
The system that this place is based on works like that, at this point you aren't debating the characters present in the thread, you are arguing against the whole system or atleast the people who tend to use it.
Now tossing "muh system" aside, I don't see a way to actually conclude a fight at this level even with the current method.
The joke here is that we think the fights happen in a visual-novel-style or Marvel way
Excuse me? Come again? There is no visual-novel-style or Marvel way sort of fights. All fights follow the very same principle, you pit two characters against each other, you compare their feats and standings within their own verse to conclude the winnner. Simple as that.
But this is not a SpaceBattle Forum (nope, I'm not not trying to offend those who belive in them)
Spacebattl- what? why would you even bring that up? SB is my main forum and I can assure you that the only difference between VSBW and SB is that one uses Dimensional/Outerversal Tiering while the other does otherwise.
then why Hajun can't defeat Shub-Niggurath? Or Anu? Both are 1-A (Anu could reach 0 and the other 1-A key is pretty much undefeatable) and Hajun has an immeasurable Taikyoku
Because Shub-Niggurath's scaling chain in Cthulhu Mythos is longer than Shinza Bansho? Or that no one bothers arguing for Hajun? Or that no one knowledgeable was present when the debate took place? 1-A fights never get added, and sometimes you could even see characters that are supposedly higher than the vast majority of the site losing against "fodder" 1-As.
Oh and by the way, Anu never fought Hajun in other keys besides Anui-El.
Truth be told, there is no real winner in 1-A fights, as I have mentioned earlier, while they aren't entirely beyond math, they are still way beyond our dimensioned logic, we can't measure them let alone putting them under a sub-tier, we're just slapping an incredible amount of speculation onto them to deduce who would win. It's always stomp or inconclusive. That's why it never gets added.
Your whole problem with the things going on right now seems to be "Why aren't people debating anything other than level of transcendence?"
Because that's all 1-A fights are, let's say that you made a thread with "degrees of transcendence" equalized so that you could argue about other factors, what would happen?
The answer is that people will have no clue which one of the participant's abilities are superior since the only reason why their ***** work is because of their standings within their respective verses.
And that's not any better than what we're discussing.
The only reason why we're arguing "degrees" is because they are utterly immeasurable as they transcend all sort of dimensional structures, the only way to try and conclude the fight is to compare their position in their own verses' beyond dimensional metaphysical hierarchy.
Also what's with the high 1-A arguments? You aren't High 1-A/0 because you are infinitely above others, it's that you have few or no limitations with the minimum requirement being complete transcendence over other 1-As in your verse. ( atleast transcend 1-A as much as they transcend a regular man. )
No offense, but I couldn't really grasp what you were trying to say, so it took me quite a bit to decipher the post.
AP would be EVERYTHING if the fight would be in a lower tier.
Except it wouldn't. In the lower tiers HAX, INTELLIGENCE, RANGE are still the deciding factors together with AP.
Unlike 1-A, in tier 1-A the difference between each individual character is akin to dimensional difference. You wouldn't assume that a 3-D hax would work against an infinite dimensional being, would you? That's the point. The only arguments you will see are those of "why X is on a higher plane of existence than Y" and vice versa.
If being "right" is what sustains the powerlevel of a character, then why do we even debate? We don't like to be wrong (who likes that?) and we can say that we don't discuss why "X" defeats "Y" because our logic is """undeniable""". Let's debate
The system that this place is based on works like that, at this point you aren't debating the characters present in the thread, you are arguing against the whole system or atleast the people who tend to use it.
Now tossing "muh system" aside, I don't see a way to actually conclude a fight at this level even with the current method.
The joke here is that we think the fights happen in a visual-novel-style or Marvel way
Excuse me? Come again? There is no visual-novel-style or Marvel way sort of fights. All fights follow the very same principle, you pit two characters against each other, you compare their feats and standings within their own verse to conclude the winnner. Simple as that.
But this is not a SpaceBattle Forum (nope, I'm not not trying to offend those who belive in them)
Spacebattl- what? why would you even bring that up? SB is my main forum and I can assure you that the only difference between VSBW and SB is that one uses Dimensional/Outerversal Tiering while the other does otherwise.
then why Hajun can't defeat Shub-Niggurath? Or Anu? Both are 1-A (Anu could reach 0 and the other 1-A key is pretty much undefeatable) and Hajun has an immeasurable Taikyoku
Because Shub-Niggurath's scaling chain in Cthulhu Mythos is longer than Shinza Bansho? Or that no one bothers arguing for Hajun? Or that no one knowledgeable was present when the debate took place? 1-A fights never get added, and sometimes you could even see characters that are supposedly higher than the vast majority of the site losing against "fodder" 1-As.
Oh and by the way, Anu never fought Hajun in other keys besides Anui-El.
Truth be told, there is no real winner in 1-A fights, as I have mentioned earlier, while they aren't entirely beyond math, they are still way beyond our dimensioned logic, we can't measure them let alone putting them under a sub-tier, we're just slapping an incredible amount of speculation onto them to deduce who would win. It's always stomp or inconclusive. That's why it never gets added.
Your whole problem with the things going on right now seems to be "Why aren't people debating anything other than level of transcendence?"
Because that's all 1-A fights are, let's say that you made a thread with "degrees of transcendence" equalized so that you could argue about other factors, what would happen?
The answer is that people will have no clue which one of the participant's abilities are superior since the only reason why their ***** work is because of their standings within their respective verses.
And that's not any better than what we're discussing.
The only reason why we're arguing "degrees" is because they are utterly immeasurable as they transcend all sort of dimensional structures, the only way to try and conclude the fight is to compare their position in their own verses' beyond dimensional metaphysical hierarchy.
Also what's with the high 1-A arguments? You aren't High 1-A/0 because you are infinitely above others, it's that you have few or no limitations with the minimum requirement being complete transcendence over other 1-As in your verse. ( atleast transcend 1-A as much as they transcend a regular man. )
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@Raven
Although isn't it debatable on whatever or not they are entirely beyond math though?
Dimensions after all has been used in math before and there has been a lot of scientific theories regarding multiple universes and etc, anyway.
Although isn't it debatable on whatever or not they are entirely beyond math though?
Dimensions after all has been used in math before and there has been a lot of scientific theories regarding multiple universes and etc, anyway.
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@Raven
I was quoting Aza from this thread here anyway although not as a argument, just a point of view: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2372625
I was quoting Aza from this thread here anyway although not as a argument, just a point of view: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2372625
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I think it was debated before that they aren't entirely beyond math, maybe our math, but they surely have their own, that's why a 1-A can be above another in their verse.
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Si, yo entendemos y hablas espanol, yo prefiero ingles sin embargo porque es mi primer idioma.Tony di bugalu said:
@rather
I thought there was a way to type those on an english keyboard my bad then.
