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Cultivator Demon vs Hadou God

@Raven

I doubt that they have their math when it comes to 1A as this is where Burden of Proof comes into play as I don't recall them using mathematical equations and ect,. In fact in Umineko, the only thing worth mentioned will be physics being used such as Schrödinger's cat when it comes to quantum mechanics.
 
Paul Frank said:
@rather

I thought there was a way to type those on an english keyboard my bad then.
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I am not useing an english keyboard There might be some way via key combinations or something (I doubt it though), but there is no key that says " ó ". I can however do these: ö├ûūÜä├äß
 
Even though you can't rank them using quantified numbers, you can still quantify them using their superiority in quality over other 1-As in-verse. ( more like speculating. )

That's why I said that they aren't entirely beyond the concept of mathematics.

EDIT: Lol why we aren't debating about Meng Hao and Reinhard?
 
Uh that is a bit of a weird logic given how the tiering system put it this way:


"Characters that have no dimensional limitations.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being.

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained."


So tbh not sure given the fact we also study math itself in its totality after all.
 
And that's why 1-A fights never get added.

Not only is it complicated, it also requires considerable amount of knowledge on both sides.

And most people don't qualify, including myself.

The topic just doesn't work I guess.
 
Ravenous4th said:
And that's why 1-A fights never get added.

Not only is it complicated, it also requires considerable amount of knowledge on both sides.

And most people don't qualify, including myself.

The topic just doesn't work I guess.
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Yeah that is true sadly.
 
I can't 100% conclude it myself, I only know bits about Xianxia. Maybe we should just let it die.

My dream thread ;-;

EDIT: To peach, if you want to debate other stuffs besides AP, make a 1-A thread and equalize their AP then see what happens. That's all I can suggest to help.
 
Tony di bugalu said:
Also, Hajun stomps Anu in whatever 1-A key he has :v
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Tony, I've made a thread regarding that matters and you didn't provide proofs about what you said.

Not saying that he would be defeated but if he's going to win then argue why. And Raven, please, I didn't say anything bad about SpaceBattles, they are awesome and you know it. As an example: Zaratthustra provide at least nine paragraphs of why Meng could defeat Reinhard, Witch showed us logic that was coherent regarding this fight and even in the SM (Star Maker) fight he provide me evidence of why Yato defeat The Maker and even you, Raven, debated the meanings behind the power of Reinhard. Let's keep this afloat. Like I said before: I'm not saying that Reinhard wouldn't be able to defeat Meng but if he does then why?
 
Because I was and I am not interested in that thread? At least not interested enough to be the one debating.

Raven already pointed why Rein could win here and Zara was providing quotes to determine the level of trascendence of Meng, he never argued that Meng or Rein could win.

Also, since you seem very interested in this match and debating, why don't you argue why Meng or Rein would win here?

Also, you are the one keeping this thread alive everyone else is tired of 1-A battles at this point
 
I thought I provided my reasonings why the possibility of Reinhard winning is more likely in most cases.

It's not that I didn't debate, It's just that the entire thread somehow turned into a shitshow 1-A roast.

@Tony

I was quite eager to debate this actually. Unfortunately, it didn't go the way I wanted.

i enjoy debating 1-A much more than the lower tiers though
 
A kindred soul I see. I kever expected to met another one :v

I know, I'm sorry about that but if Peach comes back and gives some arguments then you can keep playing. Or if Zara has favorites then he can debate too
 
I like both of them as for one I've made the verse while for the other I've played the game 4+ time (idk if its a rookie number or a good one?), anyway I didn't argument anything as I'm the one who made the post and it would look like favoritism otherwise.

Like I said I don't know how to put Meng Hao in 1-A (how far in it), I've tried to think but it's hard because it doesn't have the power system of Masada aka Taiji.

The closest we can go is this: Once a Cultivator becomes a Transcender he's above Dao itself making him 1-A (how far is unknown but for the sake of it let's put it x1) so a baseline.

Transcendent = Step 4 another name for it. The Step has two Big Realms within: Daosource and Ancestor Realm. Those two at their own have sub-realms:

Daosource - Early Daosource, Mid Daosource, Late Daosource, Peak Daosource, and Half a Step Ancestor.

Ancestor - Early Ancestor, Mid Ancestor, Late Ancestor, and Peak Ancestor

Then we have the big jump, the infinitely more powerful Step 5 aka Unknown Realms.

You may ask what Step is: A Step is how far they "walked" in cultivation, each denoting a qualitative change of their being.

Step 1 is the Mortal (Spirit Realm) where the cultivator are still mortals.

Step 2 is the Immortal (first Realm) where the cultivators ascended and become a superior being compared to the mortal ones and here they start to learn immortal techniques and are to not be treated in the normal way. Then comes the Ancient Realm (second Realm) where the cultivators stabilize and increase their powers, but also start to comprehend the Essences. There exist the third mini-realm (Quasy Dao) cultivators who failed to step in the next big one (The Terracotta Soldier is a good example).

Step 3 is the Dao one where cultivators have gained at least one Essence and a max of 9. Here they are the closest to Dao and are also the strongest they can be without breaking their "limit" and going beyond the Vast Expanse.

Step 4 is Transcendence when a cultivator successfully transcends and become a Daosource itself, there are also special path types for it: The Ghost, The Devil, The God, The Demon and The Immortal, meaning it can be only one of them, the rest are the "normal" Transcendors. Here they can create, destroy and changes Laws, Concepts and the Dao. They also exist as a will over everything in existence.

Step 5 is the Unknown Realms which is for those cultivators that have "gone even further beyond" (the pun, but a true one). It was never explained, the closest you get is the quote that I've presented where it says they are almost Omnipotent (one which I don't like to use), as we don't truly know as there is only that evidence.
 
I've already stated that there is only one interpretation that puts him on a level that would beat Reinhard, the rest? Reinhard stomps.

And the difference between each sub-realm, from what has been shown, doesn't translate into degrees of transcendence at all. The steps does however.

While in Reinhard's case, you could even argue that he's even above infinite higher outerversal space with 90 Taikyoku on top.

Meng Hao can't win unless he is at the very least above 90 degrees of transcendence, which is unlikely.

We don't know how far he into 1-A he is, but it's certainly within the scope of 2 to countless degrees of transcendence.
 
Ravenous4th said:
You mean how he was defeated by the Eastern Expedition?
That has nothing to do with this debate, the reason why he lost is because the tumor was extracted and many other factors.
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Yet still put up quite the fight despite his weakened state as he was dealing with multiple 1As who were going against him.

Wait, why are you assuming he was defeated by the Eastern Expedition? According to Hajun's page, he was going against these 1As beings:

"Without the Tumor, Hajun is a normal Hadou God and is vastly weakened, but is still immensely powerful for Marie, Reinhard, Ren, and Mercurius to defeat; even having taken down the former three with him to death at the end of their battle)"
 
And the thread is treated as casual enterainment as the rule from the Versus Thread Rules page stated:

"Please note that although matches between 1-A characters are technically not forbidden, results from such matchups will not be added to the character profiles. Due to the unfathomably high gaps of power between characters within this category, and how hard it is to accurately compare levels of complexity between the cosmologies of different fictional works, these threads should not be discussed for anything beyond casual entertainment."
 
I think you're misunderstanding something. I am not assuming something that has already happened.

Hajun, in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, was ultimately defeated by the combined might of the Eastern Expedition.

The one you're referring to is the fight that happened after Marie's route which can go two ways:

1. Dies Irae cast lose, K3 happens.

2. Dies Irae cast win, with Mercurius being a sole survivor, he then ascends to the throne and AeF to Rea's route. This one is considered the canonical ending in Dies Irae.

We're here for casual entertainment though. 1-A fights were almost never taken seriously.
 
Hajun is such a massive false equanlency though. And yes, the eastern expedition was the one who actually killed him in the end. Hajun rofled the living crap out of all Dies Irae Hadou Gods.

Multiple things needed to happen for Habaki and co to even stand a chance (Hajun losing his tumor brother sister thing and him being weakend by his status as Throne god) so no. A lower 1A aint touch a higher 1A
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
The first part is a overstatement and is debatable.

In additional to that, Umineko no Naku Koro ni, Warhammer 40,000, and some other 1A verses never show this kind of treatment in the first place nor were they shown to be superior to one another anyway.
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The first part of that sentence is what happened and isn't debateable in the slightest,

Umineko, are you kidding? Having a higher layer in Umineko is the basis of the cosmology.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
F
Click to expand...
What about Tenma Yato though? He managed to hold off Hajun's law long enough until he was defeated by Hajun himself.
Hajun wasn't even trying to enforce his Supreme Law on Tenma Yato, he essentially wasn't giving a shit.

If anything, Tenma Yato never clashed against Hajun head-on, he merely took on finite portion of Hajun's seemingly infinite power, his outflow, and it eroded his world to the point that his Taikyoku value decreased to 70.

Hell, he couldn't even reach the Throne after attempting to drill through the Singularity for 8000 years.
 
Higher layer from Umikeno though doesn't seemingly suggest their own superority over one another otherwise they wouldn't be shown to be affect one another. Now I don't really know about the Chao Gods from Warhammer 40, but I am uncertain if they were stated to be superior to one another.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Higher layer though doesn't seemingly suggest their own superority over one another otherwise they wouldn't be shown to be affect one another. Now I don't really know about the Chao Gods from Warhammer 40, but I am uncertain if they were stated to be superior to one another.
Click to expand...
Did you read the VN? Or at least the Manga? Because what you said was just blatantly wrong and ignores the entire mechanic behind everything in Umineko. Pieces? Gameboards? The Voyagers literally explaining that going down the ladder is them evolving further and further?
 
@First Witch

I think the thread has derailed to the point that it's not about Meng Hao or Reinhard anymore.

It's more of 1-A explanation and roast at the same time.
 
@First


Evolving doesn't mean they can not affect each other at all. Honestly I failing to see what exactly implies they still can not affect each other in the case for Umineko.
 
Ravenous4th said:
@First Witch
I think the thread has derailed to the point that it's not about Meng Hao or Reinhard anymore.

It's more of 1-A explanation and roast at the same time.
Click to expand...
Even I wasn't roasting on any 1A characters at all intentionally anyway. You and the others were involved in this as well. Honestly at this point, I will have to completely disagree on certain things anyway.
 
You do realize that every witch in the series uses lower avatars to interact with said reality right?
 
@First

Which only supports the fact they are capable to interact with each other directly even the scans posted kinda show that on the very blog itself.
 
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