The Problems With Tier 0 (Staff Only)

Introductio

So this is a long time coming.

For the longest time I've had numerous issues with how this wiki handles the concept of Omnipotence and how it applies to fictional characters through Tier 0, or "Questionably Omnipotent".

I have come to observe that the wiki suffers from several instances of double standards when it comes to the Tier, and how superflous it really is in relation to the tiering system. And as such I believe it should be removed.

But let's go one step at a time, and explain each individual problem I have with the Tier and how it's handled, shall we?

Tier 0 Definitio
First, let's define Tier 0. To quote the Tiering System page...


Sounds simple enough, right? Tier 0 is for beings which are supreme and boundless and transcendental in their verses.

However, Tier 0's are not omnipotent, which is already expressed by how we classify such characters and the Omnipotence page itself. This means we understand how Omnipotence can't exist in fiction and how these characters shouldn't be held to Omnipotent status.

Right?

Well, no. This notion is entirely contradicted by the High 1-A Tier, which is for characters who are so above the regular parameters for 1-A that they are essentially supreme and transcendent themselves, and would easily qualify for Tier 0 if not for this or that limitation, or a higher being yet in the verse.

At a first glance this seems okay, but quick observations reveal a severe crack in the system. Namely, that there is no real qualitative difference between High 1-A and 0.

Superfluousness of Tier 0
So High 1-A and Tier 0 are functionally identical, and the former is only really used when there is a higher being in the verse which will be Tier 0, or when an otherwise a being who perfectly qualifies for Tier 0 demonstrates the tiniest, most minute limitation conceivable.

This manifests in the form of characters who power-wise qualify for Tier 0... But don't demonstrate Omnipresence or Omniscience. Or are appear to have an origin point. Or have any matter of personality or agency.

We see this time and again. Tier 0 usually gets reserved for super vague, uninteresting Supreme Beings who conform to western notions of a Monotheistic Omnipotent God, while more original Supreme Beings get relegated to High 1-A. Even though Attack Potency / Tiering wise they are functionally the same.

This is why The One Above All is Tier 0 and the Law of Identity is High 1-A. The former isn't more powerful than the later. Not at all. They fulfill similar roles and have similar levels of described supremacy over their respective verses. But because the former is a literal God with Capital G, and the later looks like a cute schoolgirl and admits to "Not know everything", she is perceived as weaker.

This is obviously not the case. In fact the Tiering System currently admits that a High 1-A from one verse can be "stronger" than another Verse's Tier 0...

Wait, so why the hell are they separate?

Contradictions in the System
We both simultaneously acknowledge that a High 1-A can be "stronger" than a Tier 0, while also banning all High 1-A and Tier 0 matches because "It's impossible to define which is more powerful at such a level".

These are two diametrically opposite ideas which cannot coincide. Either Tier 0 is above Tier High 1-A due to being higher, as thus worthy of the title of "Absolute Infinity", or they are so similar that it is impossible to differentiate and determine which is stronger.

It's clearly not the former as High 1-A only exists as a middle-ground between the more traditional supreme Tier 0s, and things which would either qualify as Tier 0 if not for a stronger being (Like Yog-Sothoth), or would be Tier 0 if not for a minor limitation (Like the Law of Identity)...

But again, this notion is completely contradicted by the admittance that a High 1-A can be more powerful than a Tier 0 of another verse. And the notion that lacking in Omnipresence or Omniscience can remove your Tier 0 is addressed in the Omnipotence page itself. To quote:

"raw power and stature do not necessarily carry over to the complete versatility of omnipotence"
So Tier 0 is not about the complete versatility of Omnipotence, it's about raw power which places you above all hierarchies... But then this is clearly not how we treat Tier 0 depending on the Verse. The approach is super inconsistent because people naturally perceive Tier 0 as the "Omnipotent Tier", and every perceived limitation is viewed as a reason to downgrade it.

I could go on, but I think I made a case for the various issues with Tier 0 and the inconsistencies.

So what exactly is my plan to fix it? Simple: Merge the two tiers.

Merging Tier 0 with High 1-A
Think about it...

• We describe as High 1-A as something that would be Tier 0 if not for a more powerful thing, or a minor limitation
• We state that it is nearly impossible to compare a Tier 0 from one verse with High 1-As of another due to how high and vague the powers handled in the Tiers are.
• We also - paradoxically - Admit that a High 1-A could be stronger than a Tier 0 of another verse...
• ... But they don't get Tier 0 due to not conforming t set standards, such as having an equal opposite being, or lacking Omniscience.

There is literally no difference in Attack Potency between High 1-A and Tier 0. All the differences come in other tiers, such as Speed and Intelligence, and in-verse characteristics such as the presence of equal or higher beings.

As such, High 1-A and 0 have really no business being separate. They should be merged into one Tier, as they would more elegantly express the level of hierarchical supremacy and power they handle, and end the contradictions and double standards that come with the "Questionable Omnipotence" of Tier 0.

Either make all Tier 0s High 1-As, or remove High 1-A and make all High 1-As Tier 0, but removing the "Questionable Omnipotence" power.

Both work, and can be done incredibly easily as a result of the small number of such profiles.

Note: Staff Only

It's here

This make sense.

I actually like remove High 1-A and make all High 1-As 0", since caping at a subtier seems...weird.

I would be fine with that too.

I disagree.

I mean I myself agreed with Sera's idea of melting everything into 1-A but to be honest I'll just let everyone else talk about it Cause none of the verses I give a fork about have that high of a tier lol

I'm not sure this should be open to everyone or just a Staff Thread...

I agree.

fine for me

High 1-A looks a lot better than 0 to me. Just having the number 0 on pages looks awkward.

Ultraman223 said:

I would like to make a suggestion. How about we merge High 1-A with tier 0 and call it "Ultimate Tier (Omnipotent)"

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Terrible Idea for a name. The usage of Omnipotence at all in either tier leads to people making assumptions and misinterpretations.

Just make all High 1-As tier 0 and call it a day.

I agree with removing high 1-A and making them flat out tier 0. I just can't agree with going against authors intent and say that one guy isn't completely omnipotent because we don't believe it to be.

PaChi2 said:

I disagree.

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At least give a reason.

Tier 1 is megaversal or metaversal.


Tier 0 is omniversal which is complete control of the canon continuity and all possible other continuity. Of a piece of fiction to put it simply ownership of the IP.


The only person who at one point was tier 0 was Stan Lee or TOAA when he owned Marvel. And now he has passed away RIP.


Other such beings could be a Godhead from TES.


Or Fetherine from Umineko, but even she brings herself down to contain herself as Toya.

And so it has begun.

Also I agree.

At least give a reason.

It's probably PaChi manipulation

Man, I seriously hope 0 gets removed instead of High 1-A. "Tier: 0" just looks so bad.

What are people even saying here.

Megaversal and Omniversal? Tier 0 is "completely omnipotent"?

These are exactly the things I talked against in my post. Tier 0 shouldn't be treated as omnipotence because there's functionally no AP difference between it and High 1-A.

Terrible Idea for a name. The usage of Omnipotence at all in either tier leads to people making assumptions and misinterpretations.

What about a tier with a name in relation to transcendence? Most/all characters in the tiers are either completely or fully transcendent beings.

Would this mean franchises like CM woyld get 2 tier zeros or High 1-As?

If everyone become Tier 0

No one is.

At least give a reason.

Are you new. I agree.

I personally agree with all High 1-A's becoming Tier 0

Let's pray for the safety of this thread.

But tier 0 sounds awesome, don't remove it

I think this makes sense.

Jobbo said:

Man, I seriously hope 0 gets removed instead of High 1-A. "Tier: 0" just looks so bad.

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That's a bad reason, I'm afraid. Caping at a subtier (which exists solely to differentiate them from the next tier up) would look bad and is inconsistent tiering wise. That's like if 11-C was "Low 11-B".

RavenSupreme said:

If everyone become Tier 0
No one is.

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That's Deep

Tier 0 is good for reference purposes.


It defines who is the being with most continuity power.


So to be honest i disagree Tier 0 should be separat.


There is a different between owners/creator and a perciever.


Real life living people always > greater than fiction material.

I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Tier 0 isn't about real life people, never was. When did you get this notion?

@Sera

I mean, as soon as you remove tier 0, High 1-A stops being a sub-tier, and simply becomes the highest tier.

Jobbo said:

Man, I seriously hope 0 gets removed instead of High 1-A. "Tier: 0" just looks so bad.

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Sorry but if anything, capping at a sub-tier looks even worse.

I'm not sure I agree either. To me it's seemed like the presence or absence of limitations matters more at this level than raw scaling, which is the major differential. While a high 1-A could be superior in raw power, it would still have some other limitations that a "weaker" tier 0 would not, and as such is diffetent. I'm pretty sure that Shub-Niggurath scales higher than some of the High 1-As and 0s, and yet we aren't merging everything with 1-A, are we?

So...Is the name of the tier the only problem people have so far?

@Kaltias.

Any "low"/"high" tier is a subtier by definition. What prevents High 1-A from just being called 0?

But i will disagree with toaa being 1-A because of non canon comic.

Why is there no TL;DR

Agreed.

I do agree with Matt, but i would personally still try to differentiate between an Azzy and an Yoggy. Naturally, there are differences in the tier after the erasur of either of the tiers, like it is with every other tier. But knowing how vast the difference between them is, it just dosnt seem right to outright put them in one tier together.

Maybe dividing the tier not in power but in their hierachical standing? Like making clear whos the supreme one in their respective verse? I dont know, i cant put up an argument to be frank, im fine with whatever we go, just saying my opinion.

If we are to put this through, I'd say that bumping High 1-As to 0 is a better option, since capping at a sub tier is a little strange. This would probably have to push guys like Yog who are only there via an actual tier 0 existing into 1-A though.