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Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1.5)

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Now if u have an issue with whatever the tier 0 scaling is, i would not be the man to correct you, as i have 0 clue nor do i care for the Cthulhu scaling here, im merely just a fan of Lovecraft. However, if you want to continue trying to argue the narrative all things arent derivative / facets of Yoggy, im happy to correct you.
 
all you keep doing is randomly threatening to “roast” people when i’m 100% sure nobody would care. this is the internet. we’re on a chat forum about mythos and you’re throwing a temper tantrum like a demented 5 year old

go back to reddit, like you always do
 
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Jibz said:
It's a long ass story, with the mentions far and few inbetween, these mentions whilst out of order and relatively close to the origin point of your original quote, with the heavy description of individual facets being literally in the same passages. My argument isnt to prove tier 0, my argument is to prove how utterly ridiculous it is to believe that all things arent derivative of the SA.

Here's an IN ORDER passage from Carter which'll help quantify how ridiculous your narrative is.
Click to expand...
All those quotes really do is talk about various Carter fragments. My narrative isn't really ridiculous. All I am saying is the SA is the archetype of all wizards, great thinkers etc across creation. This naturally includes all kinds of Carters and his ancestors and descendants since all of them are supposedly great thinkers.

Idk why you think spamming quotes that don't contradict my interpretation will somehow destroy my position.
 
Darksmash said:
All those quotes really do is talk about various Carter fragments. My narrative isn't really ridiculous. All I am saying is the SA is the archetype of all wizards, great thinkers etc across creation. This naturally includes all kinds of Carters and his ancestors and descendants since all of them are supposedly great thinkers.

Idk why you think spamming quotes that don't contradict my interpretation will somehow destroy my position.
Click to expand...
The Carter is just an imagery of everything. If you blatantly ignore the mentions of "limitless being and self" "All in One", the countless descriptions of various other specified archetypes (nice to see your ignoring the bountiful mentions and just caring for "all wizards, great thinkers, etc across creation etc") then sure your argument makes sense. That is if you ignore the fact it is merely listing rather then just being a blatant walking contradiction.

I'm not dealing with this anymore. I've sufficently made my point, and anything that is "b-but specific mention contradict1!!!!1" i'll just ignore untill better proof is provided. Because their's alot more riding on this interpretation then your blatant cherrypicking masked as "Lovecraft silly teehee".
 
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Jibz said:
The Carter is just an imagery of everything. If you blatantly ignore the mentions of "limitless being and self" "All in One", the countless descriptions of various other specified archetypes (nice to see your ignoring the bountiful mentions and just caring for "all wizards, great thinkers, etc across creation" etc then sure your argument makes sense.
Click to expand...
I didn't ignore them. I just said they are vague and never really go into detail. "All in one and one in all" is an extremely flowery phrase that can be applied to all the archetypes since they permeate almost all of time and space.

"Limitless being and self" again can be applied to all the archetypes.

Also what "bountiful mentions"? I just said that the mentions of the Carter facets don't contradict what I said. You really aren't being clear about anything you say at all here.

Jibz said:
I'm not dealing with this anymore. I've sufficently made my point, and anything that is "b-but specific mention contradict1!!!!1" i'll just ignore untill better proof is provided. Because their's alot more riding on this interpretation then your blatant cherrypicking masked as "Lovecraft silly teehee".
Click to expand...
Jesus christ learn to deal with people having different opinions than you. This entire paragraph was absolutely unnecessary and contributed nothing to the argument.
 
Darksmash said:
I didn't ignore them. I just said they are vague and never really go into detail.
Click to expand...
Its so utterly in your face and specific i dont see how it would be "vague". Alot of the descriptions i showed were more specific then the great thinkers statement.
Darksmash said:
"Limitless being and self" again can be applied to all the archetypes.
Click to expand...
Clarify
Darksmash said:
Also what "bountiful mentions"? I just said that the mentions of the Carter facets don't contradict what I said. You really aren't being clear about anything you say at all here.
Click to expand...
Literally nearly every quote ive given is evidence of a mention of an infinitesimal portion of SA
Darksmash said:
Jesus christ learn to deal with people having different opinions than you. This entire paragraph was absolutely unnecessary and contributed nothing to the argument.
Click to expand...
Prolly because you shut down my argument as just "spamming quotes" just ticked me the wrong way, but that's fair i shouldn't have been so unnecessarily cruel (even if it was correct). But you're blatantly ignoring evidence under the guise of "its too vague" which isn't even an argument. Its your own ignorance.

I'm now genuinely done here, since you're devolving into nothing-burgers. This is not an insult this time, im just assessing the situation. I see no reason to continue in dialects in a point that nobody except for you believes in and which people have had to correct you upon, using inverse and wider context as a rebuttal. Your argument is flimsy, ignores all contradictory evidence towards your narrative, and all other interpretations. It also fails to account for how wider context, and inverse narratives point to the argument that it is infact an All in One. You can continue to spout that it's a contradiction, because frankly its the one fo the most consistent statements throughout the book.
 
CraigTucker said:
I'm neutral on this scaling but correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't those feats based on Azathoth dream??
Click to expand...
Lovecraft doesn't support this idea directly.

He describes Azathoth as being "The Nuclear Chaos" and the "Daemon Sultan in the Center of Infinity" and the "Lord of All Things" and other such terms, and then in the Azathoth Poem in Fungi from Yuggoth he describes Azathoth as babbling idiotically in his sleep while the flowing waves from the music played around him accidentally create entire universes and define their physical laws.

The idea that Azathoth Dreams Up All Existence actually originates from the 1940 Short Story The Hydra by Henry Kuttner:

Hydra

A unique tale of the fourth dimension, a dangerous experiment in occultism, and the ghastly horror that reached back from that other plane of space--intro.
www.fadedpage.com www.fadedpage.com

There was a certain spot Outside where Scott could achieve his desire. In that place thought was obscurely linked to energy and matter, because of an insane shrill piping (Ludwig said) that eternally filtered from beyond a veil of flickering colors. It was very near the Center, the Center of Chaos, where dwells Azathoth, the Lord of All Things. All that exists was created by the thoughts of Azathoth, and only in the Center of Ultimate Chaos could Scott find means to live again on earth in human form. There is an erasure in Edmond’s notes at this point, and it is only possible to make out the fragment: “. . . of thought made real.”
Click to expand...
 
Jibz said:
Its so utterly in your face and specific i dont see how it would be "vague". Alot of the descriptions i showed were more specific then the great thinkers statement.
Click to expand...
Yes because Carter facets are more specific than "great thinkers", because the former are part of the latter. It is utterly in our faces, I agree. What isn't in our faces is the fact that the SA encompasses the other archetypes too, something that's quite literally never stated aside from exaggerated interpretations of the "one in all and all in one" phrase which doesnt convey any strict meaning on its own

Although based on what others posted while TTGOTSK might not agree with that, it seems the wider context of Lovecraft's ideology still considers Yog Sothoth an omnipresent entity, so I guess there's that.


Jibz said:
Clarify
Click to expand...
All archetypes consist of limitless self and being since the amalgamations of various kinds of specific identities throughout creation are cutoff from them.

Jibz said:
Literally nearly every quote ive given is evidence of a mention of an infinitesimal portion of SA
Click to expand...
I just want a quote saying that the other archetypes are an infinitesimal portion of it. My interpretation already agrees with Carter facets and the like being infinitesimal portions of it, so again posting that wouldn't really do anything.


Jibz said:
Prolly because you shut down my argument as just "spamming quotes" just ticked me the wrong way, but that's fair i shouldn't have been so unnecessarily cruel (even if it was correct). But you're blatantly ignoring evidence under the guise of "its too vague" which isn't even an argument. Its your own ignorance.
Click to expand...
I didn't shut them down. I just said that spamming them wont do anything as it doesn't contradict my interpretation. The only quotes that even remotely help your point are the ones talking about encompassing all of space and time or the one in all and all in one thing, both of which are the only ones I called vague.
 
Planck69 said:
Honestly, everything that was already agreed upon could already be applied. The Tier 0 discussion just came out of left field.
Click to expand...
Okay. That is probably fine then. Is somebody here willing and able to handle it?
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Lovecraft doesn't support this idea directly.

He describes Azathoth as being "The Nuclear Chaos" and the "Daemon Sultan in the Center of Infinity" and the "Lord of All Things" and other such terms, and then in the Azathoth Poem in Fungi from Yuggoth he describes Azathoth as babbling idiotically in his sleep while the flowing waves from the music played around him accidentally create entire universes and define their physical laws.

The idea that Azathoth Dreams Up All Existence actually originates from the 1940 Short Story The Hydra by Henry Kuttner:

Hydra

A unique tale of the fourth dimension, a dangerous experiment in occultism, and the ghastly horror that reached back from that other plane of space--intro.
www.fadedpage.com www.fadedpage.com
Click to expand...
Interesting, I didn't know the idea was from a story with such close proximity to Lovecraft's time, always thought the "dreaming" thing was the Chaosium interpretation much later on. Since he was linked to Lovecraft's circle would it be possible that Henry Kuttner knew things about Azathoth we don't that Lovecraft may have mentioned in correspondences?
 
Event_Horizon said:
Interesting, I didn't know the idea was from a story with such close proximity to Lovecraft's time, always thought the "dreaming" thing was the Chaosium interpretation much later on. Since he was linked to Lovecraft's circle would it be possible that Henry Kuttner knew things about Azathoth we don't that Lovecraft may have mentioned in correspondences?
Click to expand...
Quite possibly since "Fungi from Yuggoth" was only published in full posthumously.
 
Thank you.

If you write a list of the EXACTLY worded titles for all of the pages that you need unlocked, I can handle that for you.
 
Well the revisions were accepted I'm just wondering how exactly are we going to go about merging the keys for the Outer Gods and the Archetypes. You can't exactly just lazily fuse the explanations.
 
While we're here I was thinking of an addition to the "intelligence" section of the Ultimate Gods page.

It was dark when the galley passed betwixt the Basalt Pillars of the West and the sound of the ultimate cataract swelled portentous from ahead. And the spray of that cataract rose to obscure the stars, and the deck grew damp, and the vessel reeled in the surging current of the brink. Then with a queer whistle and plunge the leap was taken, and Carter felt the terrors of nightmare as earth fell away and the great boat shot silent and comet-like into planetary space. Never before had he known what shapeless black things lurk and caper and flounder all through the aether, leering and grinning at such voyagers as may pass, and sometimes feeling about with slimy paws when some moving object excites their curiosity. These are the nameless larvae of the Other Gods, and like them are blind and without mind, and possessed of singular hungers and thirsts.

The "singular hungers and thirsts" quote seems overlooked as it is quite interesting in of itself. "Singular" here means (and this is common for Gothic writers as well as Lovecraft) "strange, bizarre, out-of-the-ordinary, peculiar", and "hungers and thirsts" (especially considering it's the plural, which makes the phrase more vague and complex than if it where just "hunger and thirst) I take to mean along the lines of "instincts, desires, drives". So this phrase means "possessed of strange/bizarre instincts/desires", indicating perhaps a wholly alien driving force or vague and strange consciousness behind the entities. Thoughts?
 
Well, probably "Animalistic" according to our standards at least.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The Other Gods are mindless and driven by unknowable instincts we can't possibly fathom, it tracks.
Click to expand...
"Faith had urged him on, over the precipice and into the gulf, where he had floated down, down, down; past dark, shapeless, undreamed dreams, faintly glowing spheres that may have been partly dreamed dreams, and laughing winged things that seemed to mock the dreamers of all the worlds. Then a rift seemed to open in the darkness before him, and he saw the city of the valley, glistening radiantly far, far below, with a background of sea and sky, and a snow-capped mountain near the shore."

And now Atal, slipping dizzily up over inconceivable steeps, heard in the dark a loathsome laughing, mixed with such a cry as no man else ever heard save in the Phlegethon of unrelatable nightmares; a cry wherein reverberated the horror and anguish of a haunted lifetime packed into one atrocious moment: ―The other gods! The other gods! The gods of the outer hells that guard the feeble gods of earth! . . . Look away! . . . Go back! . . . Do not see! . . . Do not see! . . . The vengeance of the infinite abysses . . . That cursed, that damnable pit . . . Merciful gods of earth, I am falling into the sky!”

Onward unswerving and relentless, and tittering hilariously to watch the chuckling and hysterics into which the siren song of night and the spheres had turned, that eldritch scaly monster bore its helpless rider; hurtling and shooting, cleaving the uttermost rim and spanning the outermost abysses; leaving behind the stars and the realms of matter, and darting meteorlike through stark formlessness toward those inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time wherein black Azathoth gnaws shapeless and ravenous amidst the muffled, maddening beat of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes. Onward—onward—through the screaming, cackling, and blackly populous gulfs—and then from some dim blessed distance there came an image and a thought to Randolph Carter the doomed. Too well had Nyarlathotep planned his mocking and his tantalising, for he had brought up that which no gusts of icy terror could quite efface. Home—New England—Beacon Hill—the waking world.

Onward—onward—dizzily onward to ultimate doom through the blackness where sightless feelers pawed and slimy snouts jostled and nameless things tittered and tittered and tittered. But the image and the thought had come, and Randolph Carter knew clearly that he was dreaming and only dreaming, and that somewhere in the background the world of waking and the city of his infancy still lay. Words came again—―You need only turn back to the thoughts and visions of your wistful boyhood.‖ Turn—turn—blackness on every side, but Randolph Carter could turn

It seems the Other/Ultimate Gods and their ilk enjoy a good old laugh
 
Event_Horizon said:
"Faith had urged him on, over the precipice and into the gulf, where he had floated down, down, down; past dark, shapeless, undreamed dreams, faintly glowing spheres that may have been partly dreamed dreams, and laughing winged things that seemed to mock the dreamers of all the worlds. Then a rift seemed to open in the darkness before him, and he saw the city of the valley, glistening radiantly far, far below, with a background of sea and sky, and a snow-capped mountain near the shore."

And now Atal, slipping dizzily up over inconceivable steeps, heard in the dark a loathsome laughing, mixed with such a cry as no man else ever heard save in the Phlegethon of unrelatable nightmares; a cry wherein reverberated the horror and anguish of a haunted lifetime packed into one atrocious moment: ―The other gods! The other gods! The gods of the outer hells that guard the feeble gods of earth! . . . Look away! . . . Go back! . . . Do not see! . . . Do not see! . . . The vengeance of the infinite abysses . . . That cursed, that damnable pit . . . Merciful gods of earth, I am falling into the sky!”

Onward unswerving and relentless, and tittering hilariously to watch the chuckling and hysterics into which the siren song of night and the spheres had turned, that eldritch scaly monster bore its helpless rider; hurtling and shooting, cleaving the uttermost rim and spanning the outermost abysses; leaving behind the stars and the realms of matter, and darting meteorlike through stark formlessness toward those inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time wherein black Azathoth gnaws shapeless and ravenous amidst the muffled, maddening beat of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes. Onward—onward—through the screaming, cackling, and blackly populous gulfs—and then from some dim blessed distance there came an image and a thought to Randolph Carter the doomed. Too well had Nyarlathotep planned his mocking and his tantalising, for he had brought up that which no gusts of icy terror could quite efface. Home—New England—Beacon Hill—the waking world.

Onward—onward—dizzily onward to ultimate doom through the blackness where sightless feelers pawed and slimy snouts jostled and nameless things tittered and tittered and tittered. But the image and the thought had come, and Randolph Carter knew clearly that he was dreaming and only dreaming, and that somewhere in the background the world of waking and the city of his infancy still lay. Words came again—―You need only turn back to the thoughts and visions of your wistful boyhood.‖ Turn—turn—blackness on every side, but Randolph Carter could turn

It seems the Other/Ultimate Gods and their ilk enjoy a good old laugh
Click to expand...
Also taking in consideration Lovecraft's own quote: "Humour is but the faint terrestrial echo of the hideous laughter of the blind mad gods that squat leeringly and sardonically in caverns beyond the Milky Way. It is a hollow thing, sweet on the outside, but filled with the pathos of fruitless aspiration."
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out.
 
Here's a draft I made for the Ultimate Gods' new AP explanation last month:

The Ultimate Gods reside in the Ultimate Void, a changeless, absolute totality beyond all perspectives that likewise transcends all conceptions of being, size, and boundaries, holding the entire cosmos as nothing but an atom in its genuine and ultimate infinity. Said cosmos consists of an infinite-dimensional multiverse in which lower-dimensional "phases" are derivative of higher-dimensional ones, followed by a vast hierarchy of "limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity," corresponding to increasingly deeper and more abstract perceptions of infinity in a world of pure dreams beyond space and time.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, to me that seems fine to apply at least.
 
Do we have a calculation for Cthulhu's Attack Potency, or should I simply place "At least 7-A, likely 6-A" on his profile?
 
All statistics of such tiers need calculations or listed standard feats as a basis.
 
The following pages need to be unlocked:

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Ultimate Gods

The Ultimate Gods are all-powerful entities that reside within the formless outer chaos beyond existence, standing as the supreme governors and rulers of all reality, inhabiting a graveyard of rotten worlds and eternally revolving around the throne of their master and creator, Azathoth, playing...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Nyarlathotep (Cthulhu Mythos)

Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos, is one of the all-powerful entities residing in the formless chaos outside of existence known as the Ultimate Gods, being essentially a manifestation of their collective soul and psyche, and acting as their messenger within lower planes of existence, often...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Shub-Niggurath

Shub-Niggurath is one of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods residing in the formless chaos outside of all time and space. Her role is one of the most significant of her kin, the "All-Mother" of existence, birthing countless abominations. With her consort she has conceived numerous progeny, and their...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Randolph Carter

Randolph Carter is the protagonist of several stories written by H.P. Lovecraft, as well as the focus of Lovecraft's first novella, The Dream Quest of the Unknown Kadath. His bloodline had lived in Arkham for many years, dating all the way back to the wizard Edmund Carter, who had come to Arkham...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Hypnos (Cthulhu Mythos)

And as I looked, I beheld the head rise, the black, liquid, and deep-sunken eyes open in terror, and the thin, shadowed lips part as if for a scream too frightful to be uttered. There dwelt in that ghastly and flexible face, as it shone bodiless, luminous, and rejuvenated in the blackness, more...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Azathoth (Cthulhu Mythos)

Azathoth is the lord and master of all existence, governor of the outer chaos that serves as the residence of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods and primordial creator of all things, who resides on a black throne at the center of the Abyss, from which he rules all of time and space, lying in a...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos)

Yog-Sothoth is one of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods that reside in the formless chaos past the confines of dimensioned space, and the most important and prominent of them all, being directly associated with the entity known as "The Supreme Archetype," who reigns chief among the inhabitants of...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Hunting Horrors

The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath The hunting-horrors are the vicious servants of the Crawling Chaos, sent to do its bidding when the god does not feel like doing the task itself. Being mythical entities whose apparitions haunt the Dreamlands, the writhing beings are said to constantly shift...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Nightgaunts

The Nightgaunts are a species of flying creatures inhabiting the Earth's Dreamlands, being described as beings of borderline demonic appearance, possessing smooth, whale-like skin, curving horns, and a blank expanse of flesh where one would expect a face to be, and being rumoured to dwell in...
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