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This makes sense to me.
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Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1.5)
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Please elaborate.
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I disagree because "The Other Gods", while indeed one of their mostly used titles, only works because it's used as a point of comparison between them and the "gods of earth" (deliberately lower-case).
Something like "The midle and feeble gods of earth, with their petty squabbles, their hatred and their love, their little ambitions and their dreams, are naught but insignificant dust before the Other Gods, infinite, mindless and eternal, dancing forever to the whining of daemon pipes in that dark void that is called the Ultimate Abyss"
The short story "Nyarlathotep", where they are first mentioned by Lovecraft, introduces them as "The Ultimate Gods"
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I know of at least one calc that involved the Sinking of R’lyeh though I’m not sure if that’s what he is referring to.
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That calc was never evaluated but it isn't that.
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That calc also assumes that the entire sinking happened in less than a second which is rather absurd.
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Okay. I suppose that "The Ultimate Gods" should preferably continue to be what we refer to them as then.
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Anyway...
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Ah, it's fine to leave it as Ultimate Gods then. Just as long as it's not "Outer Gods" haha
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"Outer Gods" is fine to put in the Classification at least under parenthesis.
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Bump
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I can probably help tonight.
CosmicWreck
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This was never addressed. Reading the Mythos explanation blog, there was never really any statement comparing the Supreme Archetype with the other archetypes beyond them being facets of it, nor was there any established hierarchy besides the obvious. The tier 0 was based on the idea that the Ultimate Reality is where the Cosmos is seen as a complete whole, but in the Ultimate Void this was already done in accordance by all the other entities as well according to their will and there was no evidence given that the Ultimate Reality and Ultimate Void were two different things.
Or remove the 0 key all together.
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The description of the Supreme Archetype in Through the Gates of the Silver Key is Tier 0.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
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That...addresses absolutely nothing and is not an argument.
I guess you're using the All in One limitless self expression as tier 0 though which, fine I guess.
I guess you're using the All in One limitless self expression as tier 0 though which, fine I guess.
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Darksmash
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There's no statement saying the other archetypes are it's facets either. It's pure headcanon as far as I am concerned.
Either way, I am in disagreement with tier 0. Dunno why "all in one and one in all" means anything beyond just being omnipresent across the cosmology(Heck technically it shouldn't even mean that considering the supreme archetype is very explicitly stated to be the archetype of all great thinkers etc, which is an extremely specific property that would have no reason to be assigned to him if he were the archetype of absolutely everything. This is a redundancy that arises from pure misinterpretation)
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This is meaningless because the story goes into detail on how everything is a part and facet of IT. Simply because it favors thinkers and dreamers in particular due to Lovecraft's own biases as a writer doesn't mean its not God.
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Obvious hyperbole on my part. Reading comprehension is key
matt already addressed that tid bit, thanks tho
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Darksmash
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The story never goes in """detail""" about everything being a facet of it. The only thing closest to that is the one in all and all in one quote that is bloated and exaggerated to convey meanings it doesnt convey. Also sure, Lovecraft decided to say that all great thinkers on every world are facets of IT when he could have easily said everyone is a facet of it within the exact same context.
Either way, this wouldn't be enough for tier 0 with either interpretation
??? You quoted the right post?
I fail to see where Lovecraft linked that wikipedia article in his story. No tier 0 evidence here
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?
"Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing.
In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are."
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The Ultimate Mystery exists
In any case, nitpicks aside, I've said what I wanted to say. If you choose to ignore it, or otherwise refuse to acknowledge that you've read and understood it, that's on you.
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Lovecraft actually references Monism in his letters actually. He seemed to actually believe that the universe was eternal and infinite and that all beings are facets of the same One, Infinite Whole.
Since Lovecraft mentions "Haeckelian Monism" specifically, let's look at some quotes to see what it's all about:
Haeckel and Monism.
Life and thought of Ernst Haeckel, 1835-1919, with selected texts.
www.pantheism.net
"Dualism, the widest sense, breaks up the universe into two entirely distinct substances - the material world and an immaterial God, who is represented to be its creator, sustainer and ruler. Monism, on the contrary … recognizes one sole substance in the universe, which is at once "God and nature"; body and spirit (or matter and energy) it holds to be inseparable. The extra-mundane God of dualism leads necessarily to theism; and the intra-mundane God of the monist leads to pantheism. [20]"
"Pantheism teaches that God and the world are one. The idea of God is identical with that of nature or substance … In pantheism God, as an intramundane being, is everywhere identical with nature itself, and is operative within the world as force or energy … Pantheism is the world system of the modern scientist. [288]"
"Pure monism is [not] … identical with the theoretical materialism that denies the existence of spirit and dissolves the world into a heap of dead atoms. On the contrary, we hold with Goethe that "matter cannot exist and be operative without spirit not spirit without matter" … Matter, or infinitely extended substance, and spirit (or energy), or sensitive and thinking substance, are the two fundamental attributes or principal properties of the all-embracing divine essence of the world, the universal substance. [20-21]"
"The universe, or the cosmos, is eternal, infinite and illimitable. Its substance, with its two attributes (matter and energy) fills infinite space, and is in eternal motion. This motion runs on through infinite time as an unbroken development … [13]"
This is fundamentally identical to how existence and Yog-Sothoth are described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key.
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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Already mentioned the second one in my post, and the first one simply talks about the properties of the archetypes in a flowery manner.
?
"Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing.
In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are."
And?
You haven't said anything worthwhile and you haven't made yourself clear.
Interesting detail. However, this connection still wouldn't be enough for tier 0 as it simply means he is omnipresent across the cosmologyLovecraft actually references Monism in his letters actually. He seemed to actually believe that the universe was eternal and infinite and that all beings are facets of the same One, Infinite Whole.
Since Lovecraft mentions "Haeckelian Monism" specifically, let's look at some quotes to see what it's all about:
Haeckel and Monism.
Life and thought of Ernst Haeckel, 1835-1919, with selected texts.www.pantheism.net
"Dualism, the widest sense, breaks up the universe into two entirely distinct substances - the material world and an immaterial God, who is represented to be its creator, sustainer and ruler. Monism, on the contrary … recognizes one sole substance in the universe, which is at once "God and nature"; body and spirit (or matter and energy) it holds to be inseparable. The extra-mundane God of dualism leads necessarily to theism; and the intra-mundane God of the monist leads to pantheism. [20]"
"Pantheism teaches that God and the world are one. The idea of God is identical with that of nature or substance … In pantheism God, as an intramundane being, is everywhere identical with nature itself, and is operative within the world as force or energy … Pantheism is the world system of the modern scientist. [288]"
"Pure monism is [not] … identical with the theoretical materialism that denies the existence of spirit and dissolves the world into a heap of dead atoms. On the contrary, we hold with Goethe that "matter cannot exist and be operative without spirit not spirit without matter" … Matter, or infinitely extended substance, and spirit (or energy), or sensitive and thinking substance, are the two fundamental attributes or principal properties of the all-embracing divine essence of the world, the universal substance. [20-21]"
"The universe, or the cosmos, is eternal, infinite and illimitable. Its substance, with its two attributes (matter and energy) fills infinite space, and is in eternal motion. This motion runs on through infinite time as an unbroken development … [13]"
This is fundamentally identical to how existence and Yog-Sothoth are described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key.
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That's just your opinion man
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In all seriousness, should we apply the accepted parts before continuing the discussion? I feel that the ultimate rating of the SA wouldn't change much of what's been accepted so far aside from it.
CraigTucker
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I'm neutral on this scaling but correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't those feats based on Azathoth dream??
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No. We haven't used that misinformation for like, a year now.
CosmicWreck
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He was just saying that the very fact that SA needs to explain itself as an achetype embodying very selective kinds of entities is contradictory to its introduction where it is described that it is the All-In-One and honestly, it is a very reasonable thing to say especially if one hasn't read up on monism or hasn't taken it into effect.
Also, Lovecraft is very contradictory, with realms being described as "undimensioned" areas in one story and far greater realms still using terms that imply that the concept of dimensions is being used. In a versus battle community discourse should always be encouraged wherever reasonable points have been brought up and from what I can see, nothing said here has been ludicrous enough to deserve such a response. I'm sorry but this "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality just strikes me as incredibly juvenile.
I agree with this.
Jibz
He/Him- 3,111
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" Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."
Okay, so now its all great thinkers, great wizards, great artists, boy, and all local being, son, father, grandfather, etc child, infant, young man, old man, each stage of an individual being being merely one of infinite phases of SA. Now how about:
" the boy of 1883, the man of 1928, the various ancestral beings who had formed his heritage and the bulwark of his ego, and the nameless denizens of the other aeons and other worlds which that first hideous flash of ultimate perception had identified with him"
and
"Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial"
So now its all all great thinkers, great wizards, great artists, boy, and all local being, son, father, grandfather, etc child, infant, young man, old man, each stage of an individual being being merely one of infinite phases of SA, furthermore the boy of 1883, the man of 1928 (probably Alexander Fleming), various ancestral beings, denizens from eons ago, All ages of Carter, Carter, and all his ancestors both human and pre human are merely facets of SA.
Okay, Okay now how about:
"are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds"
and
"The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE"
and
"He knew that in this ultimate abyss he was equidistant from every facet of his archetype—human or non-human, earthly or extra-earthly, galactic or trans-galactic; and his curiosity regarding the other phases of his being—especially those phases which were farthest from an earthly 1928 in time and space, or which had most persistently haunted his dreams throughout life—was at fever heat"
So let me hear this. It's now all great thinkers, great wizards, great artists, boy, and all local being, son, father, grandfather, etc child, infant, young man, old man, each stage of an individual being being merely one of infinite phases of SA, furthermore the boy of 1883, the man of 1928 (probably Alexander Fleming), various ancestral beings, denizens from eons ago, All ages of Carter, Carter, and all his ancestors both human and pre human, the people of the ultimate abyss (presumably the old ones), all the cosmic secrets of Carter (presumably the cosmic beings he meet), every human, non human, earthly or extra earthly, galactic or transgalactic are merely facets of SA.
Now let's do this one last time.
"All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH"
It is beyond completely and utterly stupid to think a mere mention of the specific facets of Yoggy here, is contradictory. No. It is to paint a picture. A picture first shown in the fundamental, most direct description of Yog-Sothoth, built upon via the imagery of Carter. It is right there, in your face. From the very start.
"All-in One and One-in-all".
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
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Interpreting the quotes out of the order they appear inside the story isn't really helping much(Also all derivatives associated with Carter are naturally part of great thinkers anyway), but either way Lovecraft is a self contradictory messy verse and I can't care less about what happens with SA. There's just nothing tier 0 here.
Jibz
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It's a long ass story, with the mentions far and few inbetween, these mentions whilst out of order and relatively close to the origin point of your original quote, with the heavy description of individual facets being literally in the same passages. My argument isnt to prove tier 0, my argument is to prove how utterly ridiculous it is to believe that all things arent derivative of the SA.
Here's an IN ORDER passage from Carter which'll help quantify how ridiculous your narrative is.
There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself. Some of the glimpses recalled dreams—both faint and vivid, single and persistent—which he had had through the long years since he first began to dream, and a few possessed a haunting, fascinating, and almost horrible familiarity which no earthly logic could explain.
In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.
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