Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1.5)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

Yeah. Carter is a wizard / thinker / dreamer, which means his Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. But it is silly to put that as a key for him because ALL wizards, thinkers, artists, dreamers are facets of the Supreme Archetype

 

[Jibz]

Yeah. Carter is a wizard / thinker / dreamer, which means his Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. But it is silly to put that as a key for him because ALL wizards, thinkers, artists, dreamers are facets of the Supreme Archetype

ill respond to this in the morning, its 5am and i really need to sleep, i cant think straight atm

 

[Jibz]

Yeah. Carter is a wizard / thinker / dreamer, which means his Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. But it is silly to put that as a key for him because ALL wizards, thinkers, artists, dreamers are facets of the Supreme Archetype

Carter becomes one with all infinite possibilites of himself:

"There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself."


"In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality."

"Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time"

"He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments."

"Faced with this realisation, Randolph Carter reeled in the clutch of supreme horror—horror such as had not been hinted even at the climax of that hideous night when two had ventured into an ancient and abhorred necropolis under a waning moon and only one had emerged. No death, no doom, no anguish can arouse the surpassing despair which flows from a loss of identity. Merging with nothingness is peaceful oblivion; but to be aware of existence and yet to know that one is no longer a definite being distinguished from other beings—that one no longer has a self—that is the nameless summit of agony and dread."

The fact it's referring to "thinkers, artists dreamers" is due to Quasi Carter being the singularity of all deviations of Carter outside of "space and time" this is perfectly encapsulated here:

"A slight change of angle could turn the student of today into the child of yesterday; could turn Randolph Carter into that wizard Edmund Carter who fled from Salem to the hills behind Arkham in 1692, or that Pickman Carter who in the year 2169 would use strange means in repelling the Mongol hordes from Australia; could turn a human Carter into one of those earlier entities which had dwelt in primal Hyperborea and worshipped black, plastic Tsathoggua after flying down from Kythanil, the double planet that once revolved around Arcturus; could turn a terrestrial Carter to a remotely ancestral and doubtfully shaped dweller on Kythanil itself, or a still remoter creature of trans-galactic Shonhi, or a four-dimensioned gaseous consciousness in an older space-time continuum, or a vegetable brain of the future on a dark radio-active comet of inconceivable orbit—and so on, in the endless cosmic circle."

All things deviate from Carter in some way or form, a mere change making him a wizard. See it all comes back to Carter. Its not all Wizards, dreamers and thinkers being a deviation of Yog sothoth. They are deviations of Carter, who IS Yog sothoth. All Carters are all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time the eternal "Carter" (the fact its in quotation marks signifies its not TRULY Carter) who is the supreme archetype.

Thus the All in One is Carter. This makes sense because the phrase "All in One, One in All" DIRECTLY CORRELATES with Quasi-Carter's existence. The phrase and his existence are deeply linked. All variations of Carter are in One eternal Carter. And that One eternal carter is representative of All the Carters.

Conclusion: Overall, for now i believe Carter (Quasi-Carter to be specific) Should get a key for the supreme archetype untill there is evidence provided for the contrary that can poke some holes in the argument. Because as of now all the context, and the explicit statement of Carter's archetype being the Supreme Archetype leads me to that conclusion.

 

[Jibz]

Sorry for the chunks of text quotes i put in there, i just felt i had to have as much context necessary. I hope this clarifies some stuff. Lots of love and have a great day my fellow Lovecraft enjoyers!

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah. Carter is a wizard / thinker / dreamer, which means his Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. But it is silly to put that as a key for him because ALL wizards, thinkers, artists, dreamers are facets of the Supreme Archetype

This seems to make sense to me. I suppose that this is likely far too unreliable to add then.

Anyway, have the other suggested revisions that were accepted here been applied yet?

 

[Jibz]

This seems to make sense to me. I suppose that this is likely far too unreliable to add then.

Anyway, have the other suggested revisions that were accepted here been applied yet?

i dont see why it makes any sense due to the fact the statement of "wizards, thinkers, artists" is referring to the many infinitesimal Carter's that make up the supreme archetype. This is directly shown via "wizard" as (i shit you not) right above it talks about a singular change would turn Carter into a wizard.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, just because Carter is one of many aspects of the supreme archetype, this does not remotely mean that he is the supreme archetype in its entirety.

 

[Jibz]

Well, just because Carter is one of many aspects of the supreme archetype, this does not remotely mean that he is the supreme archetype in its entirety.

I think you misunderstand. Carter is one infintesimal part of the supreme archetype. Quasi-Carter is:

"There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself"

He is all of the infintesimal parts made whole. The supreme archetype. And i find it a rather mute point to argue Quasi Carter shouldnt be a key for Carter. We should ask KingPin to reiterate his point as i believe he could explain this ALOT better then i could.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It still seems like he is just an insignificantly small part of Yog-Sothoth though, much like everybody else in his setting, and as such it seems redundant to add a Yog-Sothoth key when the character already has a profile page of its own.

 

[Jibz]

Okay. It still seems like he is just an insignificantly small part of Yog-Sothoth though, much like everybody else in his setting, and as such it seems redundant to add a Yog-Sothoth key when the character already has a profile page of its own.

True, but if we are under the agreement that the carter beyond space and time is the supreme archetype. Shouldn't we denote that in some way.

 

[Antvasima]

But in that case we should logically have to mention it for all other Cthulhu Mythos characters as well.

Maybe it could be mentioned that the other CM characters are all part of Yog-Sothoth in a footnote in the entity's own page instead?

 

[Jibz]

But in that case we should logically have to mention it for all other Cthulhu Mythos characters as well.

Maybe it could be mentioned that the other CM characters are all part of Yog-Sothoth in a footnot in the entity's own page instead?

Why? It isnt Carter thats the supreme archetype. Its Quasi - Carter. Are any other character's described in a sense of singularity like Carter has?

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem to matter if they have been explicitly referred to as such if the same principle logically applies to them.

 

[Jibz]

It doesn't seem to matter if they have been explicitly referred to as such if the same principle logically applies to them.

Wouldn't that be assuming that Carter would be interchangeable with anyone. Perhaps, but i wouldn't see the point in that from a story perspective, especially seeing Carter's existence in the story.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I am not arguing that he is the same as all other characters, just that as far as I have understood, they are all still just tiny parts of Yog-Sothoth per definition.

 

[Jibz]

Again, I am not arguing that he is the same as all other characters, just that as far as I have understood, they are all still just tiny parts of Yog-Sothoth per definition.

Carter is. Quasi Carter isnt tiny parts of Yog Sothoth IT IS YOG SOTHOTH. It quite literally says as such in the story literally calling Carter's archetype the Supreme archetype as KingPin showed previously

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself"

But these "carters" are actually all different people. The whole point of the scene is that Carter's individuality was obliterated and that there is no self, only the One-in-All.

 

[Jibz]

But these "carters" are actually all different people. The whole point of the scene is that Carter's individuality was obliterated and that there is no self, only the One-in-All.

All these people while not being Carter, are all connected TO Carter. They all link to Carter (singularity) in some way. Which would make Quasi Carter the All in One. The fact they use Carter as the singularity and the fact he's the driving focus of this story and of many others. And that it is him who meets with Yog Sothoth shows that it isnt just "random diff people becoming one" but that Carter is what connects everything.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regardless, if this is an almost unique property of Carter himself, it should probably just lead to a footnote in his own profile page, as Yog-Sothoth already has a separate page for itself.

 

[Jibz]

Well, regardless if this is an almost unique property of Carter himself, it should probably just lead to a footnote in his own profile page, as Yog-Sothoth already has a separate page for itself.

I completely agree!

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Jibz]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

perhaps we should wait for KingPin's take on this before we see the matter as completely settled. I don't have discord so im unable to contact them myself. Is there any way of asking them?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regardless, if this is an almost unique property of Carter himself, it should probably just lead to a footnote in his own profile page, as Yog-Sothoth already has a separate page for itself.

I completely agree!

Okay. That is probably fine then.

@KingPin0422

What do you think about this?

 

[KingPin0422]

Oof, my bad, I got busy/distracted again :S

I'll type up some responses later.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[KingPin0422]

Yeah. Carter is a wizard / thinker / dreamer, which means his Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. But it is silly to put that as a key for him because ALL wizards, thinkers, artists, dreamers are facets of the Supreme Archetype

Yes. Every wizard, every artist, every thinker, etc. is a facet of the Supreme Archetype. I don't see how that refutes my point, though. Reread these quotes if you must:

There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself.

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE.

I will reiterate: the Supreme Archetype is singularly identified and characterized as Carter's archetype within the story in which it appears, while the Ultimate Gods, save for a select few like Nyarlathotep, are only ever defined as a general group of beings, and furthermore are never given any concrete associations between themselves and any specific people. As such, I want Carter to have a Supreme Archetype key, but no one else deserves a similar key for the regular Archetypes.

But in that case we should logically have to mention it for all other Cthulhu Mythos characters as well.

I don't see why that would be necessary when the Supreme Archetype is specifically the archetype of wizards, thinkers, dreamers, etc. Sure, it's the "All-in-One and One-in-All" and "the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole, unbounded sweep," which indicates that absolutely everything comes from it and is part of it, but only creatives such as Carter are its direct descendants; everyone else instead emerges from lesser archetypes and only participates in the Supreme Archetype by the transitive property (because as its title would suggest, it is chief among the archetypes).

Maybe it could be mentioned that the other CM characters are all part of Yog-Sothoth in a footnote in the entity's own page instead?

This is also wholly unnecessary. We don't do it for Twin Peaks, we don't do it for The Elder Scrolls, we don't do it for Marvel, DC, etc., and all of those verses define their respective supreme beings as the all-encompassing ground of being which everyone else is merely a particle of. The Cthulhu Mythos should be treated no differently. And while I'm at it, I should remind you that the first two examples I gave do have select characters with keys based on the supreme being: TP has The Fireman, Dido, and JUDY, while TES has Anu/ANU. Even in those verses, they are the only ones who have such keys despite that they are technically equally part of their supreme beings as everyone and everything else, and that is simply because the narrative explicitly characterizes them as being avatars of those supreme beings. I have not yet been given reason to believe that Randolph Carter's case is different.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will reiterate: the Supreme Archetype is singularly identified and characterized as Carter's archetype within the story in which it appears, while the Ultimate Gods, save for a select few like Nyarlathotep, are only ever defined as a general group of beings, and furthermore are never given any concrete associations between themselves and any specific people. As such, I want Carter to have a Supreme Archetype key, but no one else deserves a similar key for the regular Archetypes.

This is because the story is from Carter's POV. If the Supreme Archetype is the Archetype belonging to every wizard / thinker / dreamer in existence, they would also see it as their own Archetype.

 

[Jibz]

This is because the story is from Carter's POV. If the Supreme Archetype is the Archetype belonging to every wizard / thinker / dreamer in existence, they would also see it as their own Archetype.

that sounds like an assumption, nothing in the story even remotely implies this except for the fact the reason Carter was there was due to the silver key merely being in his possession. Personally i think it isn't necessary because Quasi Carter, is basically everyone. Despite Carter being the one explicitly described, its a character so far away from the character that is Carter its just unnecessary. Well that and i'm rather new to all this so im not sure if it facilitates enough requirements to be seen as a key.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regardless, if this is an almost unique property of Carter himself, it should probably just lead to a footnote in his own profile page, as Yog-Sothoth already has a separate page for itself.

So, about this...

 

[Jibz]

So, about this...

i believe this is the best solution from all proposed so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to apply that small revision then, KingPin.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Henry Kuttner, Spawn of Dagon

Shout out to this story written by one of Lovecraft's friends only one year after he died that gives actual quantifiable feats to Dagon and the Deep Ones.

 

[Jibz]

“Oh, there’s truth in the tale. Eons and unimaginable eons ago, before mankind existed on earth, only the waters existed. There was no land. And from the slime there sprang up a race of beings which dwelt in the sunken abysses of the ocean, inhuman creatures that worshipped Dagon, their god. When eventually the waters receded and great continents arose, these beings were driven down to the lowest depths. Their mighty kingdom, that had once stretched from pole to pole, was shrunken as the huge land masses lifted. Mankind came—but from whence I do not know—and civilizations arose. Hold still. These cursed knots—”

“I don’t understand all of that,” Elak said, wincing as the wizard’s nail dug into his wrist. “But go on.”

“These things hate man, for they feel that man has usurped their kingdom. Their greatest hope is to sink the continents again, so that the seas will roll over all the earth, and not a human being will survive. Their power will embrace the whole world, as it once did eons ago. They are not human, you see, and they worship Dagon. They want no other gods worshipped on Earth. Ishtar, dark Eblis, even Poseidon of the sunlit seas. . . . They will achieve their desire now, I fear.”

You'd think they'd have greater ambitions lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am going to become the Joker

 

[Jibz]

I am going to become the Joker

you should really go CRAZY and use lovecraft's family tree :demen moment:

 

[Antvasima]

Henry Kuttner, Spawn of Dagon

Shout out to this story written by one of Lovecraft's friends only one year after he died that gives actual quantifiable feats to Dagon and the Deep Ones.

So should we include information from this story in order to figure out the proper mechanics of the verse?

 

[KingPin0422]

Alright, given that this discussion has stalled for long enough from my sudden interjection, I think it would be in our best interest to apply the revisions already accepted in this thread (regarding the Archetypes, Nodens, Hypnos, etc.) and address the newly brought-up points in another thread, along with other miscellaneous stuff like updating some of the god tiers' powers. How does this sound? I can write new tier justifications later, unless someone else would like to handle that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There is a wealth of stories written by Lovecraft's contemporary friends while he was still alive that we barely looked into.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, given that this discussion has stalled for long enough from my sudden interjection, I think it would be in our best interest to apply the revisions already accepted in this thread (regarding the Archetypes, Nodens, Hypnos, etc.) and address the newly brought-up points in another thread, along with other miscellaneous stuff like updating some of the god tiers' powers. How does this sound? I can write new tier justifications later, unless someone else would like to handle that.

I suppose that is probably fine.

 

[Jibz]

Presupposing we're under the notion that Carter IS the Supreme Archetype, but it's pointless to place it on his page, shouldn't the rating of:

Outerverse level (An eternal aspect of the All-in-One)

be changed