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Could this be considered as soul transmutation?
- Thread starter Jaakubb
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If I commonly refer to something as a rectangle, does it mean that I am asserting that it is not a square? (No) They have reason to not call it a "soul" specifically because as I said earlier it is a very methodical verse. And when they don't care too much about being methodical, they do, in fact, call it a soul.KarmodF said:
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The Forerunners are religious and do believe in some religious aspects, but their religious beliefs aren't actually true. The actual books outright state that it's just digital data. Memories and data are immaterial and abstract things, but they're not supernatural like ghosts or deities are. Because what we actually see is just humans and others getting transformed into computer AI's and those same AI's later becoming Prometheans, Sentinels, ect. But it's just their programmed memories, nothing supernatural/mystical about it.
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Not stated directly, but we can see this if we look at context. Waypoint says that a composer takes a sentient being and makes it so that their body is destroyed, while the rest of them (their life force and consciousness) is put into data readable by machines. Also, halopedia says that "a mind, by itself and particularly when separated from its biological body[immaterial], is often referred to as an essence." Keep in mind that as I said earlier, mind is part of soul. The two are not mutually exclusive. Admittedly, I don't have the visual guide where this info allegedly comes from, but I don't think they would lie about a detail like this.KarmodF said:
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What I said is that modern humans are methodical and do not use terms such as "soul." However, forthencho at the time where he said that quote was obviously NOT a modern Human and did not have the exact same attitudes toward naming that the modern humans did.KarmodF said:
Where does it say this? To be honest, I don't have any actual quotes either but I at least have info from halopedia, which while not infallible, is still probably SOMEWHAT reliable (they do cite their sources after all). Anyways, the data is just how the machines store the souls. Data is not a specific type of material like chi or matter is. We can't just assume that the forerunners store data in the same way that we do with computers (electrical stuff and numbers and whatnot). Even the forerunners don't understand exactly how the composers work, so I HEAVILY doubt that the stored essences in the composer are just electrical charges that correspond to numbers (traditional concept of "data").DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, halopedia says that essences and memories of an individual (called "impressions") are two entirely different things.
And aren't the covenant the ones who believe in a false religion? Idk, I haven't finished the forerunner trilogy.
Also, data and memories aren't immaterial. They are there physically. They're electrical stuff that corresponds to numbers and collections of neurons, respectively.
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Is there something else to comment about? People above already quoted something that state that the essence in this case refer to the mind.
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Let me just try to keep track of the points made.
Against soul transmutation: Why don't they commonly call it a soul? (counterargument: they have no reason to) Essences are not souls (counterargument: They fit every definition of a soul)
I don't see where any of the counterarguments were debunked. All you said was trying to discredit the almost universally accepted definition of a soul.
Against soul transmutation: Why don't they commonly call it a soul? (counterargument: they have no reason to) Essences are not souls (counterargument: They fit every definition of a soul)
I don't see where any of the counterarguments were debunked. All you said was trying to discredit the almost universally accepted definition of a soul.
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They don't meet the criteria for souls. The word "Essence" doesn't equate to one by default as even the very wiki and the Halo Encyclopedia define essence as what the Forerunners use to describe their minds. And actually, digital data, memories, and minds are non-physical. They may be stored inside physical objects but the substances are not physical. By that logic, the Soul isn't non-physical because it's stored inside the body. There is no real single definition of soul as it varies from Spirituality to Spirituality. But the Soul is the immortal spirit that resides in the body and travels to the afterlife upon death.
Again, the purpose of the Composer is to drain the memories of the targets and transform them into computer AIs. There's no proof of them effecting the soul, nor can it be assumed that it prevents people from ascending to the afterlife. It also cannot be assumed to work on ghosts among other things. It's described on the very wiki as being neural/mental networks. There's nothing spiritual about it.
Again, the purpose of the Composer is to drain the memories of the targets and transform them into computer AIs. There's no proof of them effecting the soul, nor can it be assumed that it prevents people from ascending to the afterlife. It also cannot be assumed to work on ghosts among other things. It's described on the very wiki as being neural/mental networks. There's nothing spiritual about it.
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The problem is that the term and requierements to consider something a "soul" are just to broad in fiction, basing them out of the modern concepts for soul dont indicate anything as its a concept we dont even know it truly exist, just speculate about it.
For example, in JoJo somebody can control his soul to comeback to his body and only perish once its soul has left their body for a period of time. Are the former showings something common for a soul in fiction (Or even mentioned in some dogmas/theories about how a soul behaves)? Of course not. But we consider as such since they have been call like that, we have no other confirmation of something being a "soul" apart of calling it one.
Plus, an essence are just minds transformed into data and have been specified, called and used as such, being incorporeal is just an aspect common for, well, many things, like data and even air, not just souls.
EDIT: Dont get the wrong idea, souls do exist in Halo and your points are fair for discussion, but we heavily lack the evidence to support it.
For example, in JoJo somebody can control his soul to comeback to his body and only perish once its soul has left their body for a period of time. Are the former showings something common for a soul in fiction (Or even mentioned in some dogmas/theories about how a soul behaves)? Of course not. But we consider as such since they have been call like that, we have no other confirmation of something being a "soul" apart of calling it one.
Plus, an essence are just minds transformed into data and have been specified, called and used as such, being incorporeal is just an aspect common for, well, many things, like data and even air, not just souls.
EDIT: Dont get the wrong idea, souls do exist in Halo and your points are fair for discussion, but we heavily lack the evidence to support it.
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Fine, if the term "soul" is so stupidly vague I guess it doesn't matter. The thing is, what if MC gets into a battle with someone who has soul manip? Does the latter character win for the sole purpose (no pun intended) of the word "soul" being a stupidly vague term? Or would it be inconclusive?KarmodF said:
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John has 0 resistance to soul manipulation; though, the character wouldn't win by default just because they have soul manipulation. There would still be a variety factors including speed, range, tier etc and it may often depend on who hits first. But it Vs threads, yes it would be assumed via verse equalization that Master Chief has a soul and is indeed susceptible to soul manipulation.
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I will do so.
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