Could this be considered as soul transmutation?

[Jaakubb]

What are the different types of transmutation? I've heard that resistance to any physical transmutation means resistance to all physical transmutation, but not necessarily soul transmutation here. Is this true? Also, what differentiates soul transmutation and physical transmutation. There are some examples that seem to be in the middle. So anyways, take the composer in halo for example. Couldn't it also be considered as soul transmutation because it manipulates an "essence" AKA "neural structures" (source ) so that it becomes easily manipulated by and imprisoned in machines? Keep in mind that a soul according to Google is "the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal", which seems to fit perfectly with consciousness in halo. I'm not sure where the line is though, so if I'm wrong could you tell me?

 

[Antoniofer]

With what I see about the Composer, what it does is turn people into data and robotize them as prometheans (or something like that). Don't known much beyond that, but do not sounds like it affect the soul beyond turning their mind digital.

 

[Jaakubb]

But in halo, their mind is described as an "essence" that is immaterial (not just their physical brain), which seems to be fitting with the term "soul."

 

[KarmodF]

Essence are just one's mind, not souls.

 

[Jaakubb]

It's an immaterial manifestation of their consciousness, which is literally the exact definition of a soul.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, thats the mind, souls are the immortal essence of tye living.

 

[Jaakubb]

Can't souls be killed in many verses?

 

[Antoniofer]

Killed by, conventional killing? When people dies their soul go to other place, if that is what you mean.

 

[Jaakubb]

So "essence" isn't a soul because it isn't immortal or? Why isn't it a soul? They meet the criteria

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Souls and minds are two widely different things. Souls exist on an Astral Plane and are a religious/spiritual concept; which is vastly different than the mind or memories. All the Composer does is stores their memories as digital data and transfers them into mechanical constructs.

 

[KarmodF]

The composer converts one's body into data alongside their mind and seals them into the Composer's abyss, the mind is latter used to make Promethean warriors, which is why most of the people killed by the Composer's transmutation we're Ancient Human soldiers and generals, If they converted the soul, is would have been referenced right away, instead of classify them as an "essence".

The only mention of the Composer affecting souls is Forthencho's quote but nothing else, even guides only mention them as "essences", there is no such criteria for something to be a soul due to how open for interpretation it is, that's why it needs to be referenced as such or have enough backup statements of the way it works, but in this case it doesn't.

 

[Jaakubb]

It is on the astral plane though. Composer makes use of "neural physics" which posits that a transcendent "neurophysical energy permeates the cosmos." Also, mind refers to the physical brain, correct?

 

[KarmodF]

Neural physics are a totally diferent can of worms.

Also, mind refers to the physical brain, correct?

No.

 

[Jaakubb]

So are we saying that whether or not something is considered a "soul" is based on word choice and not on some kind of meaningful criteria? Maybe this is a problem with how we consider minds vs souls as a whole. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

If they converted the soul, is would have been referenced right away, instead of classify them as an "essence"

Soul is a word that leans more towards the religious side. Isnt halo a verse that generally tries to be as scientific and methodical as possible (like say we discovered an observable soul today, scientists probably wouldn't call it a soul) with an exception being the ancient humans of course.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mind is simply the ability to have a thought process; it isn't physical but it's not spiritual either. The soul is the spiritual true self that transcends to the afterlife when life on earth has ended; which doesn't even exist in Halo.

 

[KarmodF]

So are we saying that whether or not something is considered a "soul" is based on word choice and not on some kind of meaningful criteria? Maybe this is a problem with how we consider minds vs souls as a whole. Or maybe I'm just wrong.

Souls do exist in Halo, but the Composer doesnt affect them, not to mention that we really dont have such criteria for what is and isnt a soul.

 

[Jaakubb]

OK, I'm seeing two contradicting statements. Are souls are in halo but are treated as entirely different concepts from "essences"? Also, don't we assume that all characters have souls?

 

[KarmodF]

OK, I'm seeing two contradicting statements. Are souls are in halo but are treated as entirely different concepts from "essences"? Also, don't we assume that all characters have souls?

Yes to both.

 

[Jaakubb]

Source for souls being treated as different from essences? That would be convincing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

By verse equalization, we typically assume all characters have souls so that soul manipulation does effect the characters. However, souls and ghosts have never been shown in the Halo franchise. Halo's lore is fairly secular/atheistic in nature and real gods do not exist in the verse. And Soul Manipulation especially has never been demonstrated anywhere in the verse.

 

[Jaakubb]

However, souls and ghosts have never been shown in the Halo franchise. Halo's lore is fairly secular/atheistic in nature and real gods do not exist in the verse.

As I said, halo is intended to be methodical and scientific right? Of course no one is commonly referred to as a god (there are some exceptions actually). The precursors were pretty much gods. Again, this is an issue of word choice and nothing more.

Souls do exist in Halo, but the Composer doesnt affect them

Nvm, I think you're half right. The wiki (not sure if its sources are reliable) says that there are "essences" and "patterns." Patterns lean more towards the physical side, while essences are "in many ways comparable to the metaphysical concept of a soul." Keep in mind that this is a quote from the wiki though, not any source. The point is I'm not the only one who thinks this.

 

[KarmodF]

Source for souls being treated as different from essences? That would be convincing.

In translations of Forerunner records, a mind, by itself and particularly when separated from its biological body, is often referred to as an essence
	~ Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide, page 132​

Its similar to an essence in the sense that its metaphysical and incorporeal, but it has never been referenced as such and both characteristic are also shared with how literature and how science tends to intrepret one's "mind".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not even the Precursors were actual god in the spiritual sense; just an ancient race that predated every other race and had advanced cybernetic technologies such as Star Roads.

 

[KarmodF]

Dont listen to DDM btw, souls do exist in Halo.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Everlasting and I have been discussing these types of stuff offsite, and he has a much better sense of judgement regarding the lore. And yes, Precursors are not real gods, and stuff like "They purposely let themselves be killed" is completely false. They actually failed to save themselves and legit tried to fight back. Even during the retreat, they were unable to escape. But they're not as potent as people think they are.

I'm going to work on the final revisions eventually.

 

[KarmodF]

Yeah, no.

Anyways, the topic has been concluded, this can be closed.

 

[Jaakubb]

In translations of Forerunner records, a mind, by itself and particularly when separated from its biological body, is often referred to as an essence
	~ Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide, page 132​

Its similar to an essence in the sense that its metaphysical and incorporeal, but it has never been referenced as such and both characteristic are also shared with how literature and how science tends to intrepret one's "mind".

Modern science (well, the atheistic interpretation at least. Many scientists are religious) says that the mind is just a result of all of the processes occuring in the brain. It is not physical, correct, but it is abstract. Again, it not being referenced as a soul is simply an issue of word choice. Do we take this into account with omnipotence (I would have problems with how we handle omnipotence in extremely rare occasions where the author actually understands the concept of omnipotence in the way that religious scholars understood it, but this never really happens so low 2-C is a fine place to put so-called "omnipotent" characters)? No. To make this worse, one of the ONLY quotes that even mentions souls in halo by name talks about how the composer affects "souls." I'm not saying that this quote by itself is enough to prove it, but the point is that "it has never been referenced as such" is kind of moot as it souls are rarely mentioned at all.

And yes, Precursors are not real gods

As I've said before, it all comes down to word choice. In the riordan verse, hermes is considered to be a god even though he's way weaker than the precursors (at least 4-B).

 

[Jaakubb]

wait don't close it yet even karmod and ddm can't agree wtf

 

[KarmodF]

I mentioned that modern science interprets them as such just to give a point of reference of where they got the concept of essence/mind, not that they actually based said concept from science.

Also, you should put the quote you are talking about to prove your point.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Mind =/= Soul, we've been over this countless times. And the definition of mind is the consciousness. A dead body can have a brain without a mind, and computer AI's have minds but no souls, bodies, or brains. But anyway, all the Composer does is collect their minds, stores them as digital data, so they can eventually be transformed into Promethean robots to serve the Forerunners. It's not the same thing as let's say Jedah does.

 

[Jaakubb]

Which quote, this one?

The Composer! So many possibilities and capabilities tied up in that strange name... A Composer of minds and souls!
Again, this isn't my main evidence, it's kind of circumstantial, so please don't think that I am basing my entire argument on this one quote. I'm just saying that it is not true that souls have never been mentioned as essences (because he's referring to the composer, which composes essences).

 

[Jaakubb]

The Mind =/= Soul, we've been over this countless times. And the definition of mind is the consciousness.

What do you mean? The immaterial manifestation of consciousness? Or the processes that occur in the brain as an abstract whole? Or some other thing? Because the two are entirely different. Mixing up definitions in an argument over which word is used is a big no-no. Also are you saying that computer AIs are conscious?


Then we may need to elaborate on the word "conscious" as well.

 

[Antoniofer]

Going by the quote above is clear that the essence refer to the mind, and take into account the mind is by default immaterial and abstract, but is not immortal nor contains ones life-force like the soul, is like information.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Immaterial manifestation of Consciousness" and "Processes that occur in the brain as an abstract whole" are both definitions of mind. Also, dictionary definitions don't quite cut it. The Soul is like the "Immortal breath of life granted by a higher power or a spiritual pressense". I really don't want to get into a debate about religion or spiritual warfare, but souls and minds are not the same thing. And there's also no proof of Composers effecting souls nor can it be assumed it works on ghosts and spirits for instance.

 

[KarmodF]

What Anto and DDM said, the Composer is consistently stated to affect one's mind, not soul.

 

[Jaakubb]

And there's also no proof of Composers effecting souls nor can it be assumed it works on ghosts and spirits for instance.

But they effect essences, which are basically souls, which is what we are arguing right now. We can't just beg the question. If they're made of ectoplasm or something though, then probably not.

DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
Also, dictionary definitions don't quite cut it. The Soul is like the "Immortal breath of life granted by a higher power"

OK, I get that your definition is just a broad one to give me the sort of gist of what a soul is, but if definitions don't matter, then why bother? Is our approach to mind manip vs soul manip based purely on word choice? Be straight with me here.

 

[Jaakubb]

What Anto and DDM said, the Composer is consistently stated to affect one's mind, not soul.

Why can't it do both? The mind is part of the soul after all. Where is it stated that the composer affects only the mind? I'm going to need a quote or two as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Definitions do matter, but not some local dictionary or dictionary.com. Some more elaborate sources are more reliable. "Essence" has multiple definitions; and not all of them equate to a soul. In fact, one definition for essence is one's heart or feelings; which once again doesn't equate to the astral plane of a soul.

The debate comes from multiple stuff; Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are different abilities for different reasons. Mind and Soul are completely separate from each other and shouldn't be mixed up.

 

[KarmodF]

Why can't it do both? The mind is part of the soul after all. Where is it stated that the composer affects only the mind? I'm going to need a quote or two as well.

Because most of the statements refer them as such and not soul, both mind and soul have similar characteristics, but the Composer have never stated to affect souls, only minds.

 

[Jaakubb]

Definitions do matter, but not some local dictionary or dictionary.com. Some more elaborate sources are more reliable. "Essence" has multiple definitions; and not all of them equate to a soul. In fact, one definition for essence is one's heart or feelings; which once again doesn't equate to the astral plane of a soul.
The debate comes from multiple stuff; Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are different abilities for different reasons.

I am not using typical dictionary definitions. It's just that in the context of halo specifically, an "essence" is an immaterial manifestation of consciousness and life. I am not using the dictionary definition of essence, I am using the dictionary definition of "soul." Is there a better definition for "soul" that you can find on a "more elaborate source"? Of course soul manip and mind manip are different, but for reasons other than this.