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Man I would rather upgrade Shadow Queen.
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Cooking like Saffron! A Super Yummy Paper Mario CRT!
- Thread starter Mephistus
- Start date
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Those would indirectly be 2-B (Soon to be 2-A) feats for the base main cast, but they'd also be outliers.
But anyway, Super Dimentio with the Chaos Heart is outright the one amplifying the power of the Void, not the other way around. So he upscales from the Void. He also literally shakes the multiverse just by existing and was destined to recreate the multiverse after devouring it. Hence reason for Void scaling to physical stats. Pure Hearts are stated to be the Chaos Heart's equal and amplifies the party to harm Count Bleck and later Super Dimentio; so it's just the 2-B/2-A scaling in a nut shell.
Mephistus
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Nice! Finally got some replies. I will respond later today in depth to feedback/questions since linking stuff on phone is a pain. I disagree with some stuff brought up mainly about the pure hearts chaos heart not begetting a proportional boost in physical statistics.
Should be fine with o apply the unanimous part for the Void power null given 2 mods and zero disagreement thus far since this continuation thread startedI do think that applying the (main) Voids sped to be infinite for attack speed would be fine; as per suggestion; might need another mod for that, was planning on doing that anyway since I still want to scale the main void above what the other mini Voids can do based on feats.
Should be fine with o apply the unanimous part for the Void power null given 2 mods and zero disagreement thus far since this continuation thread startedI do think that applying the (main) Voids sped to be infinite for attack speed would be fine; as per suggestion; might need another mod for that, was planning on doing that anyway since I still want to scale the main void above what the other mini Voids can do based on feats.
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I don't remember that
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I'd make Count Bleck's and Super Dimentio's tier "Island level, Multiverse level+ Environmental Destruction via The Void," since I don't think their regular attacks use The Void's full power.
He doesn't shake the multiverse by existing. The Void does. As for recreating the multiverse, that would fall into the same Environmental Destruction thing as The Void does.
You could still argue that the Pure Hearts don't amplify the party and instead just break the villains' defenses. Which is what I'm doing.
Wait, two mods? As far as I can tell, only DarkDragonMedeus explicitly agreed with this.
Here's Marilyn doing it.
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We already been over this so many times. I strongly disagree, Count Bleck and Super Dimentio are both physically amped by the Chaos Heart which the Void is simply a fraction of the Chaos Heart's power. Even the barrier that makes them so durable is clearly upscaled from the Void's AP. They even both have Low 2-C durability feats outside of being amped by Chaos Heart that there are plans to add back iirc.
But he shakes it harder when he becomes Super Dimentio. Recreating the multiverse is still the same UES as the Void's destruction + the same UES that amps durability. And surviving the destruction is also doubled as a durability feat.
That would contradict the "Equal power" statements. Invulnerability hax requires a lot more assumptions than just raw durability scaling. We have been over this too and our Invulnerability page outright states to never assume Invulnerability hax as opposed to raw durability without detailed evidence. We cannot make an exception just to single out a verse.
Just for adding the simple abilities, he acknowledges the big stat upgrades requires more discussion.
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Of course, I agree with this specific part, since I'm the one who wrote it. I could've gave the following clarifications sooner if you had notified me of this thread. Thanks for using me as inspiration though.
Really indeed. Dimentio using the word "host" when having called Luigi "the ideal host for the power of the Chaos Heart" meant the Chaos Heart's power was like a parasite within Luigi, with the two having a symbiotic relationship, so Dimentio didn't mean that he would use the Void as a separate entity from himself directly against the heroes at that time. Dimentio saying "and now I'm going to add my own power to this spicy little concoction" means he was cooking up something devious concerning power, where the ingredients were the Chaos Heart, Luigi and himself, with the thing devious in question being a super form that was relevant to the immediate battle. Dimentio repeatedly using the word "power" in the circumstances goes to show its relevance.
Here's one that I forgot to mention previously. When relishing his invincibility, Dimentio said to the heroes: "And now it is time for the destruction to begin... Let it begin with you, as you wallow in helplessness like upside-down turtles!" The "destruction" in question would've ended up being of the multiverse, and Dimentio intended for it to begin with the heroes. This alone wouldn't necessarily mean he was using the multiversal destruction power of the Void for physical attacks, but it obviously demonstrates a connection and proves that Dimentio had his destructive capabilities in mind when talking about his "spicy little concoction." With the other aforementioned evidence, I'm led to the conclusion that Dimentio was harnessing the Chaos Heart for the purpose of physical attacks during his final battle.
Dimentio said "power" instead of "protection," and he had reacted to losing invincibility in the cutscene where it happened in, so it would've been redundant for him to have been referring to that again at the time of losing a battle where the whole theme was that he was using a legendary artifact of mass destruction within a super form concoction designed to be powerful. The word "power" has a straightforward meaning in this case, rather than being short for "superpower of invincibility."
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Aside from the part I wrote, since I already mentioned it, I still mostly agree, but I want to clarify some things.
Keep in mind that Super Dimentio's immense strength was a lot greater than Count Bleck's usage of the Chaos Heart due to the former having the additional attributes of using Luigi to be the best host for the power and of having Dimentio's extra power that was portrayed as significant somehow. This implies that Count Bleck's usage of the Chaos Heart was imperfect and inferior to that of Super Dimentio.
The scaling more so simply stems from how the Void was an interdimensional singularity that was very strong due to growing and pulling on a multiversal scale, which would've ended up doing so to an infinite amount of space. This easily indicates that any character who scales to the Void has immeasurable lifting strength, because the Void's absorption was a straightforward display of such lifting strength, with the attack potency just being a product of that even though we're more familiar with it. However, the Void would've absorbed and took down infinite distance over a long period of finite time, so I think "up to Infinite over time" would be a more appropriate speed ranking. It isn't even characteristic of the Void to have immediate access to this level of movement, so it doesn't make sense to treat the characters as having it.
I disagree with this extra point. A character being intelligent doesn't mean they don't use figurative language nor have emotional beliefs, and "love is infinite" can easily be a hyperbole, regardless of how the literal meaning makes sense in the overall context. This is nothing more than supporting evidence at best, since without the other evidence, it would probably be worth little.
I haven't checked this, but it looks believable. Additionally, the characters empowered by the Pure Hearts were able to stun Super Dimentio for a moment by doing damage, like with most enemies, which counts as being in the same league of lifting strength, since Super Dimentio was obviously trying to not get delayed and hurt, so he could defeat the heroes.
There's no evidence that this was achieved by super speed in particular rather than other means.
In alignment with my assessment that Count Bleck is only capable of achieving "up to Infinite over time" when amplified by the Chaos Heart, characters who are empowered by the Pure Hearts can't simply scale to the top speed, since Count Bleck never used it in combat. However, I'd agree with the idea that the Pure Hearts could achieve the same "up to Infinite over time" due to being the positive counters to the Chaos Heart, since it would make sense for them to be capable of having the same reach with their purity as the Chaos Heart does with its destruction.
I agree with this.
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It... seems okay, I suppose. There's better evidence for sure.
What's your vote?
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The "physically amped" thing is what we're arguing about, but, even if it did unarguably happen, and even if The Void were a fraction of the Chaos Heart's power (which I don't think is actually stated anywhere), who's to say the power boost also isn't?
Super Dimentio's thing probably is, since he'd survive The Void to remake the multiverse, but is Count Bleck's barrier?
The Void does, which says nothing about Super Dimentio's physical strength.
Actually, when is it stated that the Pure Hearts are equal in power to the Chaos Heart? I know they're stated to have been made to defeat the Chaos Heart, but that could be accomplished with hax, and not necessarily by boosting the heroes' strength.
That's not what I'm arguing. To clarify, by "breaking the villains' defenses," I mean nullifying what makes them "invincible," i.e. Count Bleck's Forcefield Creation and Super Dimentio's Forcefield Creation/Statistics Amplification.
Yeah, but who's the second mod?
Could you reexplain the argument, please? I think I misunderstood which line Mephistus was referring to.
I think that's just an interpretation thing, since I can absolutely see "power" meaning "superpower of invincibility" in this context, since I see the first reaction as surprise, and the second one as disbelief.
Here's footage.
Or, the characters were able to stun Super Dimentio depowered by the Pure Hearts for a moment by doing damage.
I would personally take the same approach to speed as I do to attack potency ("Massively FTL+, up to Infinite attack speed over time via The Void"). The Pure Hearts thing seems believable.
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Okay, but this is kind of redundant...
Whoever scales to the Void has immeasurable lifting strength because the Void being dangerous stemmed from it pulling in entire dimensions and space-time continuums. Even though we're more familiar with characters scaling to its attack potency, its attack potency is simply a product of its lifting strength.
When Dimentio creates his ultimate form using Luigi and the Chaos Heart, his dialogue before gameplay starts gives me the impression that he would use immense power, without relying on the Void as a separate entity from him, but including the Chaos Heart's power to destroy all realities. Dimentio repeatedly using the word "power" in the following circumstances goes to show its relevance.
- After fusing the Chaos Heart and Luigi, Dimentio said: "The Dark Prognosticus says he's the ideal host for the power of the Chaos Heart." The usage of the word "host" in this context was meant in the sense that the Chaos Heart's power was like a parasite within Luigi, with the two having a symbiotic relationship, so Dimentio didn't mean that he would use the Void as a separate entity from himself directly against the heroes at that time.
- Dimentio proceeded by saying: "And now I'm going to add my own power to this spicy little concoction." This indicates that he was cooking up something devious concerning power. The ingredients were the Chaos Heart, Luigi and himself, with the thing devious in question being a super form that was relevant to the immediate battle.
- During the cutscene where we were about to be shown what Count Bleck and the others were doing in Dimension D, when Dimentio was relishing how he was invincible, he said to the heroes: "And now it is time for the destruction to begin... Let it begin with you, as you wallow in helplessness like upside-down turtles!" The "destruction" in question would've ended up being of the multiverse, and Dimentio intended for it to begin with the heroes right then and there. This alone wouldn't necessarily mean Dimentio was using the multiversal destruction power of the Void for physical attacks, but it obviously demonstrates a connection and proves that Dimentio had his destructive capabilities in mind when talking about the "spicy little concoction" he was using.
- I would list here the point you addressed in the next quote if that wouldn't be extra redundant.
That can also make sense, so this leads us to the question of which interpretation we will use. If my aforementioned re-explanation has convinced you, then that'd make things simple. This one point is really just a part of that explanation, so that explanation's overall process and conclusion should be what we focus on. If you disagree with all those interpretations from the explanation, then a "likely" ranking can be suitable instead, since we know the semantics can be ambiguous.
Thanks, that's even better than how I imagined it.
This situation is the same as last time. Whichever interpretation is the correct one depends on the semantics of Tippi saying: "Now's our chance... The Pure Hearts have given us power! Let's get him!" She might have been referring to a strength boost or the heal when using the word "power." My own stance is that I would prioritize the interpretation that strength was gained in this case, since the word "power" in a battle tends to refer to taking action rather than something for protection like health points.
Our ideas about this are very similar, and I would prefer mine, but I'd be fine with yours too.
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I was asked to comment here, but I don't know much about paper Mario, so I'll be going off what I read.
But on the other hand, if you can provide evidence that they couldn't restrain Count Bleck physically, without the Pure Hearts, and then could once be amped by the Pure Hearts, I suppose that could be evidence that they're being physically enhanced, and since the Pure Hearts power is infinite, I can see how the enhancement would be as well.
This sounds like it could be either an infinite range feat or an attack speed feat via the Void. I don't really see the evidence of how the Void would scale to their physical abilities.
The first scan says that it amplifies one's energy and that the power of the Pure Hearts is infinite, as such no force can defeat it. So my initial thought process is that there's no real mention of their physical abilities being amped, and unless Count Bleck is infinitely large, or already has infinite lifting strength, then them holding him down wouldn't mean much.
But on the other hand, if you can provide evidence that they couldn't restrain Count Bleck physically, without the Pure Hearts, and then could once be amped by the Pure Hearts, I suppose that could be evidence that they're being physically enhanced, and since the Pure Hearts power is infinite, I can see how the enhancement would be as well.
Eh, I'm iffy about this. There's no proof he searched every world. Plenty of characters in media say they "Searched everywhere" and couldn't find someone or something when they didn't really. Then again there may be some context I'm missing.
Sure, makes sense.
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I'm propose infinite attack speed via Void as it can comsume all dimensions and worlds.
About the dream depot. I believe it can be affect by the void as it also destroy timelines
That might include dreams and worlds
Edit: infinite speed or faster then light speed for Mario as he and others are able to dodge the destruction caused by the void where they somehow dodge it even though theres no exit.
About the dream depot. I believe it can be affect by the void as it also destroy timelines
That might include dreams and worlds
Edit: infinite speed or faster then light speed for Mario as he and others are able to dodge the destruction caused by the void where they somehow dodge it even though theres no exit.
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Do any of these works?
Mephistus
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Still working on a response since I got ahold of the three japanese official licensed guidebooks for Super paper Mario which give some more context on some objections.
@Luckyfun I think the voids attack speed should be infinite at any rate; the heroes technically were "ejected" from the sammer dimension according to the Nintendo power or prima guide though; so I don't believe they reacted or really dodged with teleporting in that instance
@Luckyfun I think the voids attack speed should be infinite at any rate; the heroes technically were "ejected" from the sammer dimension according to the Nintendo power or prima guide though; so I don't believe they reacted or really dodged with teleporting in that instance
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I think we should save that for another thread.
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Tbh I'm just waiting for Meph with those guidebooks cause that's honestly big for SPM stuff.
Mephistus
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I'll post my findings tonight
I removed some parts to my counter arguments since English localizations took some liberties and I had to pass it by some people who speak Japanese fluently for peer review. Merlumina Merlon and Bonechill have some important dialogue differences.
I removed some parts to my counter arguments since English localizations took some liberties and I had to pass it by some people who speak Japanese fluently for peer review. Merlumina Merlon and Bonechill have some important dialogue differences.
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Uh, it's been like a couple days now are you able to post them?
Mephistus
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The vortex would be reaching an infinite speed over finite time for the range to get eventually affected, Merlon / Yold Town habitants dictate in the localizations that the events of the game happen in the span of "days", even stating there is real urgency in the Void being prevented.
Section A. The evidence supporting that the Void would be equal to their AP/physical abilities post amped states has multiple avenues to come to that conclusion:
- The Void is compared to the Pure Hearts in a scale of power/strength ("力" / "Chikara" used in the JP raws for the infinite quote) to consume the world(s) with the aforementioned quote applies to how the Ancients phrase its power of scale ("And THAT is why we hope the Purity Heart will have the power to defeat chaos.") with them being knowledgeable about creating something in response to fight against 2-A AP in Merlumina's own words. That they would be describing the Pure Hearts in a scale of magnitude there about not being defeated to have comparable potency and (knowing about the prophetic writings about the power that would be destroying the world) discrediting the Pure Heart being a hax or counter force / kryptonite to the threat.
- The Void is sustained physically to grow to cover the infinite worlds by the power source, the Chaos Heart, in a lot of sources from the guides to the game. It quite literally is existing as a raw form of "[a cluster of black] energy" and referenced as a "power" rather than just a McGuffin that creates supernatural effects ergo a magic fortune cookie that pulls and makes energy out of nowhere to make an explosion happen, or a tornado when you read its fortune.
- The Chaos Heart is visibly destroyed on-screen by the Pure Hearts / Purity Heart at the end (with the Prima Guide explaining it was "snuffed out of existence" and "where it shall die"), which is another part of the evidence requested in the thread that they do actually possess a comparable level of power to fully cancel each other out along with the Ancients calculated prevention in accordance with knowing what the Dark Prognosticus says. (There is a page from the JP guide here that I was wanting to get translated talking about the Chaos Heart getting destroyed, but it seems redundant atm since the cutscene visuals are satisfactory)
- Bonechill states that no one will be able to "stop him" once he gets the Pure Hearts the heroes delivered to him (& interfere with him ruling the world in the Japanese version), with the rephrased context given by the other official localizations (English & French for examples) of stopping him being him saying that he will become "invincible", supporting that there is an application of the Pure Heart's power happening to the wielder to prevent them from fatal harm and thus defeat, rather than the reliance on the Pure Hearts acting as a "gun that can shatter strong barriers, surrounding enemies in a limited area and hitting them with a powerful blast of energy" while the wielder of the Pure Heart's themselves are reliant on their enemies not overcoming their innate durability, within the context of this kid friendly game you kill him and break him to pieces to "stop him".
- The heroes are directly shown to be bathed individually in a golden white light energy when the Pure Hearts show up for Bleck and blast the barrier; there is more going on than just the Pure Hearts acting as an external weapon, for that you can contrast to the scene when the Pure Hearts are made by Bleck and his minions, with them notably not being surrounded by that glowey energy on their bodies and rather just Bleck's clothes and body being slightly repaired without any glowey effect presented, while he is still left mortally wounded and about to die, with him saying he doesn't have long to live anyway, prior to him and Tippi doing a sacrifice and being healed, along with Tippi being changed back to her human form.
- The heroes notably don't need to be healed by the Pure Hearts between the sequence for it to proceed the same and still get a corresponding quote from Tippi saying that the Pure Hearts have granted "us" power. (Which also leads into the point 4 I want to make with it indicating this amp affected Tippi and the Pixls since Tippi actually uses "us") So it's some real funny business going on if they don't receive any provable healing on their person, yet Tippi indicates that the power is affecting them and was at all necessary for them to attack, shown by the spontaneous heal if they are missing HP points.
- Bleck is able to be restrained by Thoreau / Mario after the shield is out of the picture, as someone already linked for more direct evidence of a Pure Heart amp. One of the indicators the heroes and Pixls got amped is that you can bypass his shield and grab onto his body before the Pure Hearts appear, as like what you can do against a Sobarribad and completely ignore the forcefield barrier they make to grab the inside target, and yet even while being able to go behind the shield the Chaos Heart makes, any attempt to pull him to you is ignored, showing he acts physically amped to be stronger than their bases.
- Bleck being able to traverse and search infinite worlds would correspond to the other stat amp evidence since he's apparently able to move at infinity speed in base, unless we want infinite base speed Mario.... I don't think it contradicts a narrative point for him to be able to move that fast when even using teleportation to supplement, he'd be actively searching and reacting. I'd like to actually hear (anyone thus far specify) what other means is being suggested for Bleck to "search" worlds other than super speed, so we can actually have a discourse? Like, what supports he did something that wouldn't be non-physical supported in verse, like future sight or fortunetelling? As I'm speaking broadly here, maybe you might have issue with that as well. There is also the (rumor) tale told from Carson about Nastasia being found along Bleck's physical travels to the realms, with her swearing eternal loyalty, portraying he actually is going into the worlds to search.
- This leads into the scaling pretty deep and is difficult to separate as a point from Section A No. 2 about the Chaos Heart being an existence of just "energy" (or "power" as the English puts it) since Super Dimentio exists as an optimal fusion and creation of the entire energy and Luigi's body in order to create a powerful concoction (as James_Plays_4_Games is supporting; Dimentio is referencing the concoction he was cooking, not the extension of the power of the Chaos Heart supporting the Void there as the subject of attention). The Chaos Heart is supposed to continue its existence even after the Void is sustained to its peak and is used further to remake the multiverse over again for the shown wielder to be able to choose whether or not to remake it, showing the energy its supplying doesn't "run out" and make the Chaos Heart disappear from exhaustion for the comparison DarkDragonMedeus said about the entirety of the Void's physical ability only being a fraction of what the energy the Chaos Heart is releasing from itself. Count Bleck is also stated to have the power granted by the Chaos Heart for his attacks, being one of them is actually called a dimensional hole, despite the barrier being removed he still controls the power. He is stated to be one with it and upon defeating it we see it in unmerge with him. In a similar way, the whole power of the Chaos Heart was combined (in)to Luigi's body to be ("'Super Dimentio 'Dimentio, who has taken the Love Power of Chaos and the body of Luigi into himself...") applied offensively ("It combines an incredible offensive power and body..."), as a result of the complete merge we can rely on visuals to see his body & the Chaos Heart be transformed and created into a massive bulk by that potent energy, with both initial items fading into a dimensional hole prior to the new body parts emerging with it being informally commented by Dimentio that the "power of the Chaos Heart" was applied just in the creation of his body since we had yet to have the charged effect/barrier made on him.
- Super Dimentio has a scripted move he does after at least a minute of in-game fighting to summon Pal-Pill guys to attack (both the guides specify the timeframe, but let's just round to a minute for the minimum) after you get the Pure Hearts again. Let's steelman that the opposing argument is actually right on that Super Dimentio is around tier 6 now statwise just because, and only has 2-A environmental destruction. By all accounts, he's had a minute of a drawn-out battle to realize he's getting hurt by tier 6 attacks and yet he's believing he's fated to be "swallowed along with "everything" by the Void which is recorded by the prophetic book and that he's fighting inside the castle that is actively being destroyed and consumed in the heart of the Void. He only accepts he's lost when he's reduced down to a head, to infer that the prophecy was prevented, and he had lost at that specific time, rather than the moment that the Pure Hearts were used and his barrier was removed. I have a hard time seeing how it's the case that he's not confidence scaling to his own environmental destruction with how it plays out. The direct scaling is the UES, since dissenters should absolutely, at worst agree here that the barriers that the Chaos Heart can churn out in succession (one was made for Dimentio right after Bleck had his fight) should upscale to the Void's attack potency, since like Dimentio states, Bleck planned on just leaving everything as erased, being as he would get swallowed as well, Bleck still has a choice in the matter in keeping it that way.
The context with the way worlds are treated in the game's lore is that they use the term to talk of an infinite universe visited through one of the dimensional doors being its own world in first person narrative in one of the official Japanese guide's, along with the other worlds are commented on, along with the dimension that Mario hails from being its own world, which even Dimentio calls where they came from as a world in reference, in the larger scope of every "world" making up the "World" is threatened by the Void within the specification of the English translation for the very threat of "all existence". The way we treat Subcons in Marioverse as individual, tangible dimensions that are universes for the cosmology doesn't limit the Ancients and their descendants dimensional traversing ability to going there when "flipping", Dreambert's species could travel between tangible dream realms with what appears as teleportation, rather than dream portals being an absolute necessity to get there, so I doubt that it's not possible for Bleck to get to those places given the circumstances. Bleck is shown on-screen to travel to Sammer's Kingdom dimension, the Mushroom Kingdom by dimensionally flipping, so going to other dimensions was never a problem for him. We also know that descendants of the Ancients, such as Old Man Watchitt was able to dream and the whole subplot of Merlumina haunting his dreams is intact in the Jp version, so dreams as a concept is not foreign to them.
Bleck is also specific in saying that he never gave up looking with respect to what his revenge is on for his grief, which is all worlds that took his lover away. I suppose that the usual alternatives to his statements is he's lying or he's uninformed. Why is he suddenly making up that no world holds his lover, and if he wasn't confident about the statement, he makes a concrete evaluation "to be sure"?
Like for an analogy here; You have to set off a bomb to blow up a city but, your best friend is in one of the buildings in the city.
If you get to search the city, state you never gave up searching, state that you are sure your friend isn't in any of the buildings, it justifies that you are blowing it up without caring about harming your friend. Its pushing a conclusion that Bleck choose for a place to stop searching with more worlds left to explore which isn't supported by his own words, with one of the very worlds visited during the game actually stated to have infinite space to explore.
I'd take the opposing argument as lending to the conclusion of him willfully destroying his lover if the end goal is destruction of all existence, without at least going to look inside each universe/world. Nothing more I can give to go off visually other than it done off-screen for context i can add besides my extensive thoughts on the quotes for it being a prelude feat to all the game scenes.
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I appreciate the effort, but I feel like the matter is as simple as the summary I had written in post number 52, so I'm honestly not motivated to read all of what you wrote. Anyway, what you gathered seems valuable and should be saved for easy access.
Mephistus
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Bump.
Also along with the text wall (hopefully) getting responded to, here's another new supporting point about Bonechill quotes and glowey heroes ; Section B, Points 1 & 2 for a supporting point on the Pure Hearts generally empowering their wielders for how Nolrem relates to the Pure Hearts being used in battle.
Also along with the text wall (hopefully) getting responded to, here's another new supporting point about Bonechill quotes and glowey heroes ; Section B, Points 1 & 2 for a supporting point on the Pure Hearts generally empowering their wielders for how Nolrem relates to the Pure Hearts being used in battle.
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Bump?
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