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Characters cannot reasonably be scaled to Javelins of Light (Fire Emblem: Three Houses)

The_Smashor

The_Smashor

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I created a blog on the topic, but I'll try to put everything here too.

Debunking the feats​

Now, let's look at the feats that let the cast of Three Houses scale to Javelins of Light. Specifically, Rhea destroying/overpowering and surviving a Javelin of Light.

For the first one, it simply makes zero sense. Rhea at no point counters the Javelin of Light explosions. Meanwhile, the physical casings of the bombs obviously wouldn't scale to the payload, because the entire point is the casings do not contain the explosions, otherwise there wouldn't be an explosion at all.

As for surviving the explosions, there's something more important I'll bring up later, but for now, Rhea clearly didn't survive the entirety of the explosion, as she was near the outskirts.

Not to mention, Rhea was greatly damaged by this, almost dying. While Rhea was weakened at the time, that dosn't magically mean Rhea scales to the full yield of the blast. Not to mention...

The Javelin that Rhea survived was not as strong as the High 7-A ones​

Now, I have brought up this before, but the point is the Javelins of Light are clearly tools made with destruction in mind, and the explosions we see from the Javelins dropped (Like the ones Rhea survives) don't cause anywhere near the amount of destruction required to be High 7-A. As seen here, one Javelin only destroys the roof of the area the characters were in, we don't even see the explosion. Hell, the roof is mostly fine, it crumbles to the ground instead of being totally atomized like an actual High 7-A explosion condensed into such a small area would do.

Debunking "It scales because it's magic"​

This is an argument I've seen often. "The Javelins of Light with smaller explosions scale to the Javelins with bigger explosions because they're magic". However, this makes very little sense.

Fire Emblem's Magic System​

Now, Magic in Fire Emblem varies depending on a number of things. The most obvious is the individual spell. For example, some wind spells are stronger than other wind spells. It also varies on how powerful the caster is. Someone with more skill or better natural talent will be doing more damage than someone without, obviously. Even when using the exact same spell, or using a spell for the exact same effect, there will be variants in power.

There's no reason to assume that the Javelins of Light are any different. Assuming that different Javelins have the exact same power despite having different sized explosions is frankly unreasonable. There is no proof.

Characters not scaling to Javelins is more consistent​

In this scene, The Death Knight says "Leave now or all of you will die." Not "Most of you will die except Byleth because he's really strong". Not to mention, when he realized the Javelin was coming, Jeritza instantly started running and suggested even his enemies do the same.

Fighting Byleth is Jeritza's main motivation. If Jeritza believed at all that he and Byleth could survive the Javelin of Light, he wouldn't even remotely care what happens to everyone else. Jeritza fully believed that, despite being on the outskirts of the city, the Javelins of Light would kill both him and Byleth, despite him and Byleth both alledgedly scaling to the Javelins of Light.

Jeriza is a very analytical fighter, he'd probably know if he could survive something like that. Considering even mages in training can conjure Town level meteors and explosions and lots of soldiers can survive that, and barrels of explosives are commonly used in Three Houses as seen with battalions, I seriously doubt Jeritza just thinks he can't survive explosions.

Characters also universally consider Javelins of Light to be massive threats no matter how strong they are. The people of Fodlan, who once again are used to tier 7 explosions being used in warfare, consider the effects of Javelins of Light to be nothing less than an act of the Goddess.

Conclusion​

There is not nearly enough evidence for the main cast scaling to Javelins of Light, and lots of evidence they outright don't. The only thing keeping the logic of the cast scaling together is the idea that the Javelins should be comparable to each other, which is completely unsupported by the verse's magic system.
 
If something in the OP is demonstrably wrong, I'm going to point it out.
She's like what, a dozen meters away? It explodes and engulfs the entire POV so she's far closer to the epicenter then she is to the outskirts so either way.

And yes, it does matter, greatly even, because even if whatever you're trying to say gets accepted or even rejected, this can serve to help find another tier placement, which is something your OP lacks, you aren't giving any proposals or alternatives.
 
Honestly, the closest thing I can think of is the statement that Thunderbrand could split a mountain in half. I've seen similar feats calced anywhere from Town to Mountain level, though a generic mountain splitting calc on FC/OC got to Low 7-B.
 
Yeah. While the mountain splitting can be argued to be hyperbole or something since it's a legend, there's no real reason for the Church to say the Hero's Relics are stronger than they are.
 
Given like, 99% of legends in the game are either true, or at least based in truth minus the big one which Rhea purposely lied and hid, idk I'd say it's worth noting. Especially given they end up getting the blade and nobody goes "oh wow the legend was full of shit".

Firstly, we'd need to find how big mountains are in the game itself, we see enough of them, we could probably find an average, alternatively we could just grab an average mountain height based off irl values but that's more of a back up in case the former isn't possible.
Secondly we'd need a width of the cut, a minimum I'd assume would be the width of the weapon itself. But that also depends on if it gets a larger area of effect when it actually attacks, given a few do indeed do that, in which case we'd use that as the width.
 
Not to mention, for reasons I mentioned earlier, those Javelins probably wouldn't scale to the High 7-A calc.
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
Rhea doesn't "eat two of them in the face" she barely gets engulfed by the explosion at the end of the cutscene and nearly dies
Click to expand...
barely
Click to expand...
But she actually does tho, even if everything else is right, this part at the very least isn't true, they expand and completely engulf her, with the explosions expanding past the POV, she's closer to the center then she is the edge of it even if we assume the blast stopped exactly at the POV.
8HM5Tgd.gif

Surface area, cross sectional area, etc is a thing sure, but she IS closer to the center then she is the edge, even if she isn't point blank.
 
Sure, she's fully engulfed for a moment, yes

It's still a lie to say she "tanked" it when she's left almost dead and there are concerns of her possibly dying as a result
 
a moment
Click to expand...
At least a few seconds, probably more given the cut away past Byleth.
I never said she tanked em, nor did I ever say they scale to her fully if at all, but I am saying she was completely engulfed and is closer to the center then the edge, because she was, I could even angsize it to get an approximate distance if needed 🤷‍♂️
It may not be 100% crucial or the main argument, but it be like it do, I wanna be accurate here, not leave out or mix up some details.
 
Also, about the roof coming down, we should also keep in mind that Shambhala was being damaged already during the battle

Thales: Viskam has been activated? Increase output gradually, depending on the amount of magical energy charged. I don't care if we destroy Shambhala, as long as our goals are fulfilled!

The ceiling was shattered as a result of this, not the Javelins of Light, as the Javelins don't actually start dropping until after the roof collapses
 
tbh in regards to the roof, I wouldn't say that's for or against anything really, it's kinda vague, it's a super high tech sci-fi building, **** if we know how durable it is.
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
The ceiling was shattered as a result of this, not the Javelins of Light, as the Javelins don't actually start dropping until after the roof collapses
Click to expand...
What? We see a javelin hit the ground, and it immediately cuts to the roof caving in.
At the very least javelins were dropped before the collapse, but given how the scene plays out, I'd say it's due to the javelin hitting the ground as to why it caved in to begin with.
ybn6amT.gif
 
Anyway, if anyone wants to supply me with some scans, I could probably calc the mountain split. I'd dig through the game for scans myself but I'm working on four other CRT's already and going through the whole game would take like a solid day or two straight 🤷‍♂️
But I can at least help out a bit here if people supply the other shit.
 
There isn't a mountain split, there's just a statement that the Sword of the Creator could split a mountain

But I suppose you could make an assumption on whatever mountains you can find, like was said earlier
 
I know we've been over this a bunch of times over and over again, but I might as well repeat the basic ideas.

First of all, she's still relatively close the the Javelins with they explode. Which inverse square law should still warrant some good Tier 7 feats. No lower than 7-B regardless of whether the High 7-A to High 6-C is used. Also, she's been in captivity for 5 years and is literally very sick. If someone had to push an entire truck while holding back the Flu but noted they passed out from exhaustion later. I'd still image them being able to do the same thing with ease if they were fully healthy. And I'll address the tiers later. And as Chariot noted above, the head of the Javelins was just right at her mouth when it detonated.

There's no proof the Javelins of Light vary in tier. No one knows what they're made of and they're no man made nukes of Hydrogen gas or Plutonium like real world nukes are. They're magically enhanced Javelins. Area of effect fallacy could be used for real world nukes since they were never meant to break the laws of physics, but Magic and Ki blasts do not always follow traditional laws of physics meaning AoE fallacy. And even if we want to assume that doesn't make sense, I also forgot to mention this, but Fire Emblem Three Houses has its own version of Adamantium like metals in the form of Mythril and Agarthium. The latter is also the same type of metal Edelgard's Aymr as well as Devil weapons are. So that's all the more reason to consider smaller explosions are just AoE fallacy rather than "Maybe the nukes simply aren't that strong".

Again, no one is using a generic "It's magic". Actually the potency of magic depends on the caster. The animation we see is merely a benchmark, for example. The Town level calc magic tome scales from is something that would still be Town level even if casted by a level one mage. And thus that's just how strong the Tome itself is; meaning most castors are actually much stronger. Since they can influence it to be much higher. In fact, a high level sage casting a regular fire tome is much stronger than a fodder mage using Meteor; thus Town level or higher. However, there is no proof cast use Magic tomes to summon Javelins; and even if they did the caster would still be the tier of one outright by that logic. They're basically just stationed in orbit and summoned by an unknown method. But in this case, we see Thales use his own powers to summon the Javelins of Light in which he used the 4 remaining ones in existence.

As for assumptions on we do not know how many were used or when they're made. They're all stated to be very ancient as they were made by the Agarthans; meaning they probably never did make any more than what was crafted by the time they were first brought into existence. But assuming that not all Javelins are equal in power is even more assumptive than considering they are. Because at the end of the day, they were all made with the same purpose and pretty much at the same time. Which was to cause as much destruction as possible. Also, it only took 2 to destroy Fort Merceus, which was stated to be one of the most durable strongholds in existence. Wouldn't be surprised if their walls were made of Mythril and the like but I digress. Still, there's also the Ailell feat. Which a hermit character actually confirms that the destruction actually did happen; though she believes it was "Thanks to the Goddess" that Garreg Mach Monastery was safe implying someone repelled them and redirected them to another location.

Finally, as for the scaling, or "She didn't actually tank them" or "She was eventually killed by it". All of this depends on the playthrough and what was decided among the routes. First of all, we did address that was a weakened version of Rhea/Immaculate One. Who is much weaker than when she's fought as the final boss of Crimson Flower or Silver Snow; especially the latter which I'm going to explain later. Also, this incident happens in two routes; Verdant Wind and Silver Snow. Which she did not die at all in the latter version from the Javelins of Light alone. In fact, all it pretty much did in the end was made her stronger albiet not in a good way. It made her go insane but they actually made her physically stronger given she reached her Berserk Immaculate One stage. And Seteth was very afraid she would "Destroy all of Fodlan" which was also something he never said about the Javelins of Light. This can be hint one that she's superior to the Javelins of anything. Also, about her "Dying" in the end of Silver Snow. Actually it's only implied she dies later on, but if you have an S rank support with Rhea, she actually lives if she is the one chosen as your lover.

Now it is true that sick Rhea was knocked out by two of them, but she was able to stand up to at least one of them even while ill as a recap. Her Berserk form is implied to be much stronger and arguably more dangerous than the Javelin. But I will say I agree with one part of the downgrades. The High Mid tiers have no reason to be scaled from the low end Javelins of Light and even lowballing that "All Heroes' relics should be half as strong as the Sword of the Creator" and it's being scaled from the 7-A low end and not the High 6-C end. That's the part that needs to go tbh. I honestly wouldn't mind pre-timeskip Byleth or three lords receiving downgrades and all the Non lord students and demonic Beasts accordingly. But I highly doubt Immaculate One, Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, Nemesis, or Aelfric are losing high end ratings.

I might have more later, but this is the gist of it for now.
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
There isn't a mountain split, there's just a statement that the Sword of the Creator could split a mountain
Click to expand...
I'm aware, but we can still calc it. Assuming the mountain in question is a standard mountain seen in the game, and the width of the cut is the width of the weapon itself while attacking, we can get a pretty solid approximation.
 
While I agree the JoL's can be inconsistent, I disagree for a few reasons.

1. Rhea was indeed in the blast, as it completely engulfed her. I kinda doubt results would be lowered by that much considering the fact that the one big blast is a combination of 2 JoLs.

2. Rhea, when she survived the JoLs was already in pretty bad shape after being imprisoned for over 5 years. Even after surviving the 2 JoLs, in SS, she is capable of still fighting on in her berserk form. She upscales while in prime condition for obvious reasons.

3. The Death Knight's point is kinda moot since he obviously doesn't know everything about the characters. Not to mention, Byleth fused with Sothis, who is heavily implied to have survived the country busting JoLs, since she awakened in Thinis, and Thinis was one of the countries mentioned to be "utterly destroyed".

4. I sincerely doubt the JoLs got THAT much weaker in a span of like what? 80 years? There is a hermit in Abyss that witnessed the very moment the JoL that created the valley of torment struck Garreg Mach so yea. It's more likely than not that the JoLs were just downplayed in the cutscenes or something. And about the JoLs power being controlled, there is one major flaw with this: Why would TWSITD want to weaken the JoLs? They want to kill off their enemies, not give them a chance to escape.
 
Rtxthegamer said:
Byleth fused with Sothis, who is heavily implied to have survived the country busting JoLs
Click to expand...
That was at her peak, before she needed to rest. As in Byleth wouldn't scale to that since Byleth outright only had a fraction of Sothis' already weakened power (Which is why she's a child in Byleth's head iirc)
DarkDragonMedeus said:
So that's all the more reason to consider smaller explosions are just AoE fallacy rather than "Maybe the nukes simply aren't that strong".
Click to expand...
Nukes don't just abruptly get smaller in blast radius. We don't assume that World War 2 carpet bombs are as strong as Nukes just because they're both bombs the USA has access to.

These are ultimately bombs. The default assumption is that they aren't stronger than their blast radius. It's on you to prove they're as strong as the ones that did the High 7-A+ feats, I cannot prove a negative.
 
That's a different analogy, Javelins of Light is a specific model of a weapon not both being javelins. Pretty sure if we made two or more Tsar Bombas at the time. one Tsar is just as strong as the other Tsar.

Also, it's possible for nukes to have smaller blast radius' if it's dealing with more barriers including but not limiting two other nukes colliding with each other.
 
The_Smashor said:
That was at her peak, before she needed to rest. As in Byleth wouldn't scale to that since Byleth outright only had a fraction of Sothis' already weakened power (Which is why she's a child in Byleth's head iirc)
Click to expand...
No, she actually found most if not all of her power again while stuck in Zaharas.
The_Smashor said:
Nukes don't just abruptly get smaller in blast radius. We don't assume that World War 2 carpet bombs are as strong as Nukes just because they're both bombs the USA has access to.
Click to expand...
False equivalency, since those two bombs are completely different bombs. We can't really say the same for the JoL, since, well they're the JoL.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, it's possible for nukes to have smaller blast radius' if it's dealing with more barriers including but not limiting two other nukes colliding with each other.
Click to expand...
Ok but this clearly isn't that.
Rtxthegamer said:
False equivalency, since those two bombs are completely different bombs. We can't really say the same for the JoL, since, well they're the JoL.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but we do clearly see that the explosions of these bombs are much smaller than the ones that created the canyon.

Another major difference, the valley of torment became an uninhabitable hellscape while there's no evidence of what remained of Shambala getting that, so it seems increasingly likely that those were weaker JoL. It is shown in some "Where are they now" text bits that Those Who Slither in the Dark still had some members after the fact, so it's not unreasonable to assume Thales was trying to destroy his enemy without killing his entire civilization.
 
Again, I find it more likely that they just downplayed the JoL for the sake of the cutscene, rather than the JoL getting like thousands of times weaker within a span of like, 80 years.

Regardless, the characters would still scale to Sothis-Fused Byleth, and Sothis was heavily implied to have survived the country-busting javelins. Not to mention there is a potentially 6-A/High 6-A feat from Sothis via her Ashunera-ing (on a lesser scale) the entire planet.
 
Maybe you didn't see my edit, but I explained some of that:
The_Smashor said:
Another major difference, the valley of torment became an uninhabitable hellscape while there's no evidence of what remained of Shambala getting that, so it seems increasingly likely that those were weaker JoL. It is shown in some "Where are they now" text bits that Those Who Slither in the Dark still had some members after the fact, so it's not unreasonable to assume Thales was trying to destroy his enemy without killing his entire civilization.
Click to expand...

Rtxthegamer said:
Regardless, the characters would still scale to Sothis-Fused Byleth, and Sothis was heavily implied to have survived the country-busting javelins. Not to mention there is a potentially 6-A/High 6-A feat from Sothis via her Ashunera-ing (on a lesser scale) the entire planet.
Click to expand...
Can you show me where it says she did that to the entire planet and not just Fodlan?
 
Rtxthegamer said:
Again, I find it more likely that they just downplayed the JoL for the sake of the cutscene, rather than the JoL getting like thousands of times weaker within a span of like, 80 years.

Regardless, the characters would still scale to Sothis-Fused Byleth, and Sothis was heavily implied to have survived the country-busting javelins. Not to mention there is a potentially 6-A/High 6-A feat from Sothis via her Ashunera-ing (on a lesser scale) the entire planet.
Click to expand...
High 6-A Byleth when?
 
The_Smashor said:
Can you show me where it says she did that to the entire planet and not just Fodlan?
Click to expand...
"In the land of Thinis, where the old gods are said to live, the False God has awakened. Its looming, heteromorphic vessel was resurrected to sink the world to the depths of the ocean"

"The children of men fled to the depths of the earth, beyond the sight of the False God, beyond the embrace of the sacred sun, and beyond the reach of the waters of Despair."

Despite the implications that Shambhala was built further inland, Shambhala is located VERY close to the coast as seen on the map, indicating that Sothis did indeed create a flood at some point.

And about that point of Thales not wanting to kill everyone in TWSITD, well I don't really think he cared at all, since he was willing to destroy Shambhala just to kill Byleth and Rhea.
 
Still, High 6-A Byleth feels more like a "Possibly" than a main tier, since it's massively above literally everything else in Three Houses. Sothis is considered to be the most powerful being in Three Houses. Not to mention, Sothis regaining all of her lost power dosn't necessarily mean Byleth is capable of using all of it, espesially since it makes very little sense for the characters not fused with a goddess to scale to it and still be threatened by, at the very most, High 6-C explosions.
 
Hence why Byleth would probably downscale from the feat if it were legit. Other characters would either upscale from Byleth or downscale from them.
 
Like, even downscaling dosn't make a lot of sense to me, considering Byleth needs help from Edelgard to defeat Rhea, who's objectively much weaker than Sothis.
 
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