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Characters cannot reasonably be scaled to Javelins of Light (Fire Emblem: Three Houses)

I just realized, we never actually find out if the Javelins are magic at all. Sure, magic is used to fire them, but we literally never get confirmation that the Javelins themselves are magic.
 
Can somebody explain what is left to do here currently please?
 
The_Smashor said:
Not really. There's no evidence people can control the blast radius of magic.
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There doesn't need to have every statement. That's still a Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency. Also, not every energy yield has to go to the blast radius; sometimes, it goes more as specific temperature, heat capacity, ect as opposed to it spreading out. There's also Earthquakes/shockwaves not just fireball radius to take into account during an explosion that hits the ground.
The_Smashor said:
Electricity dosn't focus on destruction anyways. They're different from explosions.
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Actually, DontTalkDT is actually going to bring up a lot of other facts about lightning at some point. It's actually possibly for lightning bolts to be very destructive just specific targets. Also, Tier 7 lightning bolts in fiction also actually are destructive in other areas; such as having a aforementioned shockwave that dispersed the very cloud that summoned it.
The_Smashor said:
OK. That's still more Kinetic Energy then actual destructive power. Explosions are not meteors.
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Kinetic Energy IRL actually would always have some effect; whether it be your fist sets on fire, a shockwave shakes the earth, ect. There would always be something if a Tier 7 meteor or punch hit the ground IRL. Also, meteors do either explode or cause an Earthquake IRL.
The_Smashor said:
Maybe, but even that's contradicted at every possible opportunity.
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I saw no contradictions, and "Other feats" aren't contradictions but just separate feats entirely. But the lore clearly states it became a volcanic wasteland due to a pillar of light, plain and simple.
The_Smashor said:
Not really. That's like saying a nuke is comparable to someone holding the metal used to make bombshells with gunpowder in their back pocket. Hell, Edelgard herself uses barrels of black powder explosives with her Gambit when using her default Battalion.

Also there's no evidence the Javelins are made of Agarhium.
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That is a false equivalency. IRL Bombshells and Nukes don't have their AP come from the metal plating. It comes from the chemicals storing the Potential energy (Chemical energy specifically in this case). And heating up or pressuring the bomb shells causes them to combust and all it's potential energy/chemical energy turns into kinetic energy/thermal energy. But the chemical energy isn't AP until it all ignites meaning no durability feat for the metallic plating of bomb shells and what not. Similar to how Gasoline has 32 MJ/L of chemical energy, and it all becomes thermal energy when ignited. But no durability from all that. However, none of this applies to Javelins of Light and here's why.

There is no proof that Nuclear technologies exist in Fire Emblem Three Houses universe. It's a medival fantasy setting, why would it be invented yet? Hydrogen bombs have their Megatons of AP come from the ionized hydrogen, and the nuclear fusion of multiple chemicals such as uranium, plutonium, deuterium, and tritium. None of which are known to be discovered let alone used to make Javelins of Light in Three Houses.

But Three Houses is different. Saying, "There's no proof that it's made of Argarthium" is a counter intuitive argument because there's no evidence of it being made of anything else period. But, if there's no evidence, then the only possibilities are things prevalent within the Fire Emblem Universe and/or made of something readably or most favored amongst the military that makes them in the 1st place. Agarthium is the most widely used metal among the Agarthians; they used to to craft Amyr and various Devil Swords and Devil Axes. They have no reason not to use it to make Javelins of Light then.
The_Smashor said:
I just realized, we never actually find out if the Javelins are magic at all. Sure, magic is used to fire them, but we literally never get confirmation that the Javelins themselves are magic.
Click to expand...
I already ruled out every other possibility. It's either magic, Agarthium, or a combination of both. They're super powered Javelins launched by magic and not nuclear weapons launched with the click of a button. Especially since the latter has no reason to be invented yet. Also, being launched by magic is actually still a hint that it is amped by magic. You do realize the range of warp staves and rescue staves is correlated to the attack potency of all magic tomes in which it's superior whenever the caster has a higher magic power rating yes?

We can't just say they aren't made of anything as that only just further implies it's a magic spell. And if it is made of some kind of material or element, Agarthium is the only thing it could be made of. Nuclear technologies aren't invented in Fire Emblem, and seems arbitrary to assume it's filled with black oil. And the color is the same as Amyr which is another hint of it being made of Agarthium. But regardless, but points still stand. It's either a supermetal, pure magic, or somewhere in between that uses a combination of both.
 
Also, a heads up, I'm a bit sick at the moment and had to call out of work today. So I can't respond too frequently atm.
 
Recap episode, since it's been awhile

Why the Javelins scale: The Immaculate One barely survived an explosion, The Immaculate One is the final boss of Silver Snow and Crimson Flower, thus scaling to Byleth, Edelgard, and anyone who so on scales to them

Rhea was weakened when she survived the blast

"There's also the fact that in the Silver Snow route, the Javelins don't actually kill Rhea. She later transforms into her true form which is much stronger than the sickened form."

Why the Javelins shouldn't scale:

Byleth is stated to NOT be able to survive a Javelin, which goes entirely against our current scaling that essentially says "Byleth = Rhea = 2 Javelins"

Rhea is left in a magical dragon coma (which Nabateans use to recover from otherwise fatal injuries) by the attack despite having what we consider to be multiple lives needed to be burned through before actually threatening her life and is implied to later die in Verdant Wind
 
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There's also the fact that in the Silver Snow route, the Javelins don't actually kill Rhea. She later transforms into her true form which is much stronger than the sickened form. I'd add that to the list for why they would scale.
 
I still don't think that the higher Javelins should be scaled to every Javelin we see. There's literally no proof of Dragon Ball-Esque Ki Control for Fire Emblem's magic to explain away the inconsistency with the explosion sizes, and the Javelins still were very clearly meant for destruction.

I just think making the Javelins of Light the only rankings for characters requires way too many assumptions.

I should also note that, aside from the Javelins, literally nothing but the Town level meteor feat even comes remotely close to any of the Javelin of Light feats, and even then the Meteor only comes close to the City level Javelin. Honestly, the higher Javelin feats could easily be an outlier, espesially since even the characters who allegedly scale to the Javelins can be heavily damaged or even killed by Meteor.

Hell, FTL Three Hoses might be an outlier too, since there's literally only one lightspeed feat that's technically offscreen, when the next highest speed feat is only Massively Hypersonic+ from dodging Bolting.
 
Not for those reasons, but I was planning on bringing up my own opinion on FTL in another thread

I also disagree with scaling the God tiers to Meteor, I do however, agree that Javelins shouldn't also be the only method of scaling anyone with a Crest, and that they should instead be unquantifiably higher rather than "idk how about one tenth of a javelin" which sounds like the most random, arbitrary number that has no basis
 
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It really doesn’t require that many assumptions. The only “assumption” it requires is that they’re the same weapon. Not to mention, multiple people (Rhea, the hermit, etc) who’ve witnessed the JoL heading towards Garreg Mach said they saw the exact same lights as the one in Fort Merceus. I get why one might consider the feat questionable, but it definitely isn’t an outlier, as each character got significantly stronger during the Timeskip. It wouldn’t make sense to call it an outlier just on the basis that it is the only feat of it’s tier.
 
I have work today, but I'll respond again later. But I basically agree more with Gatememer, and even the concept of "Outlier" has honestly always been very less than considerate practice by the very definition.

Plus, I am feeling better than I was yesterday, so that is a plus.
 
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Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.
 
If we were to consider the Javelins an outlier in the first place, it would be due to the fact we (indirectly) scale Byleth (who is stated explicitly not to survive a JoL) to 2 of them, not due to gameplay stuff like Meteor
 
“In the land of Thinis, where the old gods are said to live, the False God has awakened. Its looming, heteromorphic vessel was resurrected to sink the world to the depths of the ocean. It will bring extinction to all children of men, and salvation to all beasts of the land, sky, and sea. For the children of men who spilled too much of the blood of life, it promises only cruel retribution.

”the False God must be defeated before the world sinks into a watery grave. To this end, the children of men have erected pillars of light upon the land. Thinis, Malum, Septen and Llium were utterly destroyed. Those lands have vanished from this world. Yet even still, the False God stands. And soon, a flood aptly named Despair will drown this world.

”The children of men fled to the depths of the earth, beyond the sight of the False God, beyond the embrace of the sacred sun, and beyond the reach of the waters of Despair. They swore a fervent oath of revenge against the surface world, ruled by beasts, and against their tormentor, the False God.”
Click to expand...
Basically, Sothis was in Thinis, the Agarthans nuked Thinis, and she still stood.
 
Well, the arguments about Javelins of Light and their nature is starting to become circular, so just going to focus on the consistency aspect and scaling shenanigans.
JustSomeWeirdo said:
If we were to consider the Javelins an outlier in the first place, it would be due to the fact we (indirectly) scale Byleth (who is stated explicitly not to survive a JoL) to 2 of them, not due to gameplay stuff like Meteor
Click to expand...
That sounds more like an cherry pick tbh. There are plenty of characters up to Universe level or Multiverse level who allegedly don't consider themselves able to survive exploding planets or collapsing buildings. Also, it's common for a lot of really strong characters to not know the full extent of their own strength or just simply don't want to take even light risks. And some characters may be more threatened by the hazardous non breathable fumes commonly caused by those events rather than the force or impact. Plus, the fact that Byleth fought the strongest version of Rhea, when it was a severely weakened version of Rhea who carries the feats implies Byleth would upscale anyway.

And like a tradition for all JRPG verses, Fire Emblem characters consistently get stronger and stronger after every chapter. Making tier jumps not so outlierish in all seriousness. Especially when comparing fodder characters to god tiers. If other verses of the same genre can eventually jump from Tier 9 to Tier 2 by the same premise, there's no reason for going from soloing armies of Tier 7 soldiers then going from fighting on par with Tier 6 dragon gods to be controversial.

As for the Javelins of Lights own feats; it has three that are equally consistent with the latter two more likely being lowballed if anything.
  • Destruction of Fort Merceus done using 2 Javelins of Light. Low 7-B each and also doesn't take into the account about the fort being much more durable than the average stronghold.
  • Causing the Valley of Torment. Done using "A single pillar of light", which pillars of light usually have 2 to 4 Javelins. Totality calculated at 6-C but lowballed assuming 10 Javelins used at 7-A?
  • The destruction of multiple countries and sinking them below the oceans. Used multiple Javelins and completely unknown. But assuming it took 100, still puts the result at High 6-C individually.
As for other feats done by characters stronger than fodder, we have this.
  • Sword of the Creator as a lore statement about cutting a mountain in half; Low 7-B on average.
  • Crest of Charon has a statement about conjuring a powerful thunderstorm. And crests are a universal power source where magic powers are very linked to physical amplifications in canon. Catherine has this and scales to all post timeskip students. But pre-timeskip is implied to be the strongest of the knights of Seiros. Lysithea also has this crest with it being the weaker half of her two crests and is in the same ballpark as other students despite her two crests, so would logically be comparable for everyone.
  • Prime Sothis floods the entire world. High 6-A for the true god tiers then, which is fairly reasonable all things considered.
So yeah, I think Gatememer hammers it here.
 
Where's the statement about the Crest of Charon?

Keep in mind I wasn't quite around for the tiering of Three Houses

Edit: it would appear I've found it.......I disagree with it for reasons I'll probably be bringing up soon
 
ArbitraryNumbers brought it up in another thread that they at least have the pool of energy
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well, the arguments about Javelins of Light and their nature is starting to become circular, so just going to focus on the consistency aspect and scaling shenanigans.

That sounds more like an cherry pick tbh. There are plenty of characters up to Universe level or Multiverse level who allegedly don't consider themselves able to survive exploding planets or collapsing buildings.
Click to expand...
Yes, those are anti-feats. It's not PIS, it's something that can be used to legitimately argue that the characters should be rated lower depending on context.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, it's common for a lot of really strong characters to not know the full extent of their own strength or just simply don't want to take even light risks.
Click to expand...
No indication of this. Byleth is literally an expert strategist, default assumption is not that they don't know their own power lol
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And some characters may be more threatened by the hazardous non breathable fumes commonly caused by those events rather than the force or impact.
Click to expand...
No indications of this.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Plus, the fact that Byleth fought the strongest version of Rhea, when it was a severely weakened version of Rhea who carries the feats implies Byleth would upscale anyway.
Click to expand...
No, it just makes the feat even more inconsistent.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If other verses of the same genre can eventually jump from Tier 9 to Tier 2 by the same premise, there's no reason for going from soloing armies of Tier 7 soldiers then going from fighting on par with Tier 6 dragon gods to be controversial.
Click to expand...
Different verses different context, c'mon
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Causing the Valley of Torment. Done using "A single pillar of light", which pillars of light usually have 2 to 4 Javelins. Totality calculated at 6-C but lowballed assuming 10 Javelins used at 7-A?
Click to expand...
You can't argue consistency and then lowball the higher-end feat. Even then the difference between these is several hundreds of times at least.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The destruction of multiple countries and sinking them below the oceans. Used multiple Javelins and completely unknown. But assuming it took 100, still puts the result at High 6-C individually.
Click to expand...
The fact that the number is completely unknown means that the feat isn't really usable in this argument at all. Could have been 3, could have been 10000.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Sword of the Creator as a lore statement about cutting a mountain in half; Low 7-B on average.
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You sure? Cutting stuff in two tends to get pretty low results compared to destroying it.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Prime Sothis floods the entire world. High 6-A for the true god tiers then, which is fairly reasonable all things considered.
Click to expand...
Wasn't it agreed in some old thread that nobody should scale to prime Sothis?
 
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Just saying, but the Javelins of Light never sunk any countries, just destroyed them. Also, the Charon feat was completely debunked even in the support itself, where both Catherine and Lysithea themselves say that there is no evidence that their presence actually brings a thunderstorm. Also, I'm pretty sure that the JoL's had a 7-B Cloud Dispersion feat somewhere.
 
So have you reached any agreements whose results can be applied here?
 
TheGatememer said:
Just saying, but the Javelins of Light never sunk any countries, just destroyed them. Also, the Charon feat was completely debunked even in the support itself, where both Catherine and Lysithea themselves say that there is no evidence that their presence actually brings a thunderstorm. Also, I'm pretty sure that the JoL's had a 7-B Cloud Dispersion feat somewhere.
Click to expand...
If they have a 7-B feat for the shells, then that would mean Rhea could scale to that for destroying them, perhaps
 
Armorchompy said:
Yes, those are anti-feats. It's not PIS, it's something that can be used to legitimately argue that the characters should be rated lower depending on context.
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Again, "Anti-feats" are the most grossly misused term used on Vs Debating and this is a perfect example if it also being grossly misused. It is not to be mixed with "Non casual low end feat", and it's a statement not an anti-feat. It needs to be something that physically happened to be an anti-feat such as someone getting hit and dying from it. The fact that it was avoided before he got hit removes any "anti-feats" happening in the first place.
Armorchompy said:
No indication of this. Byleth is literally an expert strategist, default assumption is not that they don't know their own power lol
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Expert strategist =/= omniscience. Also, being smart just means that even light threats are things that are unwanted. If a smart body builder doesn't want to get stung by a bee, does that make the body builder physically weaker than a bee?
Armorchompy said:
No indications of this.
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All fires and explosions produce carbon monoxide poisoning and other similar chemicals. And nuclear explosions generate heavy levels of radioactivity. This is just common knowledge.
Armorchompy said:
No, it just makes the feat even more inconsistent.
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Accelerated Development and reactive power level. That is the answer. Byleth and Rhea were both signifigantly stronger than they were chapters ago. Plain and simple.
Armorchompy said:
Different verses different context, c'mon
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Yes, I know this a lot more than most. But this isn't some 100+ authors who don't know how to separate fodder humans from top tier metahumans. Nor is this a non-fantasy modern warfare setting where all characters have mostly static realistic power levels and rely on technology to fight their battles for them. This is a fantasy setting where everybody grows stronger after every battle. Especially the main protagonists. I'm comparing to verses that literally do follow the same context 100%. Since when am I not allowed compare it to the very same verse?
Armorchompy said:
You can't argue consistency and then lowball the higher-end feat. Even then the difference between these is several hundreds of times at least.
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All feats are lowballed. Plain and simple.
Armorchompy said:
The fact that the number is completely unknown means that the feat isn't really usable in this argument at all. Could have been 3, could have been 10000.
Click to expand...
You mean a weapon Agarthians have very seldom amounts of to begin with? That they only ever use as a last resort? It only makes smaller numbers far more likely.
Armorchompy said:
You sure? Cutting stuff in two tends to get pretty low results compared to destroying it.
Click to expand...
Cutting a 2000 foot tall mountain in half; which is the international baseline for mountain as opposed to a hill. Is Low 7-B based on Bambu who I think calculated.
Armorchompy said:
Wasn't it agreed in some old thread that nobody should scale to prime Sothis?
Click to expand...
That was a long time ago. And back when we thought Prime Sothis was tier 2, but since we have no evidence of that and statements of Byleth being as strong as Prime Sothis due to the fact that he/she physically IS Prime Sothis.
TheGatememer said:
Just saying, but the Javelins of Light never sunk any countries, just destroyed them.
Click to expand...
Yes, I worded that poorly. But it still destroyed the entire landmasses, not just the countries surfaces. The went from having multiple countries not appearing on world map. Imagine if someone nuked parts of Asia, to the point where it is now the size of Europe or Australia with a bunch of counties completely missing. That's basically the full context of the feat type albeit not quite the same level.

Also, JustSomeWierdo has been confusing me as of late. Not sure what his change in position is because he sort of agreed in the end Rhea should scale from Javelins but had different reasons for it from what I heard. Or at least that used to be his thoughts. Only curious, not judging.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, JustSomeWierdo has been confusing me as of late. Not sure what his change in position is because he sort of agreed in the end Rhea should scale from Javelins but had different reasons for it from what I heard. Or at least that used to be his thoughts. Only curious, not judging.
Click to expand...
I don't think I agreed?
 
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