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if he is allergic, that doesn't affect his tier. If the bee would just hurt, then the body builder's tier would not be affected. From what I read in this thread, Byleth was like "Oh shit, I gotta get the **** outta here!"
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Characters cannot reasonably be scaled to Javelins of Light (Fire Emblem: Three Houses)
- Thread starter The_Smashor
- Start date
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If a character believes they could die from something and we have no reason to disbelieve them, that absolutely is an anti-feat. So are "Non casual low end feats", for the record.
Are you kidding? You're telling me this person who has been fighting a war for god knows a long and stomping god knows how much fodder doesn't know how strong they or other fighters are? The same fighters that can cut a mountain in half or survive meteors to the face? That's just not logical.
You're fully aware that bees are venomous, don't make false equivalences. Plus, this isn't a "this might hurt a little" situation, it's a "this would 100% kill all of you" situation.
You yourself literally said there's no proof the explosion is radioactive in this thread, and the Javelins don't really cause any huge fires or anything, nevermind that the implication is clearly that the huge explosion is what would kill them.
Professor's guidance just increases Byleth's growth by 1.2x, definitely not enough to assume such a huge growth, and they literally don't even have RPL. Rhea not only has neither but doesn't get in many fights off-screen, which is how FE characters grow in power.
Not provably to this extent.
That's exactly the issue, if you're trying to argue consistency then you can't assume a random really high number for the feats to make them closer to the low end one.
... So, it's likely to be much less missiles, which would make the feat higher, and as such much much higher than the other showings it's supposedly consistent with.
Could I see that? I believe we've come up with a new cutting calc this year, one that Bambu has been using too, and it tends to give relatively underwhelming results.
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I need to respond again... But I hope my pc doesn't crash 15 time in a row again. Like it was.
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ur pc is trying to tell you to concede
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Byleth was never hit by a Javelin of Light at point blank range, it was something he hasn't scene before and didn't want to risk underestimations. Plus, the last one block by Rhea was something he attempted to repel with the Sword of the Creator. Which using that to justify he would scale anyway is just as bad as attempting to avoid it is evidence of not scaling. So best not to use either.
That's my point exactly, some people don't know if they're allergic to bees. And some wasps or hornets are still venomous even to those not allergic. But, even people who fought full grown grizzly bears still want to avoid letting someone's dog bite them. Plus the point of "Not actually knowing how strong a Javelin of Light compared to his own strength" still stands.
Never said or confirmed outright they had radioactivity; because they in fact don't. But they do leave giant lava pits via melting land masses. Which still applies with the fire and carbon monoxide poisoning.
In game character statistics =/= canon tier jumps linearly. Everyone still gains experience points and levels up, with canon statements about getting stronger in various cutscenes and support conversations. I've seen bigger tier jumps despite even less in game number jumps. And Rhea was sick and suffering from Zoochosis like symptoms and was in her traditional dragon form. And later developed a Berserk form much stronger than her traditional Dragon form even the healthy version of her traditional form from Crimson Flower. That still counts as power ups.
Going from struggling to fight a couple mountain bandits and foot soldiers, to later soloing entire armies of them, and then later reach the level of a Dragon God thought invincible to everything aside other Dragon Gods is more than enough. This is the premise of every Fire Emblem game.
RTX found the feat we were looking for, a casual 7-B feat done via casual flight of the Javelins and not detonation. The actual detonation should be many times stronger. And what they all have in common is they all come from characters who are so supposed to be many times stronger than everyone else. Also, if you really want a prime example of what outlier claimers mindset means, this is it.
Oh, this person was strong enough to blow up the moon? Well the next guy much stronger than him has his best feat effortlessly nuking a city with his best attack. And the next guy much stronger has his next best feat nuking a large island which was calculated at Country level. I don't really like the idea of just slapping Moon level to all of these fighters so I'm just going to pretend the first guy never blew up the moon in the first place so I will have my own personal fanmade power scaling chain that suites my preference
This isn't intended as an attack towards anyone. But just the original topic of outliers. Because regardless of whether or outliers are things that shouldn't be ignored, or even exist to begin with. And obviously this would be constructively criticizing myself too. But the truth of the matter is, all an outlier is is just an immature excuse to pretend certain feats never happened primarily because people have some bias against higher statistics ratings.
Yes, because oxymorons are a thing. Ever heard of the good offences being the best defenses and best offences being good defenses? Same thing applies to consistencies and inconsistencies at times. Yes, I am a very rhetorical/complex person and we kind of have to be rhetorical/complex for places like this from time to time.
But, it just means every one of those low end feats are even more lowballed. Fort Merceus could be a stronghold more durable than 7-B. Valley of Torment, which is the middle end feat could have been lowballed and actually another Tier 6 feat. And the final feat is also technically a mid end if there's a High 6-A down the line. Normally God tiers are supposed to go for the high ends but we have multiple mid ends that makes anything less than 7-B absolutely ridiculous or downright ignorant.
Going off vague memory. And my hardware issues regarding my PC making it hard for me to dig but I have been in numerous previous discussions. That definitely mentioned Low 7-B back in 2019. But still, show me the newer version and I'll subtract that from the list of feats. Not that it make any difference in the outcome.
Also, I think other Fire Emblem staff might have other thoughts. For example @Dragonmasterxyz But last I checked, that's more staff/Admins who agree more with me.
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The Death Knight doesn't know everything about Byleth. Him saying that Byleth would've died doesn't mean that they would've actually died, considering that Byleth fused with someone who is heavily implied to have survived some in the past. Just because it wouldn't kill them, it would be stupid for them to just stand still and do nothing, as it's still going to harm them.
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I know what you're talking about.
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Apparently saying that the Death Knight doesn't know everything about Byleth is a mental gymnastic. The Death Knight is the one who said they would die, not Byleth.
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Death Knight knew that HE would die
Death Knight knows he's in the same ballpark as Byleth
Therefore, Byleth would die
It's that simple, man should at least know the strength of the one person he considers a rival
Death Knight knows he's in the same ballpark as Byleth
Therefore, Byleth would die
It's that simple, man should at least know the strength of the one person he considers a rival
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Yeah, neither Byleth nor Sothis went "Oh crap, this thing is gonna wipe us out!" or anything of the sort. It was Death Knight who was like "Look bro, I wanna fight you to the death later. I'ma bounce so this JoL doesn't kill me and I suggest you do the same."
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Byleth is significantly stronger than the Death Knight. Even if the Death Knight would've died, it doesn't mean that Byleth would've, especially when we kinda know that A. They fused with someone that can and most likely has, and B. Byleth scales above, or at least to Rhea, who can survive two even while in rather poor shape.
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Byleth and Death Knight literally fight on multiple occasions??? I really don't know where we're getting that Death Knight's suddenly immensely weaker
Sothis couldn't have been in her prime as that's literally what her childlike form represents
also we seem to be forgetting that Rhea has multiple lives to burn through as The Immaculate One
Sothis couldn't have been in her prime as that's literally what her childlike form represents
also we seem to be forgetting that Rhea has multiple lives to burn through as The Immaculate One
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Considering an individual a rival doesn't mean that's what they are. I could consider Bruce Lee in his prime to be a rival, but it doesn't change the fact that he's significantly stronger and more skilled than me.
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We literally scale Death Knight to Byleth, that's a huge false equivalency
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Yea they fight, that doesn't mean that Death Knight is equal to Byleth. Especially considering the fact that the Death Knight would've died from the JoL, but Byleth wouldn't have. For instance, Hubert doesn't scale to Byleth despite fighting them a bunch of times. (Now that I mention it, jeez Three Houses scaling in it's current state is an absolute mess)
Sothis says that she regained her power right before they fused.
Had she gone through another life, then she would've been fully healed. That was clearly not the case here, as she was gravely injured.
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Then scaling to Prime Sothis would literally be like, 10x more consistent than to the JoLs alone, ngl
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Unfortunate that Byleth being killed by Javelins is supported by other occasions while attempting to use the sword is nothing more than a basic human reflex that wouldn't have necessarily worked.
... are you seriously using this kind of logic? Nevermind that the only way to "fight full grown grizzly bears" is to flail away and pray they get spooked before tearing you apart, and that humans do not """"""scale"""""" to the biggest ******* land predator on Earth, a dog is still """"""comparable""""" to a human if you insist on applying our hyper-simplified VSBW logic to real life.
Absolutely no reason to assume this, for the record, although 7-B would end up scaling to Rhea anyway.
What are you talking about? I don't even understand how this is related to the debate anymore
D-Do outliers just not exist to you? Is the sheer concept of anti-feats something you don't believe in??
Drop the pseudo-intellectualism and speak English, please.
Could being the keyword here.
If Javelins are accepted to scale to PCs which is what we are debating. Their supposed internal consistency doesn't really matter in regards to that.
Here
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Death Knight being downgraded is something I have no objections against. Byleth fights and defeats him multiple times Pre-Timeskip and even Caspar fought and defeated him at one point. Plus, in the chapter where Jeritza dies, he's implied to be fairly equal to Hubert who is weaker than Edelgard who sees Byleth as the only one who humbles her.
And yeah, the only ones who should scale from Prime Sothis are Byleth, the Three Lords, the End Game bosses, and possibly Umbral Beast. Neutral about Maurice, Maculi, and Indech.
And yeah, the only ones who should scale from Prime Sothis are Byleth, the Three Lords, the End Game bosses, and possibly Umbral Beast. Neutral about Maurice, Maculi, and Indech.
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If the Umbral Beast scales to Byleth, then Macuil and Indech definitely should. Especially Macuil, since he is stated to be second only to Seiros in strength.
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Death Knight being defeated pre-timeskip is always optional, isn't it? Unless DLC changes that. And gameplay hints at him being way superior to anyone at the time.
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Death Knight is a required boss in a few of the chapters iirc. (Like the chapter where Flayn gets kidnapped)
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No he's not, that's entirely optional
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Plus he never actually loses even if you beat him, he just mumbles some stuff about it not being the right time for a fight and leaves.
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Actually, the 1st time, Flame Emperor orders him to retreat. Plus, "Optional bosses" are still in the same ballpark as optional party members and mandatory bosses. Not to mention Flame Emperor is still above Jeritza, and who is Flame Emperor? Pre-Timeskip Edelgard.
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Same result.
... That's not like, a hard rule or anything you know. In fact it's not a rule at all.
What is your reasoning for believing this?
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Flame Emperor doesn't just tell Death Knight to retreat, she tells him that he's "having a bit too much fun"
Death Knight even complains about having to leave, given his newfound murdercrush, that she's interrupting his "game"
Context tells you that he's clearly playing with them in that fight, it doesn't even need expert level reading comprehension, they literally tell you he's treating it as a game
Death Knight even complains about having to leave, given his newfound murdercrush, that she's interrupting his "game"
Context tells you that he's clearly playing with them in that fight, it doesn't even need expert level reading comprehension, they literally tell you he's treating it as a game
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Scroll up and read new points. It's actually not anymore. It was Death Knight and not Byleth who was unsure about his survival. But with new evidence, Death Knight isn't actually Byleth's equal. But we have character inferior to Byleth who can tank 2 Javelins, and a character Byleth is literally fused with actually tanked one. So Byleth technically has a durability feat of his own so there.
First of all calm down, this is relatively ill behaved for a staff to act.
Actually, people can kill Grizzely Bears with bladed weapons and such; happened before. And punching them in the nose still has scared bears in the past. And you still miss the point, being top dog doesn't suddenly make everyone reckless.
Really, a missile blowing up wouldn't have more firepower than a casual movement through the sky? Glad you conceded to that part though.
Text book definition of what calling high end feats "Outliers" sounds and is exactly what they typically say in that regard. I didn't even bring up other verses; reference maybe but not bring up. But verse A and verse B parables aren't whataboutisms, but educational words of wisdom. And a reasonable life lesson.
They do exist, just commonly exaggerated and overused. But it doesn't change the fact that the words I said about them hold true.
I am using English words and staying calm, I have no intentions of igniting harm. Just trying to help the community, nothing more. I do not understand how I'm THAT hard to understand. I've been here long and worked really hard to maintain peace and solitude in the community despite RL frustrations have I not?
That's my point exactly, it means it's not sufficient evidence of an anti-feat. Which in itself is outnumbered by the actual attack potency feat. Also, speaking of numbers, if two cause a Low 7-B feat, it's actually 2 Low 7-B feats. And if 10 or more did a 6-C in totality feat, that's technically 10 7-A feats individually. And if 100 did a 6-B feat altogether, that's technically 100 High 6-C feats individually. Which technically means the high end feats are more numerous at the current states. Yes, lowering number of Javelins would result in less number of feats. But does that really matter in the end after the next point?
Even the part of sort of harming Sothis could just make them another High 6-A thing to scale off of. Just vote, absolute safe lowball is 7-B. High end is Sothis scaling from her own best feat and Javelins being her rival. Or one of the middle of the road feats in between. Most likely the former or the high end if we want no Golden Egg fallacies. But I vote the high end. You can go ahead and vote for 7-B if you wish which is fine, but let's see how others vote.
I saw no comparison to a 609 meter tall mountain but a 40 meter tall iron house boat. But okay.
We make profiles for optional bosses all the time who have statements canon to the lore. Don't see how Death Knight is any different; he's the Kishuna of Three Houses.
The fact Thales calls Flame Emperor "Their greatest creation" over Death Knight. Death Knight is the one taking orders from Flame Emperor and not the other way around. The fact Those Who Slither in the Dark are one of those might makes right civilizations who choses leaders based on strength. And his actual True boss fight ends with him being a miniboss with Hubert being a boss.
Also, that still implies Death Knight doesn't just strait up oneshot his foes the 1st time around.
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Those Who Slither had like, no involvement in Death Knight's upbringing, there's no reason for them to call him "their creation" at all
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He's still her left hand with Hubert being her right hand. And was more so Hubert's equal during his final appearance.
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Edelgard simply trusts Hubert (who follows her orders down to the letter, with very minor exceptions) more than Jeritza (a crazed lunatic/serial killer who doesn't always follow orders)
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Jeritza is still loyal to her regardless, also, going to be inactive for a few hours spending time with a friend.
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Anyways, Death Knight is always 100% optional pre-timeskip (would only scale to his Pre-Timeskip key anyways), and I'd honestly call the single showing of Death Knight not being equal to Byleth (vs Caspar) either an outlier or that he was holding back because
1. He shows zero interest in fighting Caspar, he even just stands there (menacingly)
2. He just kinda....walks it off afterwards and acts as if nothing happened
Every other time you face him he's not only interested in fighting Byleth, but entirely uninterested in fighting anyone else. Even in the JoL cutscenes he's shown to have fought Byleth (like, literally nobody else is there except a battalion). Just like how we can assume Kronya fought Byleth because the animated cutscenes has her running away from Byleth for her life. In their S Support, even, Jeritza is still entirely fixated on fighting Byleth to the death, referring to Those Who Slither as "flies" in comparison.
Any downgrade to Post-Timeskip Death Knight comes entirely from the one time Caspar fights him and military rank/boss order, and I will not have that. Keep in mind that the Black Knight's military rank is shared with 3 other people he's stronger than (he's stronger than an amped Ashnard, even). Camus was stronger in Shadow Dragon than most people Marth even faces in Mystery (he's simply built different tbh) despite being an entire game later. Rank and boss order doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of power
1. He shows zero interest in fighting Caspar, he even just stands there (menacingly)
2. He just kinda....walks it off afterwards and acts as if nothing happened
Every other time you face him he's not only interested in fighting Byleth, but entirely uninterested in fighting anyone else. Even in the JoL cutscenes he's shown to have fought Byleth (like, literally nobody else is there except a battalion). Just like how we can assume Kronya fought Byleth because the animated cutscenes has her running away from Byleth for her life. In their S Support, even, Jeritza is still entirely fixated on fighting Byleth to the death, referring to Those Who Slither as "flies" in comparison.
Any downgrade to Post-Timeskip Death Knight comes entirely from the one time Caspar fights him and military rank/boss order, and I will not have that. Keep in mind that the Black Knight's military rank is shared with 3 other people he's stronger than (he's stronger than an amped Ashnard, even). Camus was stronger in Shadow Dragon than most people Marth even faces in Mystery (he's simply built different tbh) despite being an entire game later. Rank and boss order doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of power
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Still being debated.
Yes, I'm sure there's many people IRL who've killed a grizzly bear with a katana. And neither of those cases would """""scale""""" anyway.
No, the comparison is just not good, because even a medium sized dog could cause serious injuries to any human being, meanwhile the nuke you're arguing would be survived with relative ease, nevermind that Byleth had very serious reasons to try and hold the place they'd just conquered.
Payload and KE aren't necessarily related. Obviously in real life the former is much higher than the latter but IRL nukes don't have 7-B KE.
In your opinion, which I mostly disagree with and haven't seen
This is just not about fire emblem at all anymore so I'm going to ignore it for the sake of brevity.
We're debating right now. I haven't seen the Sothis statements so I have no opinion on that.
The method for splitting stuff is the same, no matter whether it's done to a sheet of steel or mt. Everest.
Kishuna doesn't even fight back... And the statements obviously vary between characters, nevermind that we don't have a Kishuna page.
Not only is the Death Knight not an actual experiment, but Edelgard is literally the only human on Earth who has two Crests (they consider Lysithea a failure cause of her lifespan), she is literally the pinnacle of their achievements, it's not necessarily a power thing.
... because he is treating it as a game.
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Pre timeskip is more or less an optional thing, but also has other details. But there's the fact that he was interested in fighting base Byleth at the time, when Flame Emperor was more so fearful of a merged Byleth. But the focus is Post-Timeskip and I still don't think Death Knight fighting Byleth while being uninterested in everyone else automatically means he's his equal. I could just mean Jeritza is egotistical. Also, I agree in that boss order and military rank alone aren't evidence, but there are other differences. Main villains are typically assumed to be stronger than your average bosses. Also, 2 bosses fought during the same chapter are kind of a different story than boss order. Especially when the main boss is typically stronger than the sub-boss if anything. In chapter 19, Jeritza is the sub-boss while Hubert is the main boss. Also, they're both mandatory.
Also, for other FE villains. Black Knight more so comes from a more established Kingdom where the King is based on birthright, and Four Riders are just the 4 strongest generals. Plus, Black Knight has far better God tier shenanigans compared to Death Knight by the simple fact he's invincible compared to everyone else in PoR. And Radiant Dawn despite him losing his goddess blessing still has him a max leveled fully promoted unit. And same stats as his Final Chapter Floor 2 at all times. As for Camus, he's comparable to base Marth, not quite Falchion Marth. Same with Zeke being base Alm level, and Sirius is one of the strongest FE3/FE12 units in canon, but still not quite Falchion Marth tier.
Actually, I'd best consider Death Knight the Walhart of the series. The guy who one-shots everyone till you fight him as a boss? He fought Exalted Falchion Chrom, but is still not Tier 6.
But, my final point still stands. I think the fact that Byleth is merged with someone who actually tanked a Javelin is far more factual evidence than a "You're own arch nemesis wants to fight you at your best, so he went out of his way to save you because he wasn't confident enough. Not like Death Knight or Byleth ever took the direct hit and died from it in canon". Also, this is common for all RPG plots to be handled, but since this is the type of playthrough giving us the most actual story info. It's the logical assumption to assume 100% completionism. Meaning all side quests were done, all heart to heart/support conversations were viewed minus the full on ship trains since those are 1 per playthrough stuff. And most importantly, in Fire Emblem's case, the logical assumption is everyone who can be recruited was recruited and there were no casualties.
Yeah, not quite Wall level IRL humans, but a lot of them are Street level.
A 10-B or 10-A sized dog being a threat to a 9-C human? Yes, I am resting my case. Still, it was Jeritza and not Byleth who feared for Byleth's safety. And still not like Jeritza has proof that he or Byleth would die from it. Where as Sothis and Rhea have both physically tanked Javelins before despite the former being part of Byleth and the latter both being nerfed via captivity sickness + being a bigger target that absorbs more impact compared to Byleth or Jeritza.
Actually, once it detonates. The Potential Energy becomes Kinetic Energy meaning both are Kinetic Energy. Yes, rocket launchers have 9-C to 9-B KE via propelling velocity but are higher levels of 9-B or some cases 9-A upon detonation. Nuclear Missiles are Tier 8 via launching velocity, but Tier 7 when they explode. Also, that only strengthens my argument because you were using IRL examples for other practices. This is a Javelin being through at 7-B levels of KE, and the impact causes a lot more damage than the simple soaring through the air. And it allegedly does serious damage to characters who might as well be High 6-A either way.
A scientific analysis based on scientific reasoning while explaining the examples is an opinion? Same thing has been said about basic math formulas but that doesn't make them right.
Then you probably shouldn't have yelled at me or called me a pseudo intellectual to begin with.
Fair enough, but that's all that really matters now, so maybe this should be the last super length post out of either of us. And we can stop talking about the Javelins if we just decide on the Sothis scaling.
It would still be like 15x higher due to being 15x taller object. But still 8-B and thus not too impressive. So I already said I'm retracting that part from the list of feats.
But we do have some for other optional bosses from Three Houses, and Kishuna would still be having notable durability feats. But still, optional bosses are not leagues above main bosses if side quests are implied to be gone through.
Lysithea still has two crests, so a false statement regardless of whether or not relevant about "Edelgard being the only one with two crests". Or whether she's seen as a failure. She still becomes their strongest in the end save Verdant Wind where they have Nemesis to resurrect instead. But there is still too much unknown information about the Death Knight's tier which RTX already addressed.
Okay... But not the most relevant detail anymore.
Anyway, I have work today, so this might be the last time I post here in a while.
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This shouldn't even be in discussion
Rhea took 2 Javelins right to the face and lived
This was an extremely weakened Rhea who was in her first Immaculate One Form
Rhea then transforms twice into far more powerful Immaculate One Forms and loses to Byleth and Co
Endgame Byleth and Co should absolutely scale to the Javelins of Light
Rhea took 2 Javelins right to the face and lived
This was an extremely weakened Rhea who was in her first Immaculate One Form
Rhea then transforms twice into far more powerful Immaculate One Forms and loses to Byleth and Co
Endgame Byleth and Co should absolutely scale to the Javelins of Light
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I am sorry to hear that Medeus. I hope that you have backed up all of your files to external hard drives.
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The absolute strongest human on Earth would still be torn apart by a bear without being able to put up any resistance yes.
If you just let them bite you, yes, duh, humans are not made of iron and most dogs have pretty strong bite force compared to their size. This is like, basic common sense. Do you think Mike Tyson would just shrug the blade off if I tried to stab him?
He literally is on the side of the people who wield the weapons, it would take an extreme level of mental gymnastics to say that he doesn't know whether he would die to them or not.
It wouldn't be an energy explosion, though, just an impact that would mainly be dispersed into the ground. The actual explosion is caused by a completely unrelated mix of magic and tech.
Scientific? Seriously? You're literally comparing to treat the consistency of fictional characters to math. Your "scientific analysis" on outliers is literally just an opinion, a real hot take at that.
No, you should not have made the argument to begin with. I have basically re-edited all of my messages to be as polite as possible before posting them and I apologize if some stuff slipped through but your claims are just outlandish.
rock and steel shearing strength are different so not really, but on the other hand it'd be way wider too, i'd eyeball it as 8-A/Low 7-C.
Not if they hold back. Also for the record, everyone in TH grows in power a lot between the timeskip, DK has no reason to be excluded.
They literally do consider her as a failure tho. Like it's not me guessing.
Keyword becomes.
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