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Calc stacking and Undertale downgrade

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In UT, the battle board is clearly a representatio of what is really happening.

For example, y'know Sans's attack after he hugs you? Did he really use an undodgeable attack, no it's just a representation of his attack being undogeable at that range. And when Undyne shoots or stabs spears at you and one of them hits you, it clearly doesn't suddenly split into hundreds like it looks on the bullet board that's just a representation of what's happening.
 
No.

Using an assumed speed for KE is calc stacking. I don't care what type of justifications or loops or minimizations or whatever is used to disguise that fact. If you get a speed for a character or object based on something relative to them, it is fine to apply KE to it. Extending it anywhere else is calc stacking.

Regardless, I am already very iffy about using the KE of a creature traveling at a certain speed, even if the creature is massive and would need such energy to survive. For feats bordering on relativistic, I am doubly so doubtful about using the KE of an entire creature, especially if they don't use full body attacks and haven't shown anything close to it.

In other words, if we are talking about a town level character to start off with and they suddenly show a tremendous speed boost combined with full body attacks, I would be comfortable with a KE boost from town to, say, city. But from city block to island or anything close? Nope.


Also, we have established a new, quantitative rule about how relativistic speeds are calculated relative to the KE they produce, such that someone doesn't just use 0.999999999c and get planet level because they feel like it. Check the kinetic energy feats page.
 
So the napstablook calc is calc stacking because we assume his speed based on a statement of the feat, as opposed to directly seeing him perform the feat? What about determining Frisk's speed relative to the ball of light, and using that to calc KE? He would have to be able to survive moving at those speeds so it should scale to his durability in that instance, and therefor also scale to the AP of Knight Knight and anyone stronger than him.
 
So, what is yr opinion?

Should we calc how KK drops dat moon and use that for the high tiers of UT's ke, and then use Napsta for the lower tiers?
 
I was referring to the bone speed calc as calc stacking.

Napstablook...my problems with that one have more to deal with the other feats the character has shown and his lack of full body usage as an attack. Keep in mind, I am not opposed to his speed being there, but actually using his speed as it is for a translation from speed to KE. I don't like translating speed to KE and honestly I think it should only be used in the most, blatant blatant of examples.

There's also the fact that the best feat (correct me if I am wrong) comes from Tsunderplane dropping bombs that are likely town level, city level if we assume nukes which is a rather highball.
 
Thing is though that we can't count the number of bombs she drops.

Stuff on the bullet board is a representation, as has been shown many times.
 
There's also the fact that the best feat (correct me if I am wrong) comes from Tsunderplane dropping bombs that are likely town level

Are there any bombs at all that are Town Level? AFAIK the best non-nuclear weapons we have are City Block, which would be consistent with the above Vulkin lightning calc I did
 
The bombs didn't have any effect on the enviroment, so it's unlikely in non-bullet board reality there were many of them.
 
It's like, 20% slower than the SOUL tbh. Small City I assume.

But of course this is all based on the belief that KK's sun bullets were actual beams of sunlight. There has been significant debate on the topic and nothing will change that unless we get complete and utter evidence for it.
 
Moon drop would require too many assumptions

Most notable of which being that the magic Moon is the size of the real Moon and has the same mass
 
Yeah obviously, which is why doing it would take far too many assumptions. Even if it filled the entire battleboard and we assumed its a sphere the result would still be lower than the Vulkin's lightning thing.
 
I don't think we can take the assumption that the moon is moving at rel speeds because it's 20% slower than the soul,if I understand correctly that would be calc stacking. Frisk could also be less determined to dodge this attack all of a sudden I still think that KE of Frisk moving at rel speeds should scale to his durability, but if that's an outlier then I guess we can't use it. Also since tsunderplane can appear with vulkin, I assume that means it can use the attack where it has planes charge at you as vulkin uses its lightning, in which case could KE for those planes be calced?
 
Well he has a SoL attack, if we assume all his attacks are the same speed we can't get KE, if we don't then we're deriving the speed of the moon from the speed of Frisk's soul which is calc stacking
 
Well, firstly comparing the Moon's speed to the assumed sunlight speed and then getting KE is also calc-stacking since it's calcing based on an assumption.

Plus in order to begin doing that we'd first have to prove that the sunlight attack is in-fact lightspeed despite it meeting none of the qualifications for assuming that.

http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/198-laser

Going by this (since it is OBD), the laser is visually seen, that is okay. It does not go in a continuous line, which automatically disqualifies it by the article's measures. The speed is never stated, nor is it ever stated to be light. On top of that, it doesn't meet the last qualification either (a realistic setting or one with scientific inclinations)
 
Napstablook, papyrus are are calc stacking, KK is non factual, Tsunderplane is unquantifiable, Vulkin's calc is based on bullet board reality, it's bullshit to say that they are tier 9, Lesser Dog is also calc stacking.
 
Your proposed methods are based on bullet board reality too.

If we go purely by Overworld feats then this is a Tier 9 verse. The only non-bullet board feats we have are Undyne suplexing boulders and shaking her house and then timeline resetting IIRC. There are a few very minor bit ones here and there but nothing exceeding Tier 9.
 
No, battle board does represent what's happening as Azzy has said at least 100 times. It'd be "Unknown, at least 8-B scaling from Vulkin"
 
Would calcing tsunderplane's KE based on how fast tsunderplane's charging attack is compared to the bolts of lightning (since they can appear at the same time) result in anything good?

Also if someone calced Frisk's KE for dodging the light could we put them at possibly whatever the result is, but note that it may be an outlier?
 
It does represent it, but loosely. Sans didn't whip out a magical un dodge able attack when u spare him, it's just that at that range it is undodgeable, there are also other things such as undyne's spears apparently splitting into dozens when you get hit by one. Normal calc methods do not work for loose interpretations.
 
Eeeeeeh I guess, but that's where 90% of all the feats come from. I think it'd be safe to say that the Vulkin thing is un-arguably lightning enough though, since he does refer to it as "lightning" in his own flavor text.

@Blahblah Read the above few messages about the KK thing.
 
The thing where it lasts for 2 seconds cannot be affirmed as Undyne's spears show bullet board time does not equal real time.
 
Oh whoops, guess I missed that as I was reading through, but what about the Tsunderplane thing

And I agree that we shouldn't assume that it's actually 2 seconds, as these are characters who move at rel/rel+ speeds, yet on the bullet board they appear to be moving at human speeds, so it's likely a case of "cinematic timing" or something to that effect
 
If we assume relativistic speeds then it's likely for a millionth or less of a second in which case we have barely superhuman level Frisk physically, maybe even less
 
Well real lightning strikes are small building level iirc Even if Frisk only has the determination to be MHS in this instant, it's still much less than a second since "real" lightning appears to be moving around human speeds
 
I say barely superhuman since even real people can survive lightning strikes, sometimes multiple times. Assuming Frisk is MHS in that instance is, well, an assumption and it's not exactly proper form to assume Frisk is moving a certain speed in order to get higher AP results.
 
The point is that the lightning is real lightning "by assuming that Frisk is only MHS" I meant assuming that this lightning is only moving at the speed of natural lightning, as opposed to what you're doing which is assuming that he lightning is moving at a few meters per second, an unrealistic assumption. I don't think we can use a timeframe on the bullet board since it seems to abuse cinematic timing, making lightning appear to be moving around human speeds, the attacks of a rel/rel+ character appear to move around human speed, and making immeasurable attacks appear to move at low superhuman
 
The Undyne thing shows that split seconds in reality can last for seconds on the bullet board.

Base them off 9a Undyne.
 
I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place. Admitedly, the game is quite vague, but there are plenty of hints of the characters' powers.

Firstly, even the weakest monsters are wall level due to harming Frisk who fell dozens, if not hundreds of meters down Mt. Ebott.

Undyne can crush huge boulders with ease.

Vulkin attacks with lightning, and do to the nature of the character powers, it is unlikely that it is false lightning.

Tsunderplane drops plenty of bombs.

There's the whole bomb Mettaton would have detonated in the Hotlands if not for Alphys deactivating it, and that would have had a Building-sized range, and Mettaton himself is more powerful than that. Building level for that Bomb would be consistent with Vulkin and Tsunderplane.

I believe that a "At least 8-B" for the Top Tiers (Asgore and Toriel) is acceptable.
 
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