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Calc stacking and Undertale downgrade

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LordKill90908

LordKill90908

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Now, the following calculation is for the KE of Papyrus' Absolutely Normal Attack.

[[1]]

The reasoning for this calc is that Papyrus is stronger than Napstablock who has a relativistic feat. While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not.

The calc is utilizing calc stacking from another calc putting Napstablock at relativistic speed, while Papyrus' bones haven't been calced at moving at relativistic speeds.

What this means? Undertale probably could do with a downgrade.
 
There is no calc for Napstablook applied in the Papyrus calc. As far as I'm aware, it used generic relativistic values in order to get both lower and higher ends. You can ask Saikou, since he put the calc together.
 
Also, it's kinda hypocritical we dismiss things like the FF Vegeta calc but not this. Can you go ask him to comment?
 
@Des

I don't know why he wouldn't when he was trying to capture Frisk, unless he just decided to fight reeeeaaaallllly slowly.

@HIT IT

Which FF Vegeta calc?
 
HIT IT said:
So Vulkin's thunderbolts are Relativistic+, too?
Click to expand...
Depends. Is Vulkin stronger than Papyrus (I legitimately cannot remember)? If so, then there's a good chance they might be. If not, probably not.
 
@Azathoth

Papyrus is kind of a nice guy. You just spent the past few puzzles bonding with him, complimenting him, and maybe even saying what a cool guy he was. There is no evidence that Frisk had trouble dodging it, there's no evidence that the bones themselves traveled at relativistic speeds, no evidence of Papyrus throwing the bones at relativistic speeds. The speed itself wasn't even scaled off Papyrus himself, it was scaled from Napstablook's light dodge. Now, I'm not saying Papyrus needs to have his speed downgraded, but his ANA should, because there's no evidence for relativistic speeds. In fact, there are many manga that could benefit from such calcs, like if we assume that rocks in JOJO are being thrown at relativistic speeds.

Besides, the bone was scaled improperly. It was scaled off the soul which has no direct measurement or indication of its size, instead of being scaled off Papyrus.

Also, there's no evidence of the surroundings being destroyed, which also makes island level seem really doubtful, especially when the Monster Realm only looks to be the size of a big city to a small island.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
HIT IT said:
So Vulkin's thunderbolts are Relativistic+, too?
Click to expand...
Depends. Is Vulkin stronger than Papyrus (I legitimately cannot remember)? If so, then there's a good chance they might be. If not, probably not.
Click to expand...
Vulkin's ATK is higher than his.
 
Most of this was already dealt with before.

Things like "No damage was done" or "Thunder can't be Relat+" could be applied to many fictions to "downgrade" them.

As for the measurement, no reasons to calc it from Papyrus, as we see the Annoying Dog appear in battle himself.
 
@Tivanenk

Papyrus bonded with you, yes. That's why he only tries to capture you and halfheartedly seal you in a shed as opposed to severely hurting or killing you. He's still TRYING to win, though. He even tires himself out by the end of the fight, and that would seem odd if he was really holding back by that much.

As for thrown objects being of that speed, well...yeah. They kinda have to be. When DIO throws knives at Jotaro and Joseph, there's absolutely no way they've have trouble dealing with said knives if they weren't moving at FTL speeds.

We really shouldn't go into the surroundings being destroyed, thing. That's such an absurdly common trope in fiction, and as always, Dragon Ball is a prime example. The Monster Realm is also likely larger than what we get to see (considering Frisk essentially takes a relatively straight path to their goal), and literally EVERY monster has to live down there.
 
But the thing is, you can't arbitrarily take a speed and paste it into an equation without proof of it. It either needs to be stated, or derived from on panel showings. This seems like an abuse of stacking. There is literally no indication for island level other than an arbitrarily taken KE calc.


By the way, for the JOJO point, Jotaro and Joseph don't move at FTL speeds.
 
Tivanenk said:
But the thing is, you can't arbitrarily take a speed and paste it into an equation without proof of it. It either needs to be stated, or derived from on panel showings. This seems like an abuse of stacking. There is literally no indication for island level other than an arbitrarily taken KE calc.

By the way, for the JOJO point, Jotaro and Joseph don't move at FTL speeds.
Click to expand...
The speed value isn't arbitrary, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure almost the entire relativistic range was used, and the results were nearly the same for everything. It didn't take a specific value calced for Napstablook and throw it in there.

Yes they do. They can't run at FTL speeds. They can react and fight at them, though. This is shown numerous times. Someone with FTL reactions is going to be able to pluck 1000 knives out of the air if they're not thrown at a speed at least close to what their reactions top at.
 
Des not to be rude but I'd be cool if you bringed more to the conversation than just "yes it's calc stacking lol"

Also yeah the whole Jojo deals is because everything is FTL or so. Unless we get a near-lightspeed thing (But not to close) KE can't really be used,
 
Why do you assume Papyrus is magically throwing his bones at Rel+ speeds?

Also I legit told you every time and you just denied it completely so
 
I didn't ignore you. You just said "It's calc stacking" without really bringing me proof that using non-calc values is considered calc stacking too.

Why wouldn't he be? He's actively trying to beat someone who at that point should be stronger than Napstablook.
 
"For example, if X was calced to be mach 5 from a bullet - timing feat, and Y speedblitzed X, a calc stacker would use mach 5 as X's speed to calc the speed of Y."

Here's an example of calc stacking using an exact value from a previous calc, which this calc didn't do. I need to take a nap. You guys play nice and debate this while I'm gone, or whatever.
 
It's the exact same thing.

Also - yes - yes you did. You denied every piece of proof I gave.

Because it's calc stacking. That's the problem here/. Also, the bones move slower than Frisk's heart.

Also, was Frisk even faster than Napstablook back then?
 
..See? You're doing the same thing as before. Repeating a statement until you convince the other side doesn't work.

As far as I know no it isn't the exact same thing.
 
I uh... don't mean to butt in, but according to Napstablook's profile, the Relativistic speed thing is not based on a calc but a feat by Napstablook (closing the blinds before sunlight reaches him)

So... not calc stacking.
 
Yeah but I'm repeating the act of asking you to gimme proof of it being stacking, and your only answers have been "It is" or "It's common sense lol".
 
I mean, the premise of calc stacking is that the results of one calc is used to define another. However, since no such calc is used to define Napstablook's feat, then it's technically not calc stacking.

What IS potentially fallacious is whether or not there is evidence that Papyrus's bones move as fast as everyone else fights at (I haven't played Undertale, so I don't really have a say on this).

The whole idea of "feat stacking" would imply that feats aren't applicable to each other. For example, if a character is confirmed in story to fly at Mach 22 (in-story statement, mind you) then by this logic it would be fallacious to use said speed to calculate the KE of the missiles flying alongside said character.
 
Because Calcs can be used to get more precise (and often higher) numbers, the process which could be used to bump stats up infinitely.

Here, well, it uses a value gotten from a non-calc (And instead using approximate values instead of calc values, which would be impossible to get in this case).

Pretty much like using mutlipiers.
 
ImagoDesattrolante said:
Also, Im pretty sure Napstablook's feat wasn't calced.
Click to expand...
I think this is what we've be trying to tell you, since it was a flash of light that reached across the Underground that gave Napstablook this speed, who everyone else is scaled to due to Napstablook being a relatively poor fighter by comparison.
 
Nah.

We don't know his initial position.

His Windows placement is downright inconsistent.

No clue if he closed 1 or 2 blinds.

Etc.
 
Hmmm... technically Imago is right here I would think, the general rule, as far as I am concerned, to this point is that KE calcs have to use an specifically quantified speed value to work (the OBD is actually harder in that point, as they even demand a quantified speed that doesn't assume any timeframes in the process).

I don't remember if there are any precedence cases where we applied or have not applied that principal.


Hmm... I don't have time currently, but there should probably be a general (not on the undertale topic focused) thread be made in which this standards are discussed. This rules are established, but I don't think there ever was a discussion specifically about them. Personally I would certainly be in favor of keeping them in the way we have.


Edit: Oh and not calced feats don't get a form of special privilegs. It might be a different thing with statements (even though the assumption that the characters move the same speed the whole time also doesn't necessarily work for those), but not calced feats have to follow the same rules.
 
DontTalk said:
(the OBD is actually harder in that point, as they even demand a quantified speed that doesn't assume any timeframes in the process).
Click to expand...
They seem to be getting significantly less hard on that specific rule, as timeframes that aren't specifically quantified will often be accepted as completely fine if there is good reason to assume what they are and not baseless assumption.

Anyway, back on the main topic, still not seeing how this is a notable case of calc stacking in anything but vague technicality, really. Napstablook performed a rel+ feat, Papyrus scales to him, and thus generic rel+ values were used in the calc. It's not like Napstablook was calced to be exactly 0.9c, and thus the calc used 0.9c, or that it was assumed that since Papyrus is at least twice as strong as Napstablook, he is obviously also twice as fast, and then proceeded to improperly scale that to everything else.

In fact, if this is considered to be calc stacking, then it's certainly targeted a lot more for a lot less than other things which could be considered such. I genuinely fail to see how Napstablook performing a speed feat and then using generic rel+ values to calc AP for Papyrus is considered to be some egregious use of calc stacking, while using multipliers on calced results is deemed as okay. It demonstrates pretty clear double standard, or at the very least some kind of odd, unfair leniency to calcs violating the same rules but using a more obtuse thought process, while the biggest assumption made in this one is "Napstablook can move at Relativistic speeds, so an all around much more powerful character likely should be able to, as well".

Regardless, ground rules can be discussed for things like this in general, though at this point, I don't know how much help I'd be if it comes to Undertale. I am so incredibly burned out on the whole topic that I really couldn't care less what everyone is put at, for what reason, or if I vehemently agree or disagree with said reasons.
 
We can't really, that's just an assumption based on KK.

In fact FTL seems pretty likely if we take Flowey's flash of light as actual sunlight
 
Well being FTL is actually pretty unlikely given that most monsters near the source of the light were unable to escape.

Meanwhile it's actually pretty unlikely to be simply Relat sice Napstablook apparently had to close 2 blinds, and the light was very close at that time.
 
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