Calc stacking and Undertale downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, battle board does represent what's happening as Azzy has said at least 100 times. It'd be "Unknown, at least 8-B scaling from Vulkin"

I think this is ideal.

The God Tiers would remain as they are.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If this goes through, there is going to be a drastic power spike between the top tiers and the god tiers.

Nothing that contradicts it, though.

SOULs are immensely powerful, as described in the game's lore. And they do have many feats.

Edit: Also, if you believe that jumping from Tier 8 to Tier 2 is absurd, know that it isn't.

With existing feats and lore explanations, any jump in power is acceptable. Don't forget that plenty of verses have 10-B characters becoming 1-A.

 

[Verivici]

I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.

The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.

It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.

The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.
It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

We can't ignore them as we'd be ingoring 90% of the game's feats.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.

The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.
It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

In the fight against Asriel who is a 2-A and omnipresent, his attacks move like molasses while San's gaster blasters move faster than all other attacks in the game, so what are we gonna do, make Sans omnipresent?

 

[Verivici]

I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.

The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.
It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

We can't ignore them as we'd be ingoring 90% of the game's feats.

But we have to, as it has been shown several times that they are very loose interpretations of what is happening in reality. If you get hit by one of undyne's spears during one of those chase sequences, do they suddenly split into a massive rain and hail down on u you for several seconds? No.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can we at least have the 8-C to At least 8-B ranking based on the fact a character can drop bombs, or can shoot lightning, the Mettaton bomb and plenty of stronger chars?

 

[Verivici]

Most of these feats are unquantifable, we don't know how many bombs Tsunderplane drops nor what type they are. Maybe someone should ask Toby Fox on twitter what they are?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Yes.

 

[Verivici]

OK. How about we ask something like this: "What type of bomb are Tsunderplane's bombs? I'm just kinda curious."

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Lightning is a large building level feat.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

But we have to, as it has been shown several times that they are very loose interpretations of what is happening in reality. If you get hit by one of undyne's spears during one of those chase sequences, do they suddenly split into a massive rain and hail down on u you for several seconds? No.

If we do that, we're literally ignoring a good amount of the game's feats. We learn about the characters and their powers from the game itself. Same goes for turn based RPG's and such.

Do you think the enemy is just waiting for you to use an item or attack in real time? No.

Do you think the characters just stand there and get hit by the attacks all the time? No.

Ignoring the gameplay battle is ignoring everything about how the fights in that world work .We wouldn't know about Sans' powers, Papyrus' powers, Undyne's powers, or anyone's for that matter. We would literally go all the way back to square one and have all the profiles at Unknown because we can't scale anything from the gameplay battles.

 

[Verivici]

It likely only lasts for a tiny fraction of a second outside of the bullet board.

We simply cannot quantify UT characters, my idea is all we can get sadly

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well, I guess all the lower and top tiers would have to be all Unknown, and thus unusable in vs battles then.

Edit: I mean, if we can't quantify them might as well remove the profiles then :/

Undertale heavily relies on its gameplay system to explain how its world works so ignoring it would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Also, I'm pretty sure time moves normally in the bullet box unless said otherwise.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes we can quantify them. I have listed several building level feats. Even if we don't know what bombs they are, lowballing is building level. Vulkin's lightining would be around that,and Mettaton's bomb as well. Tier 8-B Undertale.

 

[Verivici]

Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?

There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?
There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

I've seen footage and playthroughs of the game. Also, what about times like the battles with Papyrus and Undyne? Is that mean their fights last in a millisecond or something because of the bullet board then? Also, the Undyne chase wasn't really any issue about time, just a different attack than what was shown. It wasn't even an actual fight. In fact, majority of game battles don't reflect real time, you can beat a boss in 5 minutes but the game would make it seem like hours.

Again, Undertale relies on its gameplay to explain how battles and abilities work in that world. Ignoring it would meaning 90% of feats would be invalid.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Yes we can quantify them. I have listed several building level feats. Even if we don't know what bombs they are, lowballing is building level. Vulkin's lightining would be around that,and Mettaton's bomb as well.
Tier 8-B Undertale.

That's good to know. But how do we know Mettaton's bomb would be that powerful if it never went off?

 

[Verivici]

Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?
There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

I've seen fottage and playthorughs of the game. Also, what about times like the battles with Papyrus and Undyne? Is that mean their fights last in a millisecond or something? Also, the Undyne chase wasn't really any issue about time, just a different attack than what was shown. It wasn't even an actual fight.

When you get hit by one of her spears in that chase sequence, you get a short Bullet Board scene where hundreds of spears rain down on u. Did that spear split into hundreds? No. And I have several more examples of the difference between bullet board reality and real reality. And those could have taken 1 min or like several hours, we can't quantify them because we don't have a non-bullet board timeframe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

HIT. Don't assume that those who disagree with you haven't played the game. It's fallacious and unneeded. Undyne's spear isn't real time, but the fights are. Frisk has conversations with his opponents in them.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

When you get hit by one of her spears in that chase sequence, you get a short Bullet Board scene where hundreds of spears rain down on u. Did that spear split into hundreds? No. And I have several more examples of the difference between bullet board reality and real reality. And those could have taken 1 min or like several hours, we can't quantify them because we don't have a non-bullet board timeframe.

I know how that attack works, I've seen it lots of times. The ones that come from the ground can't do that, but the one she throws possibly can split apart. If they're more examples, what are they then? Also, hundreds is exaggerating a bit, there weren't that many coming at you.

 

[Verivici]

Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.

But anyway: here are examples of bullet board not matching reality: When u spare sans, he hugs u and uses a bone attack on while he's doing so, which is represented by an undodgeable bone attack. He didn't ACTUALLY whip out a magical undodgeable attack, that's just a representation of it being undodgeable.

At the end of the game with Flowey, did he use a magical undodgeable attack which it is physically impossible to miss? No, that's just a representation of the fact that he's trapped u.

It seems like the BB represents the area in which u can move. Maybe it would be an idea to scale the explosions caused by TP's bombs to the area in which Frisk could logically move?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.

The thing is though, while not an exact representation, it still can possibly be real time. Like what Matthew said, Frisk has conversations with their opponents, and unless everything is happening so fast the conversatons all happen in a microsecond. The battles against Mettaton for example had many of the Underground watching the fight, it had to be real time in order for everyone to watch it, even the non combat able monsters. You also need to do various acts like petting and playing with the Dogs, the game gives you a message for each act explaining how you do them in each battle.

 

[Verivici]

Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.

The thing is though, while not an exact representation, it still can possibly be real time. Like what Matthew said, Frisk has conversations with their opponents, and unless everything is happening so fast the conversatons all happen in a microsecond. The battles against Mettaton for example had many of the Underground watching the fight, it had to be real time in order for everyone to watch it, even the non combat able monsters.

I'm not saying it happened in a microsecond, just that the timeframes are different.

Does anyone think my Toby Fox idea might be good?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

MarvelFanatic further elaborated my point. They often have to be in real time. Furthermore, I'm lowballing all feats and we still get Tier 8-B Undertale.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I'm not saying it happened in a microsecond, just that the timeframes are different.

Does anyone think my Toby Fox idea might be good?

But don't people call Mettaton DURING the battle right after he says he'll take callers? Unless the whole Underground was sucked into that fight too (which sounds even more ridiculous), it needed to happen in real time in order for that to be possible.

Well, when in doubt, ask the Creator to help out.

 

[Verivici]

I am not saying it takes place completely outside of real time, just that the timeframes FOR ATTACKS are different and NOT to an extremely large amount or something.

So everyone's on board with that TF idea?

 

[Verivici]

What about Undyne and those lasers?

But that's a moot point, I think the Toby Fox thing would be a good idea.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But don't people call Mettaton DURING the battle right after he says he'll take callers?

They do. Mettaton's fight, along with several other important ones, very clearly happen in real time and not a fraction of a second.

Anyway, you can ask Toby about this stuff, though I don't know how quickly you'll get an answer.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What about Undyne and those lasers?

You know, I actually completely forgot Frisk can just walk through and dodge the lasers, if they so choose. It's just annoying and takes way too long.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I am not saying it takes place completely outside of real time, just that the timeframes FOR ATTACKS are different and NOT to an extremely large amount or something.
So everyone's on board with that TF idea?

If it's not to a very large degree, then the timeframe won't affect the calc that much then unless it was shown otherwise. Non combat monsters can see everything in the Mettaton fights happening fine so there's no need to assume the timeframe is any different then.

Also, didn't you earlier stated:

"It likely only lasts for a tiny fraction of a second outside of the bullet board."

Forgive me but I assume you meant a HUGE time difference in the bullet board from this statement you said.

 

[Verivici]

Hold on I'm confused.

Disregard that statement I made. All I mean is that attacks may be different in reality than in the bullet board.

I, being the Luddite I am, don't have a Twitter account unfortunately? Someone else here willing to do it?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hold on I'm confused.
Disregard that statement I made. All I mean is that attacks may be different in reality than in the bullet board.

In certain fights, yes. In others, no. For example, in the Mettaton fight, the bullet board is clearly the exact same reality and not just a visual representation of things happening. In fact, Mettaton's heart fires electricity directly into the box, implying no real difference between the two spaces. This seems to be true for most boss fights, but not for a lot of regular enemy fights.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Can't. On phone.

 

[Lina_Shields]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

The bombs that were released during Tsunderplane's attacks may be these bombs as these bombs were used during conventional bombing and warfare. With regards to Matt's suggestions that Undertale's tiering may be lower than Island level, we can find out number of bombs that were dropped during Tsunderplane's attack, therefore determine Tsunderplane's tiering.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs
The bombs that were released during Tsunderplane's attacks may be these bombs as these bombs were used during conventional bombing and warfare. With regards to Matt's suggestions that Undertale's tiering may be lower than Island level, we can find out number of bombs that were dropped during Tsunderplane's attack, therefore determine Tsunderplane's tiering.

Having them be Father of All Bombs is fairly reasonable in my opinion, and I agree with it.

However, just because one can throw a 1,000 Punch combo, does not place said person in the Tier the combined Energy Output all those punches would generate. Similarly, just because Tsunderplane can drop many bombs, doesn't mean she should have a Higher Tiering.

8-B Tsunderplane, Papyrus and whoever scales, 8-A for High Tiers is good.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah i'm fine with what Matt putted.

Kind of wish we could use something that's more powerful than the FOAB's but this is probably what we have to go then, huh?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, there goes Undyne's wins...

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Matt: If that is the case, those bombs look a lot more like these guys , judging by the shape of them.

Personally, I am okay with Small Town level Tsunderplane. Considering that Tsunderplane drops these bombs without abandon however, each of those bombs might even be a casual attack that he flings out without even trying.

Therefore, town level Tsunderplane sounds okay to me as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Really wouldn't be surprising, considering an enemy almost immediately after makes miniature suns.