Broly and the Dragon Ball Cosmology.

[Warren_Valion]

I recently re-watched the Broly movie, and the backstory of the movie is that Broly had almost completely destroyed the entirety of the Southern Galaxy before the start of the movie and that Broly would continue to do so to the other cardinal galaxies unless he was stopped.

Since the Wiki has recently done away with the only four galaxies in Dragon Ball being applied to the Anime and GT as shown in this thread. And has taken to the cardinal galaxies actually being quadrants of the universe.

I was wondering if this would mean that Broly is more impressive than originally believed? Would this viewpoint of the cosmology change how we see Broly's strength?

Argument:

Restricted Super Saiyan Broly doesn't destroy a single galaxy over time. He destroyed a majority of the Southern Galaxy which is an entire quadrant of the Dragon Ball Universe's Living World.

Proof of the Southern Galaxy being a the southern quadrant of the universe:


Ignore the white arrow and circle.


Proof of Broly destroying the Southern Galaxy:













With the cosmology altered, Broly should get a proportional increase in strength.


Objection:

"Broly can't be this strong because Toeiverse scaling."

My Rebuttal:

Why is Toeiverse scaling a thing?

What logic is there to scale feats from the anime to the movies and vice versa? Just because Toei Animation animated both media means that they must share a level of consistency in their power levels and feats? That sounds quite fallacious to me.

The Manga is the Manga, the Anime the Anime, the games the games, and the movies are the movies. They are all there own separate thing with there own separate scaling.

The movies have always had inconsistent power scaling from the Anime. Like Goku in the Tree of Might movie has a power level of 30,000 despite this being a Goku between the Saiyan Saga and Frieza Saga. Goku in the Saiyan Saga only has a power level of over 8000 and Goku when he arrives on Namek had a power level of 90,000. And I know, I know. "Power levels are bullshit", but still it helps prove my point with the inconsistent scaling.

Proof of difference in scaling:

Movie:





Anime:





While Goku in the Frieza Saga was not stated in the Anime or Manga to have a power level of 90,000. He was stated to have a power level of 180,000 when utilizing Kaio-Ken, a power multiplier which increases every aspect of a person's physical capabilities by a base multiplier of two times.

And that is not all, there is more proof in later movies that show more inconsistencies with the Anime.

There is a pivotal scene in Dragon Ball Movie 13 Fusion Rebor. The scene is where Goku lets loose all of his hidden power and transforms into Super Saiyan 3. In this climactic moment, Goku's transformation's shockwaves shake, not only the area around him, but Grand Kai's Planet. Which is on the opposite end of the Other World from where Goku was at the moment of his transformation.

Goku's Transformation:


Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 in Fusion Reborn-0


Location of Grand Kai's Planet:




So in other words, Goku's power shook the entirety of the Other World, a Universe-sized reality.

This is another example of the movies and the Anime having different scaling, as in the Anime and Manga, Goku going Super Saiyan 3 only shook planet earth, while in the movie he shook a universe-sized reality.


Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 For The First Time HD 1080p


Conclusion:

Broly destroyed a quadrant of the universe in his movie, and I believe this would warrant a much higher rating. And any inconsistencies because of "muh Toeiverse scaling" is rendered null and void as it is something that shouldn't exist and that the movie's feats should be judged separately from the Anime.


Well, I don't know what else to say. I think I explained everything I wanted to.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

To be completely honest I'm not sure.

The thing is that what Broly destroyed was explicitly stated to be a singular galaxy. The Daizenshuu states them as quadrants so if they said the southern quadrant then he could have been upgraded.

That's my take on it.

 

[Golden_Void]

It was just a single galaxy but even in the movie they showed a younger Broly going from planet to planet iirc.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It was just a single galaxy but even in the movie they showed a younger Broly going from planet to planet iirc.

I totally forgot about this thread, so sorry about that.

Anyway... While a galaxy was shown to be destroyed in the opening shot of the movie, Broly's destructive habits were stated to not be limited to just a singular galaxy. In fact, Broly was stated to have almost completely destroyed the entirety of the Southern Galaxy -as in the Southern Quadrant of the universe- before the events of the Movie. Not to mention this is all in his Restrained Super Saiyan form.




While you might say that this is simple hyperbole; King Kai later goes and states: "....even my Northern Galaxy will be destroyed!"




This indicates that after the complete ahniliation of the Southern Galaxy; Broly would contiune his merciless destruction of the universe upon the Northern Galaxy as well (and most likely the other Galaxies too if all the statements about how if they "didn't stop Broly, the entire universe would be in jeopardy" have any merit)

And unlike beings like Buu, Broly has a very finite amount of time to accomplish such a feat. Broly as a Saiyan has a few hundred years at the most to destroy the entirety of the universe.


So... I reiterate that I am quite curious as to if this site's understanding of the DB universe's scale currently would effect Broly's speed and strength?

 

[IkaniL]

I think this is reasonable. The movies are very wild with scaling and feats anyway.

 

[Dark649]

RSS Broly destroyed a galaxy over time and was going to ruin another if given time, so he should be on the above mid reach of 4-A while Kid Buu who is much stronger then the latter is 4-A close to the higher end with the stronger GT characters being 3-C, this is the Toeiverse scaling at this point.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Dark.

 

[Promestein]

Universe shaking is not 3-B to 3-A

 

[Warren_Valion]

Universe shaking is not 3-B to 3-A

Really?

I just assumed it would be, because you know, shaking the universe and all.

But you know what they say about assuming, and I'm not a calc guy so I'll get rid of it.

I'm curious though, what would it be then?

 

[Dark649]

4-B to 4-A at best, but it's against the discussion rules to discuss about that feat.

 

[Ryukama]

There is nothing illegitamate about the Fusion Reborn feat. It's just shaking a universe isn't as impressive as many think.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Bump.

 

[DodoNova2]

according to the guide show, the universe is composed of only 4 galaxy so to destroy a quadrant of a universe having the size of 4 galaxy is only 3-C
In addition, Shake the Universe is 4-B
Regarding Broly, I have no problem to put Galaxy level unless the destruction of the galaxy is not immediate (it's been a long time since I did not watch the film so IDK

 

[Warren_Valion]

according to the guide show, the universe is composed of only 4 galaxy so to destroy a quadrant of a universe having the size of 4 galaxy is only 3-C
In addition, Shake the Universe is 4-B
Regarding Broly, I have no problem to put Galaxy level unless the destruction of the galaxy is not immediate (it's been a long time since I did not watch the film so IDK

I linked to a thread that showed that we don't believe in the 4-galaxy size Universe anymore.

Ryukama himself debunked it.

And Broly destroyed most of the quadrant during the entirety of his life, so it is not immediate.


Also, what is the "guide show"?

 

[DodoNova2]

so Broly has only destroyed a galaxy overtime, it's still 4-A

 

[Warren_Valion]

so Broly has only destroyed a galaxy overtime, it's still 4-A

He destroyed the South Galaxy, which is the South Quadrant of the Universe sized dimension that is the Living World in Dragon Ball.

This was all stated in the OP. Did you not read it?

I'll quote myself: "Since the Wiki has recently done away with the only four galaxies in Dragon Ball being applied to the Anime and GT as shown in this thread. And has taken to the cardinal galaxies actually being quadrants of the universe."

Four-galaxy sized universe in Dragon Ball is gone from VS Battle Wiki.

I'll quote Ryukama's debunk:

"

I personally think that 4 galaxies are silly. We're so anal about what's canon in DB and what outside guides/sources to use. Yet this one guidebook statement where nearly all the other information from the guidebook we adamantly deny that isn't supported elsewhere we base the entire cosmology of GT off of. And we would've based the entirety of DBZ and Super had Super not debunked this beyond any reasonable doubt, which we called a "retcon", when really it's more like the series never had just 4 galaxies 'to' begin with. Plus this same guidebook also claims the DB universe is infinite. Cherrypicking one part out of a source we deemed as noncanon to support an argument that the other part completely debunks is very disingenous in my opinion.

"

"

PART 2:

"

"A local collection of stars and planets in outer space. A nebula is a collection of stars and planets, and in turn a collection of several nebulae is called a galaxy. Being responsible for the north/south/east/west, the four Kaios in practice oversee these galaxies. The divides between north/south/east/west galaxies are units which the celestial gods and Kaios produced for occupational purposes, in order to unify the galaxies which exist infinitely in outer space"

"

"

^ A statement which not only calls North, South, East and West sections of galaxies, but also claims infinite galaxies. Why is 4 galaxies based on this guide again?

"

PART 3:

"

Universe also stated to be endless and expansive Statements of innumerable stars and nebulae with galaxies made of said things The mortal realm stated to resemble reality Mortal realm stated to be based off the actual universe As such there are endless celestial bodies 4 galaxy Dragon Ball is the VS debate equivalent of flat earth.

"

I also agree with Ryukama.

 

[DodoNova2]

Hmm i see

Nope I was too lazy to read

It's strange because the destruction of the galaxy is show in the movie so you suppose that the galaxy has a size of about 1/4 of the universe?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Hmm i see
Nope I was too lazy to read

It's strange because the destruction of the galaxy is show in the movie so you suppose that the galaxy has a size of about 1/4 of the universe?

Well, galaxies are sometimes meant to represent something that isn't a galaxy in fiction.

Examples:

Dragon Ball:

This is a universe but looks like a galaxy.




Men in Black:


Man in black - ending HD-0

While it might look like a galaxy inside those marbles, the Men in Black script reveals that it is in fact, a universe.


The script.


It doesn't really make sense visually, but it does sometimes happen.

 

[Kepekley23]

Broly never destroyed the entire Southern Galaxy.

To this day, I still believe he only went around destroying planetary civilizations as opposed to planets and stars. Herms himself has said this.

But, even without taking that into account, the presence of a starry sky suggests thousands of light years are left.

 

[Theglassman12]

King Kai did say that most of it was gone. So yeah he didn't destroy everything in the south galaxy.

 

[Kepekley23]

You also left out '''all''' of the scans that outright state the South Galaxy wasn't destroyed.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Broly never destroyed the entire Southern Galaxy.
To this day, I still believe he only went around destroying planetary civilizations as opposed to planets and stars. Herms himself has said this.

But, even without taking that into account, the presence of a starry sky suggests thousands of light years are left.

I said he destroyed most of the South Galaxy. Mainly because of the reasons you stated.

"To this day, I still believe he only went around destroying planetary civilizations as opposed to planets and stars. Herms himself has said this."

If Broly really did go around destroying just planets and civilizations instead of planets, stars, and galaxies, then he probably should be downgraded to "Unknown At least (What every the tier he is for the planet he blew up in the movie is), likely far higher".

 

[Warren_Valion]

You also left out all of the scans that outright state the South Galaxy wasn't destroyed.

What scans say that the South Galaxy wasn't destroyed?

 

[Kepekley23]

The statement that immediately follows the "he's already finished tearing up the South Galaxy" scan, which reads "First, go check the South Galaxy"

 

[Warren_Valion]

The statement that immediately follows the "he's already finished tearing up the South Galaxy" scan, which reads "First, go check the South Galaxy"

Again, I said he destroyed most of the South Galaxy.

Broly "teared it up" and made the South Galaxy "fall". This doesn't mean he's destroyed it in its entirety, but a majority of the galaxy, if King Kai's fears of the Northern Galaxy being next had any merit as it would likely mean that Broly is almost done with the South Galaxy.


Edit: Also, I don't know how to screenshot my own scans, and I only have available scans on the internet, so I might not have the one you are mentioning within my grasp, and I don't know if I can find it via Google search.

 

[Kepekley23]

There's zero indication the South Galaxy is any bigger than an average galaxy in the movie, other than the Daizenshuu, which we ignore when it touches this subject since it's self-contradictory.

 

[Kepekley23]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6536/41fcd579956dbe7b146dcdf720202ebad27002c6_hq.jpg

 

[Warren_Valion]

There's zero indication the South Galaxy is any bigger than an average galaxy in the movie, other than the Daizenshuu, which we ignore when it touches this subject since it's self-contradictory.

I was under the belief that in your thread and Ryukama's debunk stated that galaxy-sized quadrants never existed in the first place.

" I personally think that 4 galaxies are silly. We're so anal about what's canon in DB and what outside guides/sources to use. Yet this one guidebook statement where nearly all the other information from the guidebook we adamantly deny that isn't supported elsewhere we base the entire cosmology of GT off of. And we would've based the entirety of DBZ and Super had Super not debunked this beyond any reasonable doubt, which we called a "retcon", when really it's more like the series never had just 4 galaxies to begin with.' Plus this same guidebook also claims the DB universe is infinite. Cherrypicking one part out of a source we deemed as noncanon to support an argument that the other part completely debunks is very disingenous in my opinion.

"

"

To this and the rest of Ryukama's statements, you said: "I also agree with Ryukama."


Was I in fact, mistaken?

 

[Warren_Valion]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6536/41fcd579956dbe7b146dcdf720202ebad27002c6_hq.jpg

Oh, okay. Thank you, I guess.

I'm saying I agree with you if you don't get what I mean. Am I not being clear?

 

[Kepekley23]

I said we don't use the Daizenshuu in the same post you quoted. It's the only thing binding 4 galaxies together. So I obviously disagree with a 4-galaxy only universe for DBZ.

There is really no evidence the South Galaxy referred to in Movie 8 is any bigger than the average galaxy. Nothing in the movie says this; the Daizenshuu treats it as a normal galaxy in the scan you posted, so even if we used it, it wouldn't really prove anything.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I said we don't use the Daizenshuu in the same post you quoted. It's the only thing binding 4 galaxies together. So I obviously disagree with a 4-galaxy only universe for DBZ.
There is really no evidence the South Galaxy referred to in Movie 8 is any bigger than the average galaxy. Nothing in the movie says this; the Daizenshuu treats it as a normal galaxy in the scan you posted, so even if we used it, it wouldn't really prove anything.

Are you talking about this scan?:




I added this scan to explain the basic cosmology of DB, and not an accurate decription of how big the size of the universe is. I was saying that the South Galaxy is the southern part of the universe. I can see how my wording can be confusing.

I'll change it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The heavily controversial feat of Broly destroying a Galaxy.

He may not have destroyed the galaxy in one blast, but...

We know some things for certain:
1. He destroyed most of it.


2. He did it in a relative amount of time.

It's illogical to think that King Kai waited decades to let Goku know what was happening.

3. Writers don't give a F*** about science.

We see the Galaxy spinning, it would be scientifically impossible for a galaxy to be spinning that fast in that amount of time, but then again it isn't really possible for anything to go Faster Than Light according to science. It's not that Science doesn't apply to fiction, it's that science doesn't usually limit fiction.


Now for the feat:

It's highly unlikely that he actually destroyed the Galaxy in one shot, because he had been attacking places since he was a teenager.

But we do know he destroyed a good portion of it in a relative amount of time to King Kai.

oh here's where the numbers come in.

So far, astronomers have found more than 500+ (outdated information) solar systems and are discovering new ones every year. Given how many they have found in our own neighborhood of the Milky Way galaxy, scientists estimate that there may be tens of billions of solar systems in our galaxy, perhaps even as many as 100 billion.


Conclusion A:

Broly destroyed over 100,000,000,000 Solar Systems in a single blast. [Unlikely]

Conclusion B:

Broly destroyed over 100,000,000,000 Solar Systems over the time period of a year.

273,972,602 Solar Systems a day on an average

Conclusion C:

Broly destroyed over 100,000,000,000 Solar Systems over a decade.

10 Billion Solar systems a year on average

27,397,260 Solar systems a day on average.

Conclusion D:

Broly destroyed over 100,000,000,000 over 40 years (his lifespan) (bare minimum)

2500000000 Solar Systems a year on average.

6,849,315 Solar Systems a day on average.

Misc. Properties of the feat:

1. Broly must have MFTL+ Travel Speed and Reaction Speed.

2. It's likely he tanked a few of the stars he sent Supernova, and other celestial bodies.

3. He can survive in space.

Misconceptions:
"Broly lost to an amped SSJ1, Broly is fodder."


Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo and Vegeta gave Goku all there energy, Goku transferred all that energy into Broly, causing him to overload. This is evident in the fact that Broly starts glowing and cracking the explodes.

"Broly lost to rusty SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ1 Goten and Goku."

First, in Movieverse Gohan wasn't "rusty".


He was considerably stronger.

Secondly, the simple answer is it was PIS. Nobody was able to harm Broly yet suddenly they vaporize him? Simple PIS.

Conclusion:
No matter how you slice it, you can't call this an outlier since Bojack and Hatchiyak also did similar things, and the film maker said Broly is 2nd to only Janemba in movie antagonists (exclusing BOG, and ROF movies.). The feat is massive no matter which way you interpret it.

This would scale to other movies as well because the movie with Hatchiyak stated directly "Hatchiyak is even stronger than (1st movie) Broly."

Bojack already had devestated portions of the south galaxy

Janemba movie connects every movie together as we see paragus, salza, Turle's companions, bojack is seen, and other movie characters get linked by that movie.

Imo, i agree with the "South Galaxy = Southern Quadrant." but i am just using low-endness for "What if it was truly only 1 galaxy"

 

[DMB_1]

bump

 

[Kepekley23]

And the film maker said Broly is 2nd to only Janemba

False. That statement was about Hirudegarn.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It was more or less specifically a thing that every DB movie villain is stronger than the last one (At least, the ones Goku fought). So, stuff like Hirudegarn > Janemba > Broly, etc.

Which falls right in line with Hirudegarn's feats, fittingly enough.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

I would highly disagree with 3-B Belly and Im iffy on a 3-C Broly, But I DEFINATELY agree with a solid 4- A Broly, as a matter of fact I've always personally believed that Broly is 4-A in the first place.

 

[Kepekley23]

I'm not talking about what the writer of the movies said, but a statement in the official Toei website that suggested Janemba was > Hirudegarn

 

[The_Everlasting]

Onto this thread's main topic.

What's it even about? I'm kinda lost.

 

[Dark649]

Super Janemba should be on similar terms to Super Buu, Transformed Hirudergarn easily defeated SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, so he should not that far from Buutenks.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Ever

Broly being 3-B due to the Southern Galaxy not being an actual galaxy.

To be honest, I don't even agree with 4-A Broly, since Herms has stated he was destroying civilizatons, but whatever.