Break Through It All! Low 2-C Modern Base Sonic CRT

[CloverDragon03]

No one is saying it isn't an endurance feat. But endurance alone doesn't let you go unharmed from being cut in half by a power that is infinitely above you. If a nuclear bomb went off, and you survived it, but were injured but still able to get up, that's endurance AND downscaling. Endurance only means the ability to keep fighting with injuries. So endurance wouldn't let you survive a nuke. You'd be reduced to ash.

This

It's both endurance and durability

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Agree with the upgrades.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Mark me as agree as well, the logic is sound and the scaling and feats are consistent for Low 2-C Sonic so I see no reason not to say yes.
We inch closer to Game Sonic rivaling Archie Sonic in power, just need some Tier 1 stuff from the games and it'll be complete.

We have them 1-1 in base and near equals in speed

 

[Theuser789]

She literally has another form, her Queen of the Underworld form,

Her Queen of the Underworld form is just Merlina (with the scabbard) using her full power. Which is what I was talking about in my previous post. If you actually look into the profile, you will see that she only has two keys, not three. Please, don't try to act like you're knowledgeble while getting basic stuff about the game wrong. It hurts your credibility.

You call other people's disagreements "screeching otherwise," which is very disingenuous, and could easily be reversed onto you.

I am not saying it as an insult. It's just that posts without any arguments don't add anything to the discussion, and many people are commenting here because they really want tier 2 base Sonic at any cost.

A character shutting their eyes for a moment due to being hit by an attack and hitting the ground is a very common thing. That's not falling unconscious. His eyes are literally open and he's screaming as he falls, before he hits the ground and thus shuts his eyes for a moment, then gets back up immediately.

"As he falls", yes. And then when he hits the ground, he falls down motionless in the ground. The moment I quoted isn't the only time that happens in this fight either.

It doesn't do so at all, because Sonic is still very much inferior to her, and despite surviving all her attacks, he can't measure up to her with his own power - and yet even still, he refuses to give up, which is what enables Excalibur to come about.

Because by "downscaling" Sonic, you are putting Sonic at the same tier as her when that clearly isn't the case.

I am not going to adress the other arguments because they are circular argument. It's just you repeating the same argument of "tier differences would mean Sonic would have to explode into a million atoms with a single hit if he didn't scale", which I already adressed as the writers in Sonic not writing scenes thinking on tier differences of a nerdy internet forum.

Not a single confrontation in Sonic is writen with the thought of "wow, this guy is gazillions times stronger than Sonic, I need to show Sonic dying instantly by his casual slap!". This is why you have Knuckles surviving hits from Super Mecha, Eggman surviving hits from Perfect Chaos, Tails tanking a hit from Time Eater in Generations 3DS, Sonic being able to survive several hits from KNIGHT and WYVERN (GIGANTO is the only Titan that stomps Sonic), any super form interaction with a base character in IDW (Super Neo versus Sonic and Knuckles? Egg Fleet versus Burning Blaze? Zavok surviving a blitz from two super forms?) and etc. And everything I mentioned is just like Sonic fighting Merlina where the characters didn't get one-shot.

I will only be replying stuff that isn't a circular argument from now on to avoid the thread to go for pages and pages on this minor point. I already expressed my disagreement with that point, now to wait for staff.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Her Queen of the Underworld form is just Merlina (with the scabbard) using her full power. Which is what I was talking about in my previous post. If you actually look into the profile, you will see that she only has two keys, not three. Please, don't try to act like you're knowledgeble while getting basic stuff about the game wrong. It hurts your credibility.

Thank you for clarifying, but the snarky attitude is wholly unnecessary, especially when that one thing doesn't change everything else I've argued. I will not "act" like anything, I will continue to argue with the knowledge I have, thank you very much.

I am not saying it as an insult. It's just that posts without any arguments don't add anything to the discussion, and many people are commenting here because they really want tier 2 base Sonic at any cost.

You're assuming motives so that you can rationalize why people are disagreeing with you. People can just have legitimate reasons to disagree with you

"As he falls", yes. And then when he hits the ground, he falls down motionless in the ground. The moment I quoted isn't the only time that happens in this fight either.

Yeah, shutting your eyes is a response to recoiling in pain. Falling unconscious would mean he's completely unresponsive for a period of time, rather than immediately getting back up.

Because by "downscaling" Sonic, you are putting Sonic at the same tier as her when that clearly isn't the case.

Two characters can be in the same tier and one can be vastly superior to the other. Hell, this is even the case with tiers of finite power, like 4-B, due to the massive gap between the bottom of the tier and the top of the tier. So no, Merlina overpowering him doesn't show that them being in the same tier "clearly isn't the case"

As for the rest, I won't even get into it, as I feel the case with Merlina is a different matter due to the sheer number of attacks she was doing, all of which Sonic was able to withstand. This post will be my last post on the matter, and I will wait for staff to provide input.

 

[JJSliderman]

Just because I was using Griffin argument doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I don't know why you even thought of using that as a gotcha moment.

Because it IS endurace, and people screeching otherwise won't change that. Sonic couldn't hit her once, got extremely beaten up and his weapon destroyed. He was staying up via pure will. This is show in the game, with the Knights of the Round Table telling Sonic to give up, and he refusing. That's the reason Excalibur even awakened in the first place. Because of Sonic's resolve. Most people that are saying it's not endurance either haven't played the game, or don't remember it very well or just really want to Sonic be Low 2-C. You, for one, haven't played the game and thought Merlina had another form, even.

Sonic does go unconscious. He just rises up again, and again out of sheer will. That's the point of Excalibur in the first place.

Downscaling Sonic from that scene is literally ignoring the entire message of said scene just to change the number in Sonic's tier. That's why I am going to disagree with this point.

That’s just him being knocked down. If he was actually unconscious I imagine he wouldn’t have gotten up like 4-5 seconds later.
Plus Merlina is deriving her power from the scabbard just like Arthur was, and Sonic beat someone with the scabbard, so downscaling has some precedent.

 

[Theuser789]

Falling unconscious would mean he's completely unresponsive for a period of time, rather than immediately getting back up.

He was unresponsive for a period of time. Factually.

Plus Merlina is deriving her power from the scabbard just like Arthur was, and Sonic beat someone with the scabbard, so downscaling has some precedent.

This is backwards scaling. You're justifying Sonic downscaling from Merlina using another feat, rather than create for it. You're going backwards from the conclusion to the premise.

but the snarky attitude is wholly unnecessary, especially when that one thing doesn't change everything else I've argued.

There's no snarky attitude here. In fact, the only attitude here I'm sensing is your weirdly agressive/defensive one that has accused me several times in this discussion. You haven't played Black Knight. This isn't being snarky, this is a fact.

As for the rest, I won't even get into it, as I feel the case with Merlina is a different matter due to the sheer number of attacks she was doing, all of which Sonic was able to withstand. This post will be my last post on the matter, and I will wait for staff to provide input.

No, you're running away from evidence. All the examples I listed are "several attacks", too. Super Mecha can hit Knuckles several times, Eggman tanks a direct hit that destroyed the Egg Carrier 2, Tails takes a direct hit from Time Eater, Sonic can take several hits from KNIGHT and WYVERN. In IDW, Sonic and Knuckles take several hits from Super Neo. These are all valid and comparable to Merlina. You can't just close your eyes and ignore the arguments.

 

[JJSliderman]

Thanks for providing ammo for the eventual Super Sonic downscaling thread

 

[CloverDragon03]

He was unresponsive for a period of time. Factually.

A singular second. This is not unconsciousness. Now you're just splitting hairs

There's no snarky attitude here. In fact, the only attitude here I'm sensing is your weirdly agressive/defensive one that has accused me several times in this discussion. You haven't played Black Knight. This isn't being snarky, this is a fact.

Denial of it won't change that, saying stuff like "don't act like your knowledgeable" over me getting one thing wrong, as if trying to undermine all my arguments because of that. Again, I will argue with what I know. Yeah, I didn't know the Queen of the Underworld form was just the form she basically takes when she's attacking Sonic and nothing more. Doesn't undermine the rest of what I'm saying

No, you're running away from evidence. All the examples I listed are "several attacks", too. Super Mecha can hit Knuckles several times, Eggman tanks a direct hit that destroyed the Egg Carrier 2, Tails takes a direct hit from Time Eater, Sonic can take several hits from KNIGHT and WYVERN. In IDW, Sonic and Knuckles take several hits from Super Neo. These are all valid and comparable to Merlina. You can't just close your eyes and ignore the arguments.

Two of your examples are a direct hit rather than several, so they're not comparable. Looking at Super Mecha Sonic and Super Neo Metal Sonic, they seem like instances of a potential downscale (though my main concern is that it'd be an outlier for the Adventure Era if it's in that Era [idk if it's Adventure or Modern], since the Adventure Era does not have the consistency of Low 2-C feats that the Modern Era does). As for Wyvern and Knight, I just find this very inconsistent within Frontiers, as the Titans are able to one-shot Base Sonic when his Super form runs out, for instance. I'd frankly just scrap this example, because of how inconsistent it is within Frontiers itself.

So yeah, I very much can address these. It's not running away from evidence, I simply see no point in getting into them

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Theuser789 Tone it down. You can present your point without trying to belittle the opposition.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Again, I'd rather wait for staff to weigh in on this, as I just know we're gonna be going in circles otherwise

 

[omegabronic]

Sonic does go unconscious.

source for him being unconcious? he gets up seconds after getting trowed into the ground

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Two of your examples are a direct hit rather than several, so they're not comparable. Looking at Super Mecha Sonic and Super Neo Metal Sonic, they seem like instances of a potential downscale (though my main concern is that it'd be an outlier for the Adventure Era if it's in that Era [idk if it's Adventure or Modern], since the Adventure Era does not have the consistency of Low 2-C feats that the Modern Era does).

Super Mecha is Classic Era (S3&K), Super Neo Metal is Modern Era (IDW Sonic Issue 10)

 

[CloverDragon03]

Super Mecha is Classic Era (S3&K), Super Neo Metal is Modern Era (IDW Sonic Issue 10)

So one's an outlier, the other could very much work for a downscale. Got it

Edit: Oh yeah, Super Mecha Sonic is definitely an outlier. It's not just Knuckles taking some hits from him, no he actually just straight up fights and defeats him. I wouldn't even include that point in the discussion because of this.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Speaking of Classic Sonic here.

@CloverDragon03 If the Low 2-C scaling starts with Shadow the Hedgehog (the game, not the character) then wouldn't Classic characters from Generations, Mania, and onward get Low 2-C scaling or is that a no? I mainly ask since outside the homing attack, I always assumed that Generations treated Classic and Modern Sonic as being roughly comparable.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Speaking of Classic Sonic here.

@CloverDragon03 If the Low 2-C scaling starts with Shadow the Hedgehog (the game, not the character) then wouldn't Classic characters from Generations, Mania, and onward get Low 2-C scaling or is that a no? I mainly ask since outside the homing attack, I always assumed that Generations treated Classic and Modern Sonic as being roughly comparable.

We treat Classic Sonic in Generations and Forces (basically, whenever he crosses over) as being amped via the distortions in time and shit. But regular old Classic Sonic (including Mania) has no scaling to this

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

So one's an outlier, the other could very much work for a downscale. Got it

Here's Super Neo Metal's entire appearance, if you wanna judge that. The form just appears in issues 9 and 10 if you wanna go find and read the entirety of the issues he's in for yourself

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

We treat Classic Sonic in Generations and Forces (basically, whenever he crosses over) as being amped via the distortions in time and shit. But regular old Classic Sonic (including Mania) has no scaling to this

Really? Unless I'm mistaken or I wasn't paying attention to the dialogue of Generations and Forces I mean could you blame me about not giving a piss about Forces? then I can't recall anything to suggest that Classic was being amped by distortions in time during Generations and Forces. But if this is the case then I understand why Classic wouldn't normally be Low 2-C without amps, though if and when the Low 2-C CRT here gets accepted then this amp shenanigans should be noted on Classic Sonic's profile if people question why he doesn't scale normally.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Here's Super Neo Metal's entire appearance, if you wanna judge that. The form just appears in issues 9 and 10 if you wanna go find and read the entirety of the issues he's in for yourself

Definitely worth a downscale imo

 

[CloverDragon03]

Really? Unless I'm mistaken or I wasn't paying attention to the dialogue of Generations and Forces I mean could you blame me about not giving a piss about Forces? then I can't recall anything to suggest that Classic was being amped by distortions in time during Generations and Forces. But if this is the case then I understand why Classic wouldn't normally be Low 2-C without amps, though if and when the Low 2-C CRT here gets accepted then this amp shenanigans should be noted on Classic Sonic's profile if people question why he doesn't scale normally.

Yeah I don't fully remember the exact reason off the top of my head, but I do know that we treat Classic Sonic as being amped during Generations and Forces

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess Low 2-C seems fine.

 

[Lonkitt]

The evidence here looks good to me. You can mark me for agreeing

Admittedly, point 4 does seem more like a hax thing that a flat out AP applicable thing (unless I’m missing more context, feel free to correct me), but that point was said in the OP to be more of a downscaling thing and the evidence that counts the most checks out

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Yeah I don't fully remember the exact reason off the top of my head, but I do know that we treat Classic Sonic as being amped during Generations and Forces

iirc, it's that he ADs up to Modern level when he's present in those games, but when he goes back, the timeline "course corrects" things back to how he should be, or smth like that. Omegabronic has stuff pertaining to that, if memory serves

 

[CloverDragon03]

iirc, it's that he ADs up to Modern level when he's present in those games, but when he goes back, the timeline "course corrects" things back to how he should be, or smth like that. Omegabronic has stuff pertaining to that, if memory serves

Ah, that makes sense

 

[omegabronic]

Speaking of Classic Sonic here.

@CloverDragon03 If the Low 2-C scaling starts with Shadow the Hedgehog (the game, not the character)

it doesn't anymore,

then wouldn't Classic characters from Generations, Mania, and onward get Low 2-C scaling or is that a no? I mainly ask since outside the homing attack, I always assumed that Generations treated Classic and Modern Sonic as being roughly comparable.

not really, that is retconed, classic from gens, mania and forces is just sonic's past and that's it, things still went basically the same way because the timeline "course corrected itself" into a point where all went inthe same basic way, sandboxes are being done to cover this retcon, so i ask for people to not try and do any scaling like this

 

[Brogeefrong]

it doesn't anymore,

So where does it start now

 

[CloverDragon03]

So where does it start now

It's exclusively Modern Era. Shadow the Hedgehog would cause it to bleed into the Adventure Era, which has nowhere near Modern Era's level of consistency

 

[JJSliderman]

This timeline course correcting thing sounds like a lot of headcanon but I guess, it’s not my place to judge

 

[Theuser789]

Denial of it won't change that, saying stuff like "don't act like your knowledgeable" over me getting one thing wrong, as if trying to undermine all my arguments because of that.

Bro, you literally haven't played the game, nor have you watched a playthrough. There's nothing wrong with saying you aren't knowledgeable when you well... Aren't. Especially when you make blatant mistakes. This shouldn't even make you angry, and yet you are anyways.

Two of your examples are a direct hit rather than several,

There's no difference between several and direct outside you making that up to fit your narrative on what's valid.

Looking at Super Mecha Sonic and Super Neo Metal Sonic, they seem like instances of a potential downscale (though my main concern is that it'd be an outlier for the Adventure Era if it's in that Era [idk if it's Adventure or Modern],

You complain about me "insulting" you for saying you aren't knowledgeable, and yet you don't even know where Super Mecha or Super Neo come from... Man, I don't even know what to say here.

Anyways, no, they aren't a downscale. The fact you're even using the "outlier" card when you think it is in the era you don't like shows your argument is bunk and just based on what you want Sonic to be.

As for Wyvern and Knight, I just find this very inconsistent within Frontiers, as the Titans are able to one-shot Base Sonic when his Super form runs out, for instance. I'd frankly just scrap this example, because of how inconsistent it is within Frontiers itself.

You say you are "adressing" the arguments, and yet the way you adress them is by saying they don't count by saying... Because they don't count. You can't just ignore Frontiers because "inconsistence". KNIGHT and WYVERN do not kill Sonic when a super form runs out, that's just GIGANTO. You just need to admit this "downscaling" argument doesn't work with Sonic.

@Theuser789 Tone it down. You can present your point without trying to belittle the opposition.

Show me where I am "belittling" Clover in this entire thread. Because saying he isn't very knowledgeable in this series when he shows he isn't... Is just a fact. When you are making an argument upgrading a character with lore as extensive as Sonic, you have to be knowledgeable on it to have your arguments hold ground, especially when you are arguing so fervently against someone who is knowledgeable. There's nothing "belittling" with this, dude.

 

[Theuser789]

source for him being unconcious? he gets up seconds after getting trowed into the ground

What do you even mean with source? The game? Sonic falls down on the ground motionless. It doesn't matter if it's "seconds" or not. The word you are looking for is "proof" instead of source.

 

[Theuser789]

he actually just straight up fights and defeats him. I wouldn't even include that point in the discussion because of this.

He defeats him by hitting his base form when he goes back to normal. That's why I included the point in the first place. Because everything I pointed out works as "downscaling" if you interpret it as you do the Merlina feat.

 

[Theuser789]

This timeline course correcting thing sounds like a lot of headcanon but I guess, it’s not my place to judge

I actually agree with you here. It feels like a way to justify low 2-C using Gens feats, but try to keep it in the modern era because it has to be in the modern era. I prefer either the split timeline or not using it.

 

[MysticMania]

This timeline course correcting thing sounds like a lot of headcanon but I guess, it’s not my place to judge

I agree.

 

[Alexander]

Wouldn't it be better to escalate classic sonic to that level and argue that because the timeline was changed by time eater, now classic sonic is much stronger than it was?

 

[MysticMania]

Wouldn't it be better to escalate classic sonic to that level and argue that because the timeline was changed by time eater, now classic sonic is much stronger than it was?

If Sonic is unaffected by alterations to time, as his resistances label, then the timeline changing shouldn't affect his power, if I'm understanding what you mean.

 

[Robo432343]

Show me where I am "belittling" Clover in this entire thread. Because saying he isn't very knowledgeable in this series when he shows he isn't... Is just a fact. When you are making an argument upgrading a character with lore as extensive as Sonic, you have to be knowledgeable on it to have your arguments hold ground, especially when you are arguing so fervently against someone who is knowledgeable. There's nothing "belittling" with this, dude.

you can keep debating without saying he isn't knowledgeable like wtf???

 

[MysticMania]

I would also say they're knowledgeable about this, if they're presenting all of this, and others who know of Sonic are saying "agree", to it.
It's also disrespectful to say someone isn't knowledgeable about something in VS, I feel.

 

[Alexander]

If Sonic is unaffected by alterations to time, as his resistances label, then the timeline changing shouldn't affect his power, if I'm understanding what you mean.

Rather than classic sonic, he evolved and was equal with his current version, and due to what happened to space-time due to time eater, now all enemies and characters are more powerful (except emeralds and god tiers, stay the same)

 

[MysticMania]

I appreciate the explanation. I don't agree with it, but still, thank you.

 

[JJSliderman]

Rather than classic sonic, he evolved and was equal with his current version, and due to what happened to space-time due to time eater, now all enemies and characters are more powerful (except emeralds and god tiers, stay the same)

In that case maybe Egg Blaster can be upgraded to Low 2-C, retroactively.