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Break Through It All! Low 2-C Modern Base Sonic CRT
- Thread starter CloverDragon03
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If this is applied, when should it start being applicable? Post-Battle?
GlaceonGamez471
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Given the Egg Dealer and Egg Breaker are brought up in point 8, I was assuming Shadow's game onwards
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Shadow the hedgehog the game onwards
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GlaceonGamez471
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ShakeResounding
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As a long-time supporter of Sonic on VSBW, this upgrade is... quite the pill to swallow. Likely the most well-sourced and concise thread regarding upgrading Base Sonic to Low 2-C thread that I've seen. No semantics, no long-winded tirades, just nicely bulleted feats.
Nothing seems fishy or misconstrued, so by all means I should agree with the upgrade. I'll remain neutral for now however, though some other staff should be contacted (such as DDM, Maverick, LordGriffin, Elizhaa, etc.) to get their inputs.
Nothing seems fishy or misconstrued, so by all means I should agree with the upgrade. I'll remain neutral for now however, though some other staff should be contacted (such as DDM, Maverick, LordGriffin, Elizhaa, etc.) to get their inputs.
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Thanks for the input. I'll go ahead and contact them.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa What do you think about this?
@DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa What do you think about this?
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Besides some points others have mentioned, I agree with majority of the OP. So you can put me down on the agree side.
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Pretty sure we accept stuff like this as legitimate durability feats unless the character was stated/proven to hold back. It would need to be argued as an outlier (since Merlina broke something that scales to Sonic, not typical shonen protagonist endurance stuff.
MysticMania
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I guess there’s technically nothing wrong with Egg Breaker and Dealer points, but it means Sonic jumped up to super form tier after just a couple games and 4 years. Feels weird.
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I've removed the Egg Dealer and Egg Breaker because that would apply to the Adventure Era, which has significantly less consistency for this tier compared to the Modern Era
MysticMania
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I do agree. But, I don't feel they grow in power at all, so I guess it isn't new for me.
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Merlina was holding back. She had an entire transformation she didn't use.
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Sure but, she also uses the same spectral avatar and Deathcalibur swords she used in the final fight, and was actively trying to finish off Sonic near the end before he transformed.
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You answered your own question. Sonic's transformation saved him.
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My belief remains the same. She wanted to end the fight, and also, Dark Queen Merlina herself is Low 2-C. Having another transformation is irrelevant, as said transformation would simply be higher into the tier
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Merlina doesn't have a "transformation". She just has a form that she uses when using her full power that we see when fighting Excalibur. When fighting with Sonic, she clearly wasn't using her full power, no matter how many times people say "she wanted to finish the fight". This is media literacy, people. Comments like these make me wonder if you played the game or even saw a playthrough of it.
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she used the form to attack sonic tho
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You do realize that even 1% of a Low 2-C character's power would still be Low 2-C, right? That's kinda how it goes when it comes to tiers involving infinite levels of power. Even if she wasn't using her full power, I highly doubt the amount of power she was exerting was so infinitesimally small so as to drop her from an infinite level of power to a finite level (assuming Sonic doesn't become Low 2-C)
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Characters don't scale to other characters when they get stomped, they get someone comparable to them killed while saving them, and when they aren't even using their full power. It doesn't matter what their tier is, since this "1% of Low 2-C is Low 2-C" only exists in VSBW and not in the actual story. Endurance (which is what Sonic showed in the fight) isn't durability. Even if for some reason your logic was correct, LordGriffin is still right that it would be an outlier due to Merlina breaking Caliburn.
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That's why it's a downscale, not an actual full-on scale. Sonic fully scaling to Dark Queen Merlina makes no sense
"It only exists in VSBW" Yeah and we're debating within the confines of VSBW, so I'm going by the site's standards
I'd consider this a much more valid counterargument
ZespeonGalaxy
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Also for the record I agree with the revisions
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It's not downscale. It doesn't even fit with the definition of a downscale. Surviving being stomped isn't downscale. That's just endurance, not durability, and therefore doesn't serve for scaling. Outside of that you didn't provide a counter argument for my points, you just ignored them. "VSBW standards" or not, that still isn't a valid feat. If Merlina was tier 3 instead of tier 2, would you still scale her to Sonic?
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You were using a point made by Griffin to serve your own argument, yet also ignore that Griffin himself also mentioned that this would be durability, not just "typical shonen stuff" like you claimed it was. And I agree with that. Surviving multiple attacks from a character intending on finishing their battle would be cause for a downscale.
If we're arguing on VSBW, I will use VSBW standards, meaning that this is how it is - like it or not. You have continued to assert your positions as true without proper refutations, such as continuously insisting it is nothing more than endurance despite multiple people indicating otherwise, without much proof of this beyond "it's just typical shonen stuff."
The only valid counterargument I've seen is how this same Merlina broke Caliburn, which has similar durability to Sonic.
If Merlina was 3-A, for instance, I would still argue Sonic's durability would be something akin to "At most 3-A." Things are a bit different when it comes to High 3-A and up (as these tiers involve infinite power), but this would still generally apply. Of course, Sonic also has a bunch of other means of scaling to Low 2-C to begin with, which is why this works as support rather than a major point of debate.
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If it was just dura scaling off of one or two hits like the Titans or Time Eater I’d agree, but Sonic not only takes dozens of hits and doesn’t even go unconscious, but he even briefly blocked a strike and forced Merlina to exert more power to break through, before actively trying to kill Sonic. I feel downscaling is reasonable but I can drop it, if the other points are satisfactory
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I share this sentiment
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Let's please stay on topic, I don't wanna get into Tier 1 shenanigans at all
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I’d also point out that Mewtwo is accepted to downscale from 50% Zygarde for very similar reasoning.
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I'd prefer for other verses to not be brought into this discussion
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Just because I was using Griffin argument doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I don't know why you even thought of using that as a gotcha moment.
Because it IS endurace, and people screeching otherwise won't change that. Sonic couldn't hit her once, got extremely beaten up and his weapon destroyed. He was staying up via pure will. This is show in the game, with the Knights of the Round Table telling Sonic to give up, and he refusing. That's the reason Excalibur even awakened in the first place. Because of Sonic's resolve. Most people that are saying it's not endurance either haven't played the game, or don't remember it very well
Sonic does go unconscious. He just rises up again, and again out of sheer will. That's the point of Excalibur in the first place.
Downscaling Sonic from that scene is literally ignoring the entire message of said scene just to change the number in Sonic's tier. That's why I am going to disagree with this point.
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Idrc about the scaling in other pages. I also disagree with Mewtwo scaling because he survived two hits from Zygarde.
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No amount of endurance would help if Sonic didn't even somewhat scale, because if his durability didn't even somewhat scale, he wouldn't have even been able to survive as many hits as he did. Hell, in his current 4-A base form, he should've been one-shot by Merlina given that (as per the profiles at the moment) she was quite literally infinitely stronger than him. You can't resolve such a gap to being just "endurance," he has to scale in some capacity (though of course not fully).
You call other people's disagreements "screeching otherwise," which is very disingenuous, and could easily be reversed onto you.
She literally has another form, her Queen of the Underworld form, at least from my understanding. Look at her profile. So yes, from what I can tell, I have that point correct. Dismissing anyone that dares disagree with you as having a specific motive or just not playing the game or even watching the cutscenes is not a good look.
In addition, suppose I have that point wrong. That doesn't change anything, and it most certainly doesn't suddenly invalidate my entire argument, just because I got one thing wrong that isn't even that relevant to my argument to begin with.
...What?
A character shutting their eyes for a moment due to being hit by an attack and hitting the ground is a very common thing. That's not falling unconscious. His eyes are literally open and he's screaming as he falls, before he hits the ground and thus shuts his eyes for a moment, then gets back up immediately.
It doesn't do so at all, because Sonic is still very much inferior to her, and despite surviving all her attacks, he can't measure up to her with his own power - and yet even still, he refuses to give up, which is what enables Excalibur to come about.
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No one is saying it isn't an endurance feat. But endurance alone doesn't prevent you from being cut in half by a power that is infinitely above you. If a nuclear bomb went off, and you survived it, but were injured but still able to get up, that's endurance AND downscaling. Endurance only means the ability to keep fighting with injuries. So endurance wouldn't let you survive a nuke. You'd be reduced to ash.
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