Break Through It All! Low 2-C Modern Base Sonic CRT

[Shmooply]

DANGEROUSLY based.
Neutral for now though, not really leaning on any side.

 

[CloverDragon03]

disagree so my name will be in the OP

I'm assuming this is a joke, and I only say this so I don't get 5 consecutive comments ripping into me for "not counting a disagreeing vote"

 

[JJSliderman]

If this is applied, when should it start being applicable? Post-Battle?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

If this is applied, when should it start being applicable? Post-Battle?

Given the Egg Dealer and Egg Breaker are brought up in point 8, I was assuming Shadow's game onwards

 

[omegabronic]

If this is applied, when should it start being applicable? Post-Battle?

Shadow the hedgehog the game onwards

 

[omegabronic]

Given the Egg Dealer and Egg Breaker are brought up in point 8, I was assuming Shadow's game onwards

stop blitzing me

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

stop blitzing me

No

 

[ShakeResounding]

As a long-time supporter of Sonic on VSBW, this upgrade is... quite the pill to swallow. Likely the most well-sourced and concise thread regarding upgrading Base Sonic to Low 2-C thread that I've seen. No semantics, no long-winded tirades, just nicely bulleted feats.

Nothing seems fishy or misconstrued, so by all means I should agree with the upgrade. I'll remain neutral for now however, though some other staff should be contacted (such as DDM, Maverick, LordGriffin, Elizhaa, etc.) to get their inputs.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thanks for the input. I'll go ahead and contact them.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa What do you think about this?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Besides some points others have mentioned, I agree with majority of the OP. So you can put me down on the agree side.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Disagree with this. Sonic was heavily, and I mean heavily, stomped in this fight. Sonic couldn't even land a single hit on her. Sonic surviving all those hits is typical shonen protagonist endurance, not something he scales to. Not to forget that Merlina also broke Caliburn who literally scales to Sonic. This point only works assuming Sonic is already low 2-C, not as an argument of Sonic being low 2-C.

Pretty sure we accept stuff like this as legitimate durability feats unless the character was stated/proven to hold back. It would need to be argued as an outlier (since Merlina broke something that scales to Sonic, not typical shonen protagonist endurance stuff.

 

[MysticMania]

Emerl also uses the emeralds and you aren't putting him at low 2-C, aren't you? The Eclipse Cannon isn't low 2-C, either. So just having all seven emeralds isn't enough for a tier upgrade.

i mean i do Thank you for making this post, Clover.

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess there’s technically nothing wrong with Egg Breaker and Dealer points, but it means Sonic jumped up to super form tier after just a couple games and 4 years. Feels weird.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I guess there’s technically nothing wrong with Egg Breaker and Dealer points, but it means Sonic jumped up to super form tier after just a couple games and 4 years. Feels weird.

I've removed the Egg Dealer and Egg Breaker because that would apply to the Adventure Era, which has significantly less consistency for this tier compared to the Modern Era

 

[MysticMania]

I do agree. But, I don't feel they grow in power at all, so I guess it isn't new for me.

I guess there’s technically nothing wrong with Egg Breaker and Dealer points, but it means Sonic jumped up to super form tier after just a couple games and 4 years. Feels weird.

 

[Theuser789]

Pretty sure we accept stuff like this as legitimate durability feats unless the character was stated/proven to hold back.

Merlina was holding back. She had an entire transformation she didn't use.

 

[JJSliderman]

Sure but, she also uses the same spectral avatar and Deathcalibur swords she used in the final fight, and was actively trying to finish off Sonic near the end before he transformed.

 

[Theuser789]

finish off Sonic near the end before he transformed.

You answered your own question. Sonic's transformation saved him.

 

[CloverDragon03]

My belief remains the same. She wanted to end the fight, and also, Dark Queen Merlina herself is Low 2-C. Having another transformation is irrelevant, as said transformation would simply be higher into the tier

 

[Theuser789]

Dark Queen Merlina herself is Low 2-C. Having another transformation is irrelevant

Merlina doesn't have a "transformation". She just has a form that she uses when using her full power that we see when fighting Excalibur. When fighting with Sonic, she clearly wasn't using her full power, no matter how many times people say "she wanted to finish the fight". This is media literacy, people. Comments like these make me wonder if you played the game or even saw a playthrough of it.

 

[omegabronic]

Merlina doesn't have a "transformation". She just has a form that she uses when using her full power that we see when fighting Excalibur. When fighting with Sonic, she clearly wasn't using her full power, no matter how many times people say "she wanted to finish the fight". This is media literacy, people. Comments like these make me wonder if you played the game or even saw a playthrough of it.

she used the form to attack sonic tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

Merlina doesn't have a "transformation". She just has a form that she uses when using her full power that we see when fighting Excalibur. When fighting with Sonic, she clearly wasn't using her full power, no matter how many times people say "she wanted to finish the fight". This is media literacy, people. Comments like these make me wonder if you played the game or even saw a playthrough of it.

You do realize that even 1% of a Low 2-C character's power would still be Low 2-C, right? That's kinda how it goes when it comes to tiers involving infinite levels of power. Even if she wasn't using her full power, I highly doubt the amount of power she was exerting was so infinitesimally small so as to drop her from an infinite level of power to a finite level (assuming Sonic doesn't become Low 2-C)

 

[Alexander]

That reminds me that Sonic can survive a giant hit at full power (not counting that)

 

[Theuser789]

You do realize that even 1% of a Low 2-C character's power would still be Low 2-C, right? That's kinda how it goes when it comes to tiers involving infinite levels of power. Even if she wasn't using her full power, I highly doubt the amount of power she was exerting was so infinitesimally small so as to drop her from an infinite level of power to a finite level (assuming Sonic doesn't become Low 2-C)

Characters don't scale to other characters when they get stomped, they get someone comparable to them killed while saving them, and when they aren't even using their full power. It doesn't matter what their tier is, since this "1% of Low 2-C is Low 2-C" only exists in VSBW and not in the actual story. Endurance (which is what Sonic showed in the fight) isn't durability. Even if for some reason your logic was correct, LordGriffin is still right that it would be an outlier due to Merlina breaking Caliburn.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Characters don't scale to other characters when they get stomped, they get someone comparable to them killed while saving them, and when they aren't even using their full power.

That's why it's a downscale, not an actual full-on scale. Sonic fully scaling to Dark Queen Merlina makes no sense

It doesn't matter what their tier is, since this "1% of Low 2-C is Low 2-C" only exists in VSBW and not in the actual story.

"It only exists in VSBW" Yeah and we're debating within the confines of VSBW, so I'm going by the site's standards

Even if for some reason your logic was correct, LordGriffin is still right that it would be an outlier due to Merlina breaking Caliburn.

I'd consider this a much more valid counterargument

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Also for the record I agree with the revisions

 

[Theuser789]

That's why it's a downscale, not an actual full-on scale. Sonic fully scaling to Dark Queen Merlina makes no sense

"It only exists in VSBW" Yeah and we're debating within the confines of VSBW, so I'm going by the site's standards

I'd consider this a much more valid counterargument

It's not downscale. It doesn't even fit with the definition of a downscale. Surviving being stomped isn't downscale. That's just endurance, not durability, and therefore doesn't serve for scaling. Outside of that you didn't provide a counter argument for my points, you just ignored them. "VSBW standards" or not, that still isn't a valid feat. If Merlina was tier 3 instead of tier 2, would you still scale her to Sonic?

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not downscale. It doesn't even fit with the definition of a downscale. Surviving being stomped isn't downscale. That's just endurance, not durability, and therefore doesn't serve for scaling.

You were using a point made by Griffin to serve your own argument, yet also ignore that Griffin himself also mentioned that this would be durability, not just "typical shonen stuff" like you claimed it was. And I agree with that. Surviving multiple attacks from a character intending on finishing their battle would be cause for a downscale.

Outside of that you didn't provide a counter argument for my points, you just ignored them. "VSBW standards" or not, that still isn't a valid feat. If Merlina was tier 3 instead of tier 2, would you still scale her to Sonic?

If we're arguing on VSBW, I will use VSBW standards, meaning that this is how it is - like it or not. You have continued to assert your positions as true without proper refutations, such as continuously insisting it is nothing more than endurance despite multiple people indicating otherwise, without much proof of this beyond "it's just typical shonen stuff."

The only valid counterargument I've seen is how this same Merlina broke Caliburn, which has similar durability to Sonic.

If Merlina was 3-A, for instance, I would still argue Sonic's durability would be something akin to "At most 3-A." Things are a bit different when it comes to High 3-A and up (as these tiers involve infinite power), but this would still generally apply. Of course, Sonic also has a bunch of other means of scaling to Low 2-C to begin with, which is why this works as support rather than a major point of debate.

 

[JJSliderman]

If it was just dura scaling off of one or two hits like the Titans or Time Eater I’d agree, but Sonic not only takes dozens of hits and doesn’t even go unconscious, but he even briefly blocked a strike and forced Merlina to exert more power to break through, before actively trying to kill Sonic. I feel downscaling is reasonable but I can drop it, if the other points are satisfactory

 

[CloverDragon03]

If it was just dura scaling of of one or two hits like the Titans or Time Eater I’d agree, but Sonic not only takes dozens of hits and doesn’t even go unconscious, but he even briefly blocked a strike and forced Merlina to exert more power to break through, before actively trying to kill Sonic. I feel downscaling is reasonable but I can drop it, if the other points are satisfactory

I share this sentiment

 

[Alexander]

I say one thing is to get hit and stay knocked out for a while, but another thing is to directly tank hits and not be knocked out,like there is a difference between ''getting one-shotted''and ''getting beaten up''

 

[Eseseso]

JJ is right, if he takes dozens of hits he downscales bare minimum.

 

[Eseseso]

Mark me as agree as well, the logic is sound and the scaling and feats are consistent for Low 2-C Sonic so I see no reason not to say yes.
We inch closer to Game Sonic rivaling Archie Sonic in power, just need some Tier 1 stuff from the games and it'll be complete.

Solaris SHOULD be tier 1 via being beyond/above the 4D MaginaryWorld

 

[CloverDragon03]

Solaris SHOULD be tier 1 via being beyond/above the 4D MaginaryWorld

Let's please stay on topic, I don't wanna get into Tier 1 shenanigans at all

 

[JJSliderman]

If it was just dura scaling off of one or two hits like the Titans or Time Eater I’d agree, but Sonic not only takes dozens of hits and doesn’t even go unconscious, but he even briefly blocked a strike and forced Merlina to exert more power to break through, before actively trying to kill Sonic. I feel downscaling is reasonable but I can drop it, if the other points are satisfactory

I’d also point out that Mewtwo is accepted to downscale from 50% Zygarde for very similar reasoning.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’d also point out that Mewtwo is accepted to downscale from 50% Zygarde for very similar reasoning.

I'd prefer for other verses to not be brought into this discussion

 

[Theuser789]

You were using a point made by Griffin to serve your own argument, yet also ignore that Griffin himself also mentioned that this would be durability, not just "typical shonen stuff" like you claimed it was.

Just because I was using Griffin argument doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I don't know why you even thought of using that as a gotcha moment.

You have continued to assert your positions as true without proper refutations, such as continuously insisting it is nothing more than endurance despite multiple people indicating otherwise,

Because it IS endurace, and people screeching otherwise won't change that. Sonic couldn't hit her once, got extremely beaten up and his weapon destroyed. He was staying up via pure will. This is show in the game, with the Knights of the Round Table telling Sonic to give up, and he refusing. That's the reason Excalibur even awakened in the first place. Because of Sonic's resolve. Most people that are saying it's not endurance either haven't played the game, or don't remember it very well or just really want to Sonic be Low 2-C. You, for one, haven't played the game and thought Merlina had another form, even.

but Sonic not only takes dozens of hits and doesn’t even go unconscious,

Sonic does go unconscious. He just rises up again, and again out of sheer will. That's the point of Excalibur in the first place.

Downscaling Sonic from that scene is literally ignoring the entire message of said scene just to change the number in Sonic's tier. That's why I am going to disagree with this point.

 

[Theuser789]

I’d also point out that Mewtwo is accepted to downscale from 50% Zygarde for very similar reasoning.

Idrc about the scaling in other pages. I also disagree with Mewtwo scaling because he survived two hits from Zygarde.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because it IS endurace, and people screeching otherwise won't change that. Sonic couldn't hit her once, got extremely beaten up and his weapon destroyed. He was staying up via pure will. This is show in the game, with the Knights of the Round Table telling Sonic to give up, and he refusing. That's the reason Excalibur even awakened in the first place. Because of Sonic's resolve.

No amount of endurance would help if Sonic didn't even somewhat scale, because if his durability didn't even somewhat scale, he wouldn't have even been able to survive as many hits as he did. Hell, in his current 4-A base form, he should've been one-shot by Merlina given that (as per the profiles at the moment) she was quite literally infinitely stronger than him. You can't resolve such a gap to being just "endurance," he has to scale in some capacity (though of course not fully).

You call other people's disagreements "screeching otherwise," which is very disingenuous, and could easily be reversed onto you.

Most people that are saying it's not endurance either haven't played the game, or don't remember it very well or just really want to Sonic be Low 2-C. You, for one, haven't played the game and thought Merlina had another form, even.

She literally has another form, her Queen of the Underworld form, at least from my understanding. Look at her profile. So yes, from what I can tell, I have that point correct. Dismissing anyone that dares disagree with you as having a specific motive or just not playing the game or even watching the cutscenes is not a good look.

In addition, suppose I have that point wrong. That doesn't change anything, and it most certainly doesn't suddenly invalidate my entire argument, just because I got one thing wrong that isn't even that relevant to my argument to begin with.

Sonic does go unconscious. He just rises up again, and again out of sheer will. That's the point of Excalibur in the first place.

...What?

A character shutting their eyes for a moment due to being hit by an attack and hitting the ground is a very common thing. That's not falling unconscious. His eyes are literally open and he's screaming as he falls, before he hits the ground and thus shuts his eyes for a moment, then gets back up immediately.

Downscaling Sonic from that scene is literally ignoring the entire message of said scene just to change the number in Sonic's tier. That's why I am going to disagree with this point.

It doesn't do so at all, because Sonic is still very much inferior to her, and despite surviving all her attacks, he can't measure up to her with his own power - and yet even still, he refuses to give up, which is what enables Excalibur to come about.

 

[LaserPrecision]

No one is saying it isn't an endurance feat. But endurance alone doesn't prevent you from being cut in half by a power that is infinitely above you. If a nuclear bomb went off, and you survived it, but were injured but still able to get up, that's endurance AND downscaling. Endurance only means the ability to keep fighting with injuries. So endurance wouldn't let you survive a nuke. You'd be reduced to ash.