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Agreed
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Bleach's Greatest Fanfic
- Thread starter Arcker123
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We still having problems?
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Sorry. It's habit by now to quote specific sections when addressing them, instead of quoting whole posts.
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Better back off my man wife.Responding in quotes really ******* sucks, but I'll try my best for you
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Do you know if you highlight a portion of the original post you can quote it without quoting the whole post, but it’ll also ping them
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Do you know if you highlight a portion of the original post you can quote it without quoting the whole post, but it’ll also ping them
But nah, I'll remember to do that next time.
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So um, I've read this thread, it took alot of time but okay.
Still I'm not getting sth, are damage and AKM arguing that Aizen's EE is related to his Reiatsu while Arcker and others say it's not?
(Don't get angry if I misunderstood ur position, just correct me for it)
It's related to Reiatsu in the sense that its done by his Reiatsu, as the scan AKM showed for Aizen when he was in Muken.
However, its not related to Reiatsu in the sense of "anyone who reaches this level of Reiatsu will have EE" as this meaning is contradicted by the series, and its not how we treat hax, I agree with Arcker that the burden of proof is on the other side to prove that this weakness exists.
Also I think Aizen's EE has nothing to do with his RC range/Aura, when Reio's remnants came down to SS, Aizen reiatsu crushed them on a wider range, this is his Reiatsu crush.
But his EE had a much more limited range that it only erased the other soul reapers when they came too close to him in Muken.
Another difference is that his EE is passively surrounding him on a specific range, and anything comes in will get erased as he himself said that to Shunsui, he can control his RC and choose on whom he should use/apply it, which was shown many times in the series.
So based on this I say that his RC aura is irrelevant to his EE hax range, both are completely different things as its shown, its not like when u get strong enough ur Reiatsu crush turns into an EE, both are different things.
That's my opinion for now, and thus I support a full rating of EE.
However if Damage and others didn't agree, I think a compromise of possibly EE should work too.
Sorry if that's too long to read but yeah.
Small addition:
As a Shinigami ability, it has to follow the same rules, if someone is much stronger than u, he will neg it with his Reiatsu.
If someone is comparable to you or weaker, he can't do that with his Reiatsu, and this has many examples over the series, but I think it's everyone agrees on it here so no need for derailment
Still I'm not getting sth, are damage and AKM arguing that Aizen's EE is related to his Reiatsu while Arcker and others say it's not?
(Don't get angry if I misunderstood ur position, just correct me for it)
It's related to Reiatsu in the sense that its done by his Reiatsu, as the scan AKM showed for Aizen when he was in Muken.
However, its not related to Reiatsu in the sense of "anyone who reaches this level of Reiatsu will have EE" as this meaning is contradicted by the series, and its not how we treat hax, I agree with Arcker that the burden of proof is on the other side to prove that this weakness exists.
Also I think Aizen's EE has nothing to do with his RC range/Aura, when Reio's remnants came down to SS, Aizen reiatsu crushed them on a wider range, this is his Reiatsu crush.
But his EE had a much more limited range that it only erased the other soul reapers when they came too close to him in Muken.
Another difference is that his EE is passively surrounding him on a specific range, and anything comes in will get erased as he himself said that to Shunsui, he can control his RC and choose on whom he should use/apply it, which was shown many times in the series.
So based on this I say that his RC aura is irrelevant to his EE hax range, both are completely different things as its shown, its not like when u get strong enough ur Reiatsu crush turns into an EE, both are different things.
That's my opinion for now, and thus I support a full rating of EE.
However if Damage and others didn't agree, I think a compromise of possibly EE should work too.
Sorry if that's too long to read but yeah.
Small addition:
As a Shinigami ability, it has to follow the same rules, if someone is much stronger than u, he will neg it with his Reiatsu.
If someone is comparable to you or weaker, he can't do that with his Reiatsu, and this has many examples over the series, but I think it's everyone agrees on it here so no need for derailment
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Agnaa
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The argument's that they're related enough to probably have similar mechanics; that as a component of the aura, if someone not as strong but still somewhat similar, like Don, can withstand his RC for a time (even if they can't completely null it), then other characters on a similar level of strength, such as Ichigo and Yhwach, should be able to withstand the EE portion for a time.
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always W
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This is not disputed by the way. His Reiatsu crush range and his EE range are acknowledged to be different. That doesn't mean they both don't work on the same mechanics.
Nowhere has anyone claimed that he could erase people as far as his Reaitsu crush could reach.
Arcker123
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You’re not responding to his argument in principle. His argument is that since the EE is shown to be different range wise to his RC, it’s erroneous to think they share similar mechanics. If they did work on similar mechanics, then presumably, the range would be the same.
Your only argument for the claim they both operate on the same mechanics is that “they’re both his Reiatsu.” This example shows this argument to be false, as it proves it can be the case that they’re both Reiatsu based, yet have different mechanics.
You’ve still failed to present evidence on how they share the same weakness. When it’s been shown that the EE and RC work differently and don’t share mechanics like range. It’s extremely erroneous to say they share weakness mechanics like strength.
I haven’t been keeping up with this thread, so if your argument isn’t just “It’s both Reiatsu” then sorry. However, this argument is a solid debunk to that claim, and a debunk to any argument you can make really. There’s not much evidence to prove they share a weakness, and them sharing mechanics is already disproven. It’s just extremely weird to assume two abilities shown to operate differently share mechanics. That’s Yuka’s and my argument.
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I don't agree; there is no indication that they should possess the same range if they are both derived from his Reiatsu. You say "presumably, the range would be the same", but I just don't presume that.
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The argument (or at least the one I find convincing) isn't "they're both the same just because lol" or "they're both the same because they're Reiatsu based", it's "they're both the same because these restraints drew a link between his spiritual pressure and his EE." Which seems like it's drawing a similarity in mechanics that could have them share weaknesses. Although that's not certain, so I'd still give resistances & working on comparable beings a possibly.
Arkenis
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Why would the range be what implies they don't work similar?
Arcker123
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Range is a mechanic of an ability, this is obvious. Stop nitpicking my use of language to make an argument. If they shared mechanics as you claimed, then they would share similar ranges.
Because range is a mechanic of an ability. If they don’t share that in common, then assuming they have other mechanics (like weakness) in common is just erroneous. When them sharing other mechanics is shown to be false, it’s just improbable that they share another mechanic in common (weakness). You’d need further evidence then “they share mechanics” to make this case for a shared weakness.
Oh Ok, thanks for clearing this up.
In any case, I don’t think this adequately responds to what I’m saying then. The most that’s derivable from this is that his EE is connected to his Reiatsu (Like every other ability in verse). This isn’t adequate proof of his RC is shares a weakness. The range example which I’ve explained already would be a defeater to this notion (It’s objectively false that they share all mechanics, so assuming that they share the same weakness is just gonna be erroneous without further evidence). I dead ass also feel like you could reduce this to absurdity by saying “well, his spiritual pressure is also tied to his KS for ex, so under this reasoning, his KS and twists I crush have the same mechanics.” This is obviously false. I feel like the only response you could give to that is “why didn’t he say that in this scans,” which runs into the same error that the human scans do, which is the fact that Aizen is just referring to what’s contextually relevant (his EE). I feel like this is a strong argument against this argument as well, but idk if it’s digestible.
Sorry if this is incoherent. It’s long, I’m on phone, and it’s 4AM
Edit: Reiatsu isn’t necessarily Reiatsu Crush in that form either. Reiatsu is just the exertion of spiritual energy, which we are shown has multiple effects. For this argument to even get off the ground, you have to baselessly assume Aizen is referring to a specific form of his Reiatsu crush, instead of his normal Reiatsu, which is obviously just Eh.
Arkenis
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Not sharing one mechanic does not mean they now share zero mechanics.
Arcker123
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You have no understanding of what I’m arguing.
I’m arguing that since they obviously don’t share all the mechanics (as shown by range), then the claim “they share the same mechanics so therefore they share the same weakness” Is objectively false, and “same spiritual pressure means they share the same mechanics” is also false, as they are shown to have different mechanics.
I’m not saying what you said, im saying that more proof has to be presented that they share the same weakness. It’s their burden to prove they share a weakness, not mine to show there isn’t. I was just explaining why their reasoning fails.
(TL;DR, saying “they have the same mechanics therefore they share the same weakness as well,” Is an objectively false claim, as they obviously don’t share the all same mechanics as shown with range. Simply saying “they’re both Reiatsu therefore they have the same weakness” simply isn’t a good enough explanation, given how they have other mechanics that aren’t the same. You have to prove how they share the weakness. It’s objectively not true that having Reiatsu means they have similar mechanics, so why would this apply for range? That’s my argument).
Really hoping this is coherent…
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It's coherent; it just isn't convincing. It seems fairly logical to me that the closer you get to Aizen, the more potent the effects of his power will be. He commended Tatsuki for being able to maintain her identity at such a close range to him. The implication being that if he gets any closer, then the effects of his Reiatsu will increase as well.
If you're away from someone, their Reiatsu will affect you less. If you get within point-blank range of this version of Aizen, then his power will be so overwhelming that they will be erased.
If you're away from someone, their Reiatsu will affect you less. If you get within point-blank range of this version of Aizen, then his power will be so overwhelming that they will be erased.
Arkenis
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dude ngl, its 4am, I think you should come back once you've slept so you can have a different look on this. Maybe I should too.
Arcker123
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@Arkenis, if you want a more digestible version of my argument, then:
Since “Reiatsu/Same Mechanics” objectively doesn’t apply to all mechanics of the EE, you need more evidence than that to assert they share the same weakness. There’s no reason this is just to be assumed to apply here, when the principle has been shown to be contradicted elsewhere.
.
Since “Reiatsu/Same Mechanics” objectively doesn’t apply to all mechanics of the EE, you need more evidence than that to assert they share the same weakness. There’s no reason this is just to be assumed to apply here, when the principle has been shown to be contradicted elsewhere.
So real. So real in fact, you don’t give a response to what I argued, but you just hop to a different argument
.Real. Prove this applies to the EE rq. Because you’re just showing me a mechanic of the RC, which isn’t the same thing as his EE. Tying this scan to EE at all is complete fan fiction. I’ve made this distinction several times and you haven’t responded.
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You're saying "They aren't shown to work at the same range so they work completely differently to each other" and I'm saying I don't buy that because that has never been implied to be a thing. Accuse me of headcanon all you like, that isn't going to change my views.
Arcker123
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. Irony.Also no, this isn’t what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that The EE doesn’t share a mechanic with the standard RC, so you’d have to give further evidence as to why they share the weakness beyond “they are Reiatsu.” Characters having effects with their Reiatsu that aren’t RC isn’t even an Aizen exclusive thing. See Kenpachi. You’d also have to prove the EE is the same as his RC to make all your args work btw. I don’t have to prove the negation nor have I really claimed to, stop strawmanning and burden shifting.
Your arguments are head canons and you haven’t given a rebuttal to that notion and I have given plenty for it. Burden of rejoinder GG
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Aizen says that it his Reiatsu which is responsible for the erasure. He says that humans can't withstand his power. Why can't they withstand his power? It's because their spirits are so much weaker than him. Has Aizen ever been in close proximity to someone comparable to him? Yes; and it didn't work.
It is a bigger case of headcanon to me to say "Ichigo and Yhwach have some unexplained resistance to have their existence erased" than it is just see this as a demonstration of the existing mechanics of Reiatsu.
It's fair if you don't agree, but don't pretend that the side claiming these characters have Resistance aren't using anything other than headcanon here.
Your arguments are head canons and you haven’t given a rebuttal to that notion and I have given plenty for it. Burden of rejoinder GG
"Burden of rejoinder" is not a magical catchphrase that ends the thread.
Fair enough, we can see if other staff members are convinced. So far we've had input from 6 staff members.
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The range wasn't my only point, they are even shown to work different, EE surrounds him and anything comes close will get erased passively.
RC has a wider range and can be focused on one thing far from you without harming people who are close to you, both have different Aura, just because they are both done by his Reiatsu doesn't mean they share a certain weakness.
RC gives sth like fear, paralysis and weird things like that (watch Nanao vs Yama to get my point), but EE doesn't.
You need to prove that this weakness exists.
RC has a wider range and can be focused on one thing far from you without harming people who are close to you, both have different Aura, just because they are both done by his Reiatsu doesn't mean they share a certain weakness.
RC gives sth like fear, paralysis and weird things like that (watch Nanao vs Yama to get my point), but EE doesn't.
You need to prove that this weakness exists.
Arcker123
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In what possible universe could you think that this is a response to anything I said? Like, deadass nothing I said gets addressed here, just you rabbit trailing about nonsense. You still haven’t fulfilled your burdens, which i spelled out for you. For this argument again, you need to prove:
- His EE is his RC (Or at least has the same weakness property). Them being Reiatsu based has been responded to multiple times and you haven’t given a rebuttal.
- This complete headcanon that Aizen’s EE being unable to be withstood by humans proves it’s due to their spiritual weakness. You literally just described them not having resistances. It not working on people relative is also not an argument. It’s just resistance. Prove your claims.
Please. I beg of you. Stop saying this as if it means anything or holds any value to this conversation. News flash, resisting a hax doesn’t require some special explanation. In your own words “not everything needs to be spelled out explicitly.” Feats are a thing.
You don’t know what Headcanon is. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Feats are a thing, especially when it comes to resistances. You also again, present no evidence I’m using headcanon, or respond to my arguments you are. This is annoyingly bad.
Do you know what Burden of Rejoinder is by any chance? No sarcasm there, genuine question. I keep saying this because you keep dodging my arguments, and it’s a semi funny thing that in a formal debate, your argumentation is a huge no-no.
Agnaa
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Could you elaborate on what the non-range differences are?
Because you said range isn't your only point, then you listed:
- Anything that comes close gets affected (also applies to RC)
- RC has a wider range (this is just range)
- RC can be focused (this also applies to the EE, as discussed earlier)
- RC can harm those far from you without harming those close to you (this might work, do you have a scan of this where the characters who are close aren't just too strong for RC?)
- Have different aura (no clue what this means)
- RC gives things other than EE (no shit, the argument is that EE is another one of those things that just functions on a smaller range)
Arcker: Your points are coherent, but after Damage pointed out that RC has other components that vary with range, that makes me believe that EE could just be another component of this one character's RC that varies with range. Your primary response to that was "prove that happens with EE" which is missing the point; you said that having a different range proves that it's dissimilar to RC, but RC also has varying ranges for its effects.
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@Arcker123; Your post isn't worth responding to at this point. I'm fine just waiting for more staff input rather than going around in circles with you.
EDIT: I apologize. That was a spur of the moment post because I was annoyed by your previous post. To be more diplomatic about it, I don't think it would be productive to engage your latest post because it seemed inflammatory.
EDIT: I apologize. That was a spur of the moment post because I was annoyed by your previous post. To be more diplomatic about it, I don't think it would be productive to engage your latest post because it seemed inflammatory.
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Have you conceded any points since your last response to me? Or is there another post of yours that better represents your current stance.
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I think the last thing I conceded on was that the Gin scene was not necessarily an anti-feat. You were correct that Aizen likely would have been holding back against Gin.
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I mainly post 2 differences, first one was the range, second one was how they work, EE is like a circle around Aizen and anything comes in will be erased, his RC is different, you can choose who u want to affect with it and whom not.
I can think of one example right now.
Here, Grimmjow was moving away and Aizen made him bow on his knees with his Reiatsu crush while all the espada were sitting next to Aizen casually unaffected, even tho Grimmjow is the 6th strongest Espada, Szayel, Yammy and Zommari were there and they are all weaker than Grimmjow.
By different Aura I meant that since the range is different, and they are different in how they affect your opponent, they are separated than each other, if RC has a weakness, it doesn't mean this apply to EE unless it's proven in the series.
Another argument can be made that no one other than Aizen had this EE for his Reiatsu, Ichigo was releasing a Reiatsu that was in a different dimension in power (according to Aizen) but he was carrying his dad, later in TYBW serious Ichigo was standing next to Orihime, then he event went to use his horn of Salvation form which is much more powerful than Hogyoku Aizen while he was still next to Orihime, if you want to assume that EE is just caused by having high Reiatsu levels, Ichigo should be the first one to have it and Orihime didn't feel like getting erased or sth even tho Ichigo was fighting seriously and she was next to him.
Also iirc (not sure on this one) Hisagi interacted with Hikone (who is accepted here to be above Hogyoku Aizen) and he wasn't erased.
It's clear that no one else in the series had this EE except for Aizen which means it's a special ability for him, its not just caused randomly by having high amounts of Spirutual pressure.
Sorry for making it long but in a summary, the first 2 points imo are enough to suggest that EE and RC and different and separated, if RC has a weakness, it doesn't have to be the same with EE.
The last point was just in response to the argument of "EE is part of RC and it happens when you have high Reiatsu"
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Someone earlier in the thread stated that Aizen could hold back to not erase Gin even when he was close to him, so the same could apply here. Or since Orihime can somehow keep up with Yhwach with her shields, perhaps she's just strong enough that the difference between her and Ichigo isn't as great as the distance between Aizen and fodder Shinigami/Humans.
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No that's not addressing the point, Aizen was holding back, Ichigo was serious there and standing to Orihime and her barrier was infront of him, Ichigo was definitely serious there and he even went to that form and made that energy-like explosion while Orihime standing next to him, either you conceed that it's special to Aizen and has nothing to do with RC, or u will have to give Orihime a resistance to EE since she isn't on par with Ichigo.
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