Bleach's Greatest Fanfic

[Shadowbokunohero]

that being said im not entirely against the steel-man argument of not being able to conclusively prove either, so a Possibly rating I don't think would be irresponsible.
it's not worth getting hung up too much on semantics.

So for now I'm Neutral

 

[Arkenis]

that being said im not entirely against the steel-man argument of not being able to conclusively prove either, so a Possibly rating I don't think would be irresponsible.
it's not worth getting hung up too much on semantics.

So for now I'm Neutral

it could become a rather important part within a versus match though which would end up becoming this thread lol.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I don't remember that being accepted.

Ignore me, then. I thought it was.

 

[Arcker123]

I have not been paying attention to this thread much, but imma respond to all the people I need to.

Arcker: Your points are coherent, but after Damage pointed out that RC has other components that vary with range, that makes me believe that EE could just be another component of this one character's RC that varies with range. Your primary response to that was "prove that happens with EE" which is missing the point; you said that having a different range proves that it's dissimilar to RC, but RC also has varying ranges for its effects.

This isn't what I'm arguing.

I'm just saying that Reiatsu has different effects, and these effects have some similarities sure, but the also have some differences. Like, Even standard RC has shi like Soul manip, fear manip etc, as well as exerting physical force. They can be argued to have similarities sure, but they also have differences, and thus, you'd have to give extra reason to think they share this weakness (which has never been displayed) beyond them both just being Reiatsu (As different effects of Reiatsu have differences, they literally are different because they're different hax Lol). I brought up range to prove that. The EE objectively doesn't vary with range, as shown with the bottle example. It's erasure doesn't get stronger with proximity, or else it would have erased the bottle sooner. Unlike the physical RC, it has a set range, so Damage's argument proves nothing.

Even if it did, even if my range argument was refuted, you'd still have the burden to prove they share the weakness. My argument still stands for other reasons that weren't addressed here. You have to prove that the EE shares the weakness with the physical effects of his RC. Asserting "It's both RC so they have similar mechanics," simply isn't a good enough explanation to prove this (As I explained above, as different effects of Reiatsu, including EE have differences). There's also the KS thing I brought up. No one has fulfilled their burden yet.

I brought up “prove this applies to the EE” because Damage has to prove that a weakness to the physical RC is the same as a weakness to the EE.

No one even defended the claim the EE was RC btw. The only argument for that is the Muken scan which i responded to with no rebuttal. Kek W.

Edit: TLR: Let’s assume the EE is RC related, well, different effects of RC have different properties basically, even if you prove they have range in common, you’d still have to specifically prove they share a weakness. The different abilities of RC don’t all have the same properties, that’s proven by them being , well, different abilities This isn’t burden isn’t fulfilled by going after my range argument.

Not really sure why the Hogyoku giving him the power/it not being 1-1 with his Reiatsu Crush means literally anything when they're arguing off of it's own feats and statements as an individual power.

Not having the same range as something absolutely doesn't mean their mechanics can't be similar, what? What kind of nonsense logic is that? They already have similar mechanics via BEING AN AURA lmao, if someone brings up statements and showings about it to argue it having certain mechanics then the Range of it vs the Range of another ability it would have similar mechanics to is entirely irrelevant.

Genuinely don't see why something that obvious is even being debated.

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you took any of that away from my argument, then... I dunno what to say to you.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll get to responding to AKM’s response to me later. But it’s as Arcker said, them being Reiatsu based doesn’t mean they share weaknesses. Respira, KS, Almighty, etc etc are all Reiatsu based but they don’t share the RC weakness. Furthermore, the opposing side hasn’t proved that the EE is tied to RC either. And I’ll get into that more when I refute AKM’s notion of what power has to mean later.

 

[Arcker123]

The argument (or at least the one I find convincing) isn't "they're both the same just because lol" or "they're both the same because they're Reiatsu based", it's "they're both the same because these restraints drew a link between his spiritual pressure and his EE." Which seems like it's drawing a similarity in mechanics that could have them share weaknesses. Although that's not certain, so I'd still give resistances & working on comparable beings a possibly.

This argument fails for another reason. This statement isn't specifically in reference to his RC or aura, just his general Spiritual Pressure. This statement refers to the fact the seals can affect his range with his attacks as well. This statement is contextualized later to prove my point. Aizen fires a non RC Reiatsu attack at the Reiokyu but it doesn't reach due to the seals. Reiatsu Crush =\= Reiatsu. This statement refers to his Reiatsu broadly, not specifically Reiatsu crush, which disproves this argument. Aizen ties his EE to his Reiatsu, not his RC. This isn't proof Aizen's EE shares a weakness with his physical Reiatsu crush, as Reiatsu isn't necessarily just Reiatsu Crush. Hell, this is even proven in this scene. In this scene, Aizen solidifies his Reiatsu into a beam, if his Reiatsu is always just RC, then everyone there would have been affected (It had the range, and they were right there, the Reiatsu had already crossed hundreds of meters).

So yeah, this doesn't prove anything. Reiatsu isn't always RC, so this statement isn't applicable to EE = RC nonsense without lots of headcanon and just going against established mechanics of Bleach. This doesn't even prove the EE's connected to RC in the first place.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This argument fails for another reason. This statement isn't specifically in reference to his RC or aura, just his general Spiritual Pressure. This statement refers to the fact the seals can affect his range with his attacks as well. This statement is contextualized later to prove my point. Aizen fires a non RC Reiatsu attack at the Reiokyu but it doesn't reach due to the seals. Reiatsu Crush =\= Reiatsu. This statement refers to his Reiatsu broadly, not specifically Reiatsu crush, which disproves this argument. Aizen ties his EE to his Reiatsu, not his RC. This isn't proof Aizen's EE shares a weakness with his physical Reiatsu crush, as Reiatsu isn't necessarily just Reiatsu Crush. Hell, this is even proven in this scene. In this scene, Aizen solidifies his Reiatsu into a beam, if his Reiatsu is always just RC, then everyone there would have been affected (It had the range, and they were right there, the Reiatsu had already crossed hundreds of meters).

So yeah, this doesn't prove anything. Reiatsu isn't always RC, so this statement isn't applicable to EE = RC nonsense without lots of headcanon and just going against established mechanics of Bleach. This doesn't even prove the EE's connected to RC in the verse place.

Agree wholeheartedly, this inherently proves that Aizen’s statement within Muken cannot be referring to a connection between his RC aura and his EE aura, but rather is simply referring to the range of his reiatsu in general.

 

[Arcker123]

Wait until everyone realizes that this much contentious and even debating only supports a possibly rating

 

[Damage3245]

Wait until everyone realizes that this much contentious and even debating only supports a possibly rating

I must admit this is the most contentious thread I've seen in a while over so small a matter, lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I must admit this is the most contentious thread I've seen in a while over so small a matter, lol.

Real.

 

[Livinmeme]

I must admit this is the most contentious thread I've seen in a while over so small a matter, lol.

TF2 9-A says hi

 

[Axxtentacle]

Why is everyone taking this as it HAS to be his reiatsu crush? Why can't it just be it's own ability that has weaknesses? Why isn't that the argument?

 

[Arcker123]

Why is everyone taking this as it HAS to be his reiatsu crush? Why can't it just be it's own ability that has weaknesses? Why isn't that the argument?

Because the argument is that it has a similar form of weakness because it's a form of RC/Reiatsu. That's what me and arc are debunking.

 

[YukaSama4]

Why can't it just be it's own ability that has weaknesses?

Where did you get that weakness from lol

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm saying why isn't it just being argued that the ability has a weakness of itself using the statements provided about the ability.

Stop taking this as a you vs me, chief. I don't care too much. That statement isn't saying that I think it has a weakness, i'm literally just saying I think it'd be better if it was argued that way.

 

[YukaSama4]

I'm saying why isn't it just being argued that the ability has a weakness of itself using the statements provided about the ability.

Stop taking this as a you vs me, chief. I don't care too much. That statement isn't saying that I think it has a weakness, i'm literally just saying I think it'd be better if it was argued that way.

Chill, no one is taking it like that, we are just explaining that the weakness is derived from arguing that its a part of RC, because RC has that weakness.

We good now?

 

[Arcker123]

I'm saying why isn't it just being argued that the ability has a weakness of itself using the statements provided about the ability.

Because that can’t be proven

 

[Axxtentacle]

Chill, no one is taking it like that, we are just explaining that the weakness is derived from arguing that its a part of RC, because RC has that weakness.

And i'm saying if it being connected to RC is why people think it has that weakness, why can't you just argue that it's it's own ability that happens to have it's own weaknesses? I just personally think that'd be better to argue if it being a part of RC isn't provable.

We good now?

Sure.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And i'm saying if it being connected to RC is why people think it has that weakness, why can't you just argue that it's it's own ability that happens to have it's own weaknesses? I just personally think that'd be better to argue if it being a part of RC isn't provable.

Because the “it’s got its own weakness” has been debunked/conceded upon. That’s why the opposition shifted argumentation towards it being instrinsically linked to RC.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Mk then.

 

[Agnaa]

Arcker: I started writing up a response to your post, but then you made the second one about how those restraints apply to Reiatsu in general. I'm okay with certainly giving resistance now. The only evidence left is extremely flimsy. Having one statement of "Their spirits are unable to withstand my power" should not be enough to reduce the certainty of a resistance.

I'm saying why isn't it just being argued that the ability has a weakness of itself using the statements provided about the ability.

The statements about the ability itself are very weak. While they can be built off of, it's not really enough without tying it to an RC weakness.

 

[Arcker123]

This is why @Arc7Kuroi sucks at debating and I’m better then him.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is why @Arc7Kuroi sucks at debating and I’m better then him.

We are tied loser

 

[Arcker123]

We are tied loser

Well I just broke the tie goober

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Going to have to disagree here on equal interpretation. , Power is more often than not, a very holistic term, that's not to say that power cant be referring to a specific ability but when it does there's normally a precedence for it in the work or's attached to a larger context. for definitons this broad the interpretation thats the most specific would require the most evidence.

that being said im not entirely against the steel-man argument of not being able to conclusively prove either, so a Possibly rating I don't think would be irresponsible.
it's not worth getting hung up too much on semantics.

So for now I'm Neutral

Sure in a vacuum, power often can refer to raw strength. However, as shown in my prior post, the context for that statement is Aizen talking about his Existence Erasure. He uses his EE to erase someone and then states that they cannot withstand that power, that power being his EE. When I mentioned equal interp, it was in the sense of worst case scenario, equal interp renders both arguments invalid, but the context points to power referring to an ability. So, does you saying "a possibly rating isn't irresponsible" indicate support of a possibly rating?

It's not pigeon holing and it can't be equally interpreted as otherwise. Look at the statement again:

"Don't come near me. Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

"Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy" is directly referring to power as in the one which is brought about by having a high spirit energy. This is not referencing any ability because you can't sense someone's EE ability. The second sentence is built off of the first, so power there means the same aforementioned power.

Characters can sense abilities and non AP related powers in Bleach (we see Ichigo sense Shunsui's Bankai which is pure hax), since every power in Bleach (AP attacks to hax) are all fueled by your spirit energy. Furthermore, humans being unable to sense Aizen does in no way prove that Aizen's EE shares the same weakness as his RC. Aizen simply states that because normal humans have no spiritual senses, they cannot sense him. All Aizen is inherently saying is this "Humans possess no spiritual senses, as a consequence of that, they cannot sense me. However, they cannot withstand my EE regardless". The first part is just Aizen informing us that regular humans don't possess the means to spiritual perceive him, and the second part is Aizen saying that regardless of that fact, they still cannot withstand his power. Aizen's power that they cannot withstand is his EE, as that is objectively what we are shown and told. Aizen isn't inherently saying his EE is AP based whatsoever, the but in the second sentence just means "even though they cannot sense me". Put that together and you get this "Even though they cannot sense me, they are not immune to my power (EE aura)".

Coupled with the following statement:
"Such gross carelessness. These restraints do not eliminate my spiritual pressure. They only keep it near me. I don't have to tell you what will happen if you try to touch me."
It's again implied to be a product of his power, or spiritual pressure.

Every hax in Bleach is based on reiatsu, this does not prove it's AP based. Also, Arcker goes into detail here so I won't bother repeating it:

This argument fails for another reason. This statement isn't specifically in reference to his RC or aura, just his general Spiritual Pressure. This statement refers to the fact the seals can affect his range with his attacks as well. This statement is contextualized later to prove my point. Aizen fires a non RC Reiatsu attack at the Reiokyu but it doesn't reach due to the seals. Reiatsu Crush =\= Reiatsu. This statement refers to his Reiatsu broadly, not specifically Reiatsu crush, which disproves this argument. Aizen ties his EE to his Reiatsu, not his RC. This isn't proof Aizen's EE shares a weakness with his physical Reiatsu crush, as Reiatsu isn't necessarily just Reiatsu Crush. Hell, this is even proven in this scene. In this scene, Aizen solidifies his Reiatsu into a beam, if his Reiatsu is always just RC, then everyone there would have been affected (It had the range, and they were right there, the Reiatsu had already crossed hundreds of meters).

So yeah, this doesn't prove anything. Reiatsu isn't always RC, so this statement isn't applicable to EE = RC nonsense without lots of headcanon and just going against established mechanics of Bleach. This doesn't even prove the EE's connected to RC in the first place.

In both of these statements, he is referring to power, as in spirit energy or pressure.

One more reason for why Ichigo and Yhwach being unaffected by Aizen's EE (which is implied to be the product of his spiritual pressure) makes more sense, is because it's consistent with Zaraki stating that in a collision of two spiritual pressures, the stronger remains unaffected but the weaker gets affected, when Zaraki with his high spiritual power was not getting cut by Ichigo's lower spiritual power/sword.

Ichigo remaining unaffected by Aizen's EE is in line with that.

The Kenpachi statement does not support your argument at all. First, we objectively see Aizen is relative to Ichigo (burns Ichigo's arm in Deicide) and is relative to Yhwach (can cut through Yhwach black energy), so Ichigo and Yhwach are relative to Aizen. Second, Kenpachi's statement is referring to large gaps in power and is referring to non-hax related attacks (contextualized with a physical sword swing).

You didn't address the other parts of my argument, so I assume the "Don't come near me..." statement was your only contention.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Sure in a vacuum, power often can refer to raw strength. However, as shown in my prior post, the context for that statement is Aizen talking about his Existence Erasure . He uses his EE to erase someone and then states that they cannot withstand that power, that power being his EE. When I mentioned equal interp, it was in the sense of worst case scenario, equal interp renders both arguments invalid, but the context points to power referring to an ability. So, does you saying "a possibly rating isn't irresponsible" indicate support of a possibly rating?

I never said it refers to strength i said its holistic as for the possibly rating yes.

 

[Damage3245]

Sure in a vacuum, power often can refer to raw strength. However, as shown in my prior post, the context for that statement is Aizen talking about his Existence Erasure. He uses his EE to erase someone and then states that they cannot withstand that power, that power being his EE. When I mentioned equal interp, it was in the sense of worst case scenario, equal interp renders both arguments invalid, but the context points to power referring to an ability. So, does you saying "a possibly rating isn't irresponsible" indicate support of a possibly rating?

It looks like the context favors it being raw strength more than it referring to an ability. Has Aizen ever referred to his existence erasure as a "power" at any other point?

Every hax in Bleach is based on reiatsu, this does not prove it's AP based. Also, Arcker goes into detail here so I won't bother repeating it:

While all abilities in Bleach may be based on spiritual energy, I'm not so sure that there is anything saying that they're all based on spiritual pressure specifically.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

While all abilities in Bleach may be based on spiritual energy, I'm not so sure that there is anything saying that they're all based on spiritual pressure specifically.

So spirit energy is the fuel source, and spiritual pressure is the act of burning that fuel source. Like when you use an ability or make an attack that spirit energy is exerted as spiritual pressure.

It looks like the context favors it being raw strength more than it referring to an ability. Has Aizen ever referred to his existence erasure as a "power" at any other point?

The idea that he needs to reference EE as a power at another point in the series for my interpretation to hold is illogical. Aizen doesn’t need to have talked about EE in the past or future. He refers to his EE as a power in Deicide, as that mini arc is the only time he directly addresses his EE (he alludes to it in the TYBW). All that matters is that hax is referred to as powers in Bleach, that’s all I need for my point to hold, as you cannot objectively prove that he referred to his EE as AP.

 

[Hasty12345]

I happen to think it's fairly obvious he's talking about his EE when saying the word "power" in that one scan with the elderly guy and the Amaterasu victims in the background. I happen to think that thinking it means anything else is a stretch, the visual context makes it very apparent what the "power" is meant to be referring to.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m going with possibly Existence Erasure for this

 

[Damage3245]

I’m going with possibly Existence Erasure for this

I assume you mean Possible Resistance to EE? The EE itself is not just a 'Possible'.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I assume you mean Possible Resistance to EE? The EE itself is not just a 'Possible'.

Yes, forgot to type Resistance

 

[ImmortalDread]

Resistances aren't a black-and-white issue I feel. Ichigo and Yhwach simply having "feats" of not being erased by point-blank proximity to Aizen isn't all there is unless you go into it without thinking about context at all.

When Aizen says this: "Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power." That has an clear meaning to me:

Humans (AKA ordinary, non-spiritually-aware humans) are so "weak" spiritually that they can't sense spirit energy and they can't withstand Aizen's sheer power.

They're so much weaker, Aizen simply states "Any human who comes into contact with me will cease to exist."

It's true, that Aizen could simply be saying humans because of the context that the only people around him are humans but the implication is still there in Aizen's words that even though humans can't withstand his power, then other things could. This is not to say that all non-humans can withstand his power. Nobody is demanding that Aizen say "Oh, and Hollows also can't withstand my power."

It's just a matter of there being a certain level of 'strength' that a spirit can be before it can withstand being near Aizen's power.

If Aizen had said "Anyone who comes into contact with me will cease to exist." or "Everyone who comes into contact with me will cease to exist." That would be different. That would most definitely imply that there is no upper limit to Aizen's ability here and that a difference in spiritual energy isn't a factor here. But that isn't the case, so that's why I don't think it is good to assume that Aizen's "hax" here is limitless.

Now, we get another mention of this "withstanding spiritual energy" here, for the Don scene: "It seems you're unable to withstand my spiritual energy anymore."

This isn't Aizen flexing his Reiatsu in Don's direction. We saw that Aizen could do with that with a character like Grimmjow earlier in the arc when he was much weaker. If he was actually trying to crush Don deliberately, he would have done so much sooner. So this is merely Aizen's passive spiritual energy, and Don (although incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things) is still able to stand within Aizen's range for a short period of time before being unable to withstand it.

So, we know that this passive ability that erases things is a result of Aizen's sheer power. He says as much when he states that humans can't withstand it, and he points out that his Reiatsu is undiminished and merely kept close to him when he erases a Shinigami. "These restraints don't eliminate my spiritual pressure. They only keep it near me. I don't have to tell you what will happen if you try to touch me."

Taking this all together, the implications are clear. Somebody who is not monumentally weaker than Aizen will be able to withstand Aizen's sheer power / spiritual energy, and they would not be expected to be erased. When Ichigo grabbed Aizen by the face and dragged him off forcibly to a new location, Aizen was not surprised that Ichigo wasn't erased by him, he was just surprised that he was physically overpowered. While it's possible Aizen was just holding himself back at this point, he still doesn't even think of trying to erase Ichigo, not does it cross his mind that Ichigo is somehow unable to be erased.

Likewise when fighting Yhwach, when Aizen has no reason to be holding back. He's able to physically interact with Yhwach and not erase him. Never is it implied that erasure should be happening and Yhwach is simply resisting it. It just never takes place in the first place, and is never indicated to be able to take place at all.

I rambled on a bit longer than I intended to when I started writing this, but I wanted this to serve as a sort of summary in case any of my earlier points were lost or misunderstood. Hope you can check this out. @Agnaa @AKM sama @Arc7Kuroi

Damage, I disconnected from this thread, but this is literally my point from the start. But ofc haters will go against me and say I am unreasonable.
This is truly a canon reason. If someone is so weak that they can't sense his spiritual pressure, they get erased, this just does not apply to strong beings in the verse. But one note I need to mention Ichigo vs Aizen arc, if you noticed, even those humans who were near to him did not get erased at all.

My vote goes to neutral, likewise disagree.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Damage, I disconnected from this thread, but this is literally my point from the start. But ofc haters will go against me and say I am unreasonable.
This is truly a canon reason. If someone is so weak that they can't sense his spiritual pressure, they get erased, this just does not apply to strong beings in the verse. But one note I need to mention Ichigo vs Aizen arc, if you noticed, even those humans who were near to him did not get erased at all.

My vote goes to neutral, likewise disagree.

Arcker and I already refuted Damage's post afterwards.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Arcker and I already refuted Damage's post afterwards.

He did not reply afterward. My point still remains, whatever he mentioned EE in the series, he always referred it to humans. But let's wait for damage to reply.

 

[Damage3245]

Arcker and I already refuted Damage's post afterwards.

You responded to the post, but that doesn't necessarily make the post refuted.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything more to be said right now.

@Dread; the EE is not exclusive to humans, though maybe I misunderstood you

 

[Arcker123]

My point still remains, whatever he mentioned EE in the series, he always referred it to humans.

Ok

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He did not reply afterward. My point still remains, whatever he mentioned EE in the series, he always referred it to humans. But let's wait for damage to reply.

He has replied afterward... and your point is provably false, Aizen references his EE in context of Shunsui and Shinigami, as denoted in Arcker and I's further posts...

You responded to the post, but that doesn't necessarily make the post refuted.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything more to be said right now.

@Dread; the EE is not exclusive to humans, though maybe I misunderstood you

Unfortunately, unless we have moved to conclusions, failure to respond to my refutation is just going to be perceived as a concession. But if you're ready to conclude this thread, it's at 4 votes for giving at least possible resistances vs 3 against, so we can conclude and make the changes. Or continue the debate, either is fine by me.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You responded to the post, but that doesn't necessarily make the post refuted.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything more to be said right now.

@Dread; the EE is not exclusive to humans, though maybe I misunderstood you

Did he ever use his EE passively, except in humans?

I have only this scan and this one.