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Bleach Tier 5 Scaling
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Please formulate a proper response lmao
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First of all congratulations for all this work independently of everything.
I pretty much agree with the basis of everything. Although most of tiers depends on multiplier and sokyoku so I’ll give my thoughts on the scaling that can work regardless of the tier result. There is a lot to discuss.
Regarding the scaling chain they are correct, Unohana killed a stronger kenpachi multiple times, base Aizen is superior which make sense with the fact that Aizen is actually a lot stronger than his espada Cien Who stalemate kenpachi without eye patch for hours, Cien being massively stronger than every other espada, the same way Unohana was stronger then zaraki so it make sense With the actual scaling chain. Unohana is the only captain that can be near Aizen and Yama. Unohana and Yama never changed their power level. People above vasto lorde Ichigo, kenpachi, Unohana, base Aizen and Yama would scale. Which are not that much I think. But that can be discussed,
glad you explained the 1st fusion Aizen, no one scale to that, Aizen was not harmed, Aizen one shot all 3 of them when went serious, Aizen was just evolving To start the fusion. and the god Aizen and Dangai Ichigo are now undoubtedly god tier since it always was like from the obvious narrative, this should have happened long ago, good job.
regarding God tiers my opinion is that Hikone should scale to god Aizen level or Reio level, since god aizen level can be a causal aizen, while Muken Aizen at his strongest would win. God Aizen and hikone having similar statement for Reio make it the Scaling good for me. I don’t think base kenpachi is that strong To be already on some Yhwach level, statement can be adapted to the manga scaling to make it reasonable, so Im convinced this is the best scaling to apply for now You already know.
I may say other thing later.
I pretty much agree with the basis of everything. Although most of tiers depends on multiplier and sokyoku so I’ll give my thoughts on the scaling that can work regardless of the tier result. There is a lot to discuss.
Regarding the scaling chain they are correct, Unohana killed a stronger kenpachi multiple times, base Aizen is superior which make sense with the fact that Aizen is actually a lot stronger than his espada Cien Who stalemate kenpachi without eye patch for hours, Cien being massively stronger than every other espada, the same way Unohana was stronger then zaraki so it make sense With the actual scaling chain. Unohana is the only captain that can be near Aizen and Yama. Unohana and Yama never changed their power level. People above vasto lorde Ichigo, kenpachi, Unohana, base Aizen and Yama would scale. Which are not that much I think. But that can be discussed,
glad you explained the 1st fusion Aizen, no one scale to that, Aizen was not harmed, Aizen one shot all 3 of them when went serious, Aizen was just evolving To start the fusion. and the god Aizen and Dangai Ichigo are now undoubtedly god tier since it always was like from the obvious narrative, this should have happened long ago, good job.
regarding God tiers my opinion is that Hikone should scale to god Aizen level or Reio level, since god aizen level can be a causal aizen, while Muken Aizen at his strongest would win. God Aizen and hikone having similar statement for Reio make it the Scaling good for me. I don’t think base kenpachi is that strong To be already on some Yhwach level, statement can be adapted to the manga scaling to make it reasonable, so Im convinced this is the best scaling to apply for now You already know.
I may say other thing later.
EldemadeDityjon
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Bro this thread not even suggesting to upgrade all characters. Beside many characters can be scaled using multipliers with consistency.
The_Alxhemist
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This was way too funny, Arc to you this is simple??
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Lol great point regarding base aizen > cien. I completely forgot about how he submitted himself to aizen and worked under him as an espada despite his big ego.
So if the sokyoku scale gets accepted, wouldn't this also upgrade FKT V2 hollow mask ichigo, kisuke, isshin, gin and yoruichi to planetary as well since they scale to base aizen?
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Ginjo and Tsukishima are very much equals in CFYOW, at least to base Ginjo.
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The 1000× multiplier is fine to me. Narratively the transcendent power aizen got was to replace the soul king which is at least planet level. Aizen would need this massive power up to do so.
Transcendent amp would be far superior to bankai and resurrection. Which is from 5 to 100× amp. Considering ulqs 2nd resurrection would be 100× his base power
Transcendent amp would be far superior to bankai and resurrection. Which is from 5 to 100× amp. Considering ulqs 2nd resurrection would be 100× his base power
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Bankai ginjo was the one stated to "might be able to put up a decent fight against hikone (res)". So if the upgrade proposal is accepted then it'd only affect him in that state.
Btw there's a statement confirming (and backed up by feats) base CFYOW ginjo > CFYOW tsuki
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Funny considering ur tsukishima >>>> monster aizen scale
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The last kenpachi pre-TYBW zaraki killed was kenpachi kiganjo. He didn't kill azashiro but azashiro decided to flee from the battle due to kenny's power and aizen only gave azashiro a 10% chance of winning against zaraki despite knowing about his abilities
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Which characters exactly do you think should get the upgrade?
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I agree on getting basically all characters at tier 5 besides Ulquiorra which seems too much to bring at small planetary with CO but it could be just my incredulity I guess, also Kenpachi needing his shikai to cut the meteor would make him scale below planetary in that form right ?
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It would just upscale the AP of the meteor. We know that the AP of the projectiles that gremmy creates/imagines scale above their "normal" counterparts as kenpachi got burnt by his guns and missiles. The likes of which would barely be building level if not lower regularly lmao
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No the databook implies couldn't be sensed because of his power level niy state of being
攻撃を"理解”はできるが傷を負うことはない。対峙しても、同じ目線に在らず。
He can "understand" the attack but won't be harmed by it. Even in a stand-off, they won't be on the same level from his view.
"藍染の力は膨れ上がり、一心たちは既に感知できない。唯一感じ取れる一護ですら、心を奪われる程。
Aizen's power was swelling up, and Isshin (一心) and the others were already unable to sense it. Even Ichigo, the only one who can sense it, was taken aback by it."
Even base who is relative to shikai yamamoto is already stronger than isshin,uhrahara and kisuke. Aizen was clearly holding back he even blitzed all of them and could have easily killed them if he wanted. The moment he got serious he one shotted them all.
The databook stated twice was immune to their attacks.
死神から神の域へ移行しつつある藍染には、どんな攻撃も受けない。
最早、挑むこと自体が既に“身分違い"----
「崩玉」の犠牲になった仮面の軍勢 (ヴァイザード)を破面 (アランカル)もどき”と言い捨てる。「崩玉」の牲になった仮面の軍勢 (ヴァイザード)を破面 (アランカル)もどき”と言い捨てる。
己の目的達成には、弱き者が駒となるのは当然と考える、その冷淡さ。
幼い刻から強く、敗北を知らなかった藍染。初めて他者が己を超えた瞬間が訪れても、すぐには理解すらできず。
誰よりも強かった藍染は、誰にも理解されることが無い孤独の世界を抱えていた。強き者故の孤独は深く、哀しい。
"Aizen, having moved from the realm of the Shinigami to that of a God, is immune to attacks.
To even attack is already deemed as a "mistake"--
He dismisses the Vizords who fell victim to the "Hogyouku" as "Arrancar-like".
Such is Aizen's callousness that he deems it natural for the weak to be used as pawns to achieve his goal.
Aizen has been strong since his childhood and had thus never known defeat. Even when the moment came when someone surpassed him for the first time, he couldn't even understand it right away.
Aizen, who was stronger than anyone else, had a world of loneliness that no one could understand. The loneliness of the strong is deep and sorrowful."
Aizen already implied his reiatsu was so high it's in another dimension and he has to lower it so plp can feel.
A weaker Ichigo sensing Aizen is due to his power fluctuations. Which depends on his mental state and whites influence.
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And equal argument would be why does sasuke need chidori to stop a meteor? Instead of just using a single punch or sword strike.
Kenpachi used shikai Because it has more DC.
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Which is an assumption.
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Agree with the OP
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not really an assumption, its part of the point of the initial discussion with zangetsu before the training commences
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All I know is that the 1000x Multiplier is hella sus and I'm not sure it's direct enough to use
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If Transcendance worked as the OP proposed then all of the Captains would be impossible to sense by the likes of Ikkaku, Renji, Soul Society Arc Ichigo, etc.
The 1000x multiplier is the one thing I'm dead-set against right now.
In fact if characters could simply become Transcendent to each other and impossible to sense merely by being 1000 times stronger, then Isshin wouldn't have described what was happening to Aizen like how he couldn't understand what was going on. He simply would have said he was too powerful to sense.
The 1000x multiplier is the one thing I'm dead-set against right now.
In fact if characters could simply become Transcendent to each other and impossible to sense merely by being 1000 times stronger, then Isshin wouldn't have described what was happening to Aizen like how he couldn't understand what was going on. He simply would have said he was too powerful to sense.
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There are big issues with using FKT Bankai Ichigo as a debunk to the proposed multiplier, saying he can sense condom Aizen.
1) That would produce scaling like this: half power Bankai Ichigo < half power Striped Mask Bankai Ichigo ~ Res Yammy < base Aizen ~ Kisuke < Bankai Ichigo < Res Yammy. Which is contradicted by Aizen scaling above all the Espada and by the fact that Bankai Ichigo was stated by Aizen to be weaker than Aizen, hell Striped Mask Bankai Ichigo only damaged Aizen with a surprise attack and when Aizen was on guard he could deflect attacks form that Ichigo. “But Ichigo was mentally nerfed” he was mentally nerfed ever since he regained consciousness after killing Ulq.
2) Zangetsu is verbatim stated to have been so much stronger than Ichigo that he could’ve killed him whenever. So the reason Ichigo can sense Aizen is due to Zangetsu, however at the point in time prior to Dangai training Ichigo is nerfed by his own mental anguish and Zangetsu withholding his power.
Also, again regarding the “Condom Aizen got hurt by Kisuke and Isshin” refer to this:
1) That would produce scaling like this: half power Bankai Ichigo < half power Striped Mask Bankai Ichigo ~ Res Yammy < base Aizen ~ Kisuke < Bankai Ichigo < Res Yammy. Which is contradicted by Aizen scaling above all the Espada and by the fact that Bankai Ichigo was stated by Aizen to be weaker than Aizen, hell Striped Mask Bankai Ichigo only damaged Aizen with a surprise attack and when Aizen was on guard he could deflect attacks form that Ichigo. “But Ichigo was mentally nerfed” he was mentally nerfed ever since he regained consciousness after killing Ulq.
2) Zangetsu is verbatim stated to have been so much stronger than Ichigo that he could’ve killed him whenever. So the reason Ichigo can sense Aizen is due to Zangetsu, however at the point in time prior to Dangai training Ichigo is nerfed by his own mental anguish and Zangetsu withholding his power.
Also, again regarding the “Condom Aizen got hurt by Kisuke and Isshin” refer to this:
This multiplier cannot backscale because it is “at least 1000x” albeit unquantifiably so. As I explained earlier, it’s some way vaguely above what I proposed but not to quantifiable degree, and you should know there would be issues with using our fan calcs and numbers to place a value to the gap multiplier.
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It is clearly related to power tho, still neutral on the multiplier but being unable to feel a transcendent being is obviously because of power, not anything else.
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Arc seems to make sense to me.
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I don't see the issue with bankai ichigo being able to sense aizen whilst isshin and co couldn't. It would just mean he's stronger than either of them which isn't inconsistent as gin was basically "training" ichigo in order to use him as a contingency plan against aizen in case he failed. Which is basically confirmed by gin's final words before he died.
Multi's scan even implies that ichigo was stronger hence why it states "even ichigo"
Multi's scan even implies that ichigo was stronger hence why it states "even ichigo"
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I don't see how that would be the case. I'm not arguing for Ichigo to be comparable to Aizen.
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You’re saying Bankai Ichigo is more than 1000x weaker than Condom Aizen right?
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It's not an assumption i posted a scan of ichigo power level fluctuating from below base yammy level to beyond ulq.
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I'm saying that simply being more powerful does not make one impossible to sense.
The logic of using "Uryu could sense Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras which is 1000 x stronger than him thanks to stacked multipliers, therefore anyone who can't be sensed by anyone else is at least 1000 times stronger than them" isn't supported.
For something as verse-definining as that I'd want objective evidence, not assumptions based on how transcendance works.
An assumption like "Ichigo could only sense Aizen due to Zangetsu holding him back" isn't convincing for me either.
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If I'm not mistaken, Arc's main point is that even a 1000X gap isn't enough to become undetectable. Not that if you're only 1000X stronger then you're automatically undetectable
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That was because both white and ichigo were fighting for control. That wasn't happening during Deicide arc
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Didn’t base Ginjo and Tsukishima fought Grimmjow as equals in CFYOW? They also fought the female Quincies.
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This.
The thing is with Ichigo and Zangetsu is that it’s verbatim stated that Zangetsu is vastly superior to Ichigo. One’s power is derived from their Zanpakuto. It’d be like Ichigo’s actual power level in that arc is 10000, but he’s only using a power level of 10 because he doesn’t understand his powers. The whole point of that scene was to show that Ichigo had untapped potential that he wasn’t utilizing in combat, but he still had it. Or perhaps an Ichigo that isn’t mentally nerfing himself is simply superior to FKT Kisuke and Isshin.
Apple please read my OP, the only version of Ginjo scaling is a mentally amped Bankai Ginjo. Stop bringing up base Ginjo.
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Yes, the Kenpachi who was not allowed to release his Bankai on the Seireitei because it would swallowed it all. I think Kubo draw it on a sketch with the feat. I saw that sketch somewhere.
EDIT: Base Kenpachi killed a Captain whose Bankai could do this feat. According to the light novel the size of the crate was one that could fit the Seireitei in it.
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IIRC someone stated that Ginjo is the strongest out of the group and Ginjo wasn't in Bankai at that time.
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