Bleach- PTS Speed Downgrade

[KingTempest]

Umm...

I'll leave a link to the vs wiki fallacy page so you can see how fallacious this argument is
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy

I love how you can link the Wiki's Fallacy page and listen to them on that, but when I say read the laser justification page

Inconsistent comparison​

This is when someone compares something to multiple other things, but picks and chooses which things to compare it to so it seems superior to all of them, when it really is just slightly better than the ones with the lowest values in that field.

So first the color is irrelevant,shape is also irrelevant,and smoke even more irrelevant. "Star flash" reflects,is stated to be a beam of light. While the other attack does not reflect and is not stated to be a beam of light. So this is a inconsistent comparison by definition.

Well Captain Fallacy.
You're committing a fallacy of your own.

Argument from ignorance​

Spoiler: Definition

This is when someone states that since there is insufficient evidence of something, it cannot possibly be true.

Example: "I've never heard of an anime with stronger characters than DBZ, so therefore DBZ characters must be the strongest in all of anime."

The person in this example states that since they do not know of something personally, it cannot exist.

Since you haven't heard the attack be called "a light ray" or anything of the sort, you're assuming that it can't be one.

Another fallacy?

Package deal​

Spoiler: Definition

This is when someone claims that since A is true, and A is usually (but not necessarily) associated with B, then B is also true.

Example: "Samurai Deeper Kyo characters can move faster than light. That means they can also travel through time."

This argument assumes that since FTL speed and time travel are often interrelated, then they must be in this case, even if there is no evidence of this.

Change the last sentence up.
"This argument assumes that since Light speed and light are often interrelated, then they must be in this case, even if there is no evidence of this."

I can use this on you.

Hasty generalization​

This is an argument where someone takes an insufficient amount of evidence and attempts to form a conclusion from it, while ignoring or not being aware of contradictory evidence.

Your igonre the fact star flash acts differently than then star flash supernova

Can you explain how it acts differently?
I sent how it's similar above and you said "it doesn't matter"... so?

Correlation implies causation​

This type of argument claims that since A is associated with B, then A causes B.

Example: "Afterimages, blurry images, and speed lines usually are used in manga and comics to denote speed. Therefore, anything drawn with afterimages and blurry effects must be moving very fast."

So because they have the same color and shape their for they must be the same. This is what you just said.

Okay.
This attack is called light. Light in real life is called light.
Since light in real light is lightspeed, that means this light is lightspeed.

Correlation doesn't imply causation for you then. So you fall under the same fallacious argument.

That being said you committed 3 fallacies here

Damn, you too.

Throw association fallacy there too, assuming since light and lightspeed are usually related, your light follows the same qualities.

 

[KingTempest]

I do wanna say we know what happens when star flash ends because it literally hit renji’s sword so we see it stop, and it just reflects and burns..

We don't see the end of the attack, it's off panel

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Star Flash Supernova is a different attack.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I don't think whether or not it is the same attack as the issue

My issue is is it not simply the same reishi?

I haven't necessarily seen evidence that the beam from his head somehow changes the composition of his reishi on some atomic level or something

The fact that it causes explosions and stuff like that with one move while still being the same type of reishi raises a lot of questions

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What you're asking here is ridiculous. “Type of reishi” what does this mean?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Mask's attacks are made from reishi correct?

Going under that notion and considering that his schrift does not at all entitle separate unique abilities, the composition of his attacks should not differ from each other that much.

Under that notion starflash behaving like it is brings into question whether or not the light beam is actually truly light

 

[LordGinSama]

Yes, because kamehameha is inherently different than super kamehameha just because an extra word is added to the base name to indicate that it's on a larger scale? Bad argument.

You really gotta stop with these faulty Dragon Ball comparison. The difference between the Kamehameha and the Super edition is that of Attack Potency and AoE / Range, the Super Kamehameha doesn't give the beam any other notable properties, unlike here with Star Beam and Star Nova Beam. One is a beam based attack that travels in a straight line, whereas the Nova edition involves Mask uses his own pshycial attack, bumrushing his opponent.



Also KingTempest needs to calm down with the condescending attitude. The second we get slightly aggressive we get shit for it, but he gets to act like that despite there being two admins present? Nice.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Everything is made from reishi.

His schrift has nothing to do with that star flash. His shrift only revives him and makes him stronger.

Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova still aren't the same attack. The only similarity is a star which he drew in the sky and the color. So trying to use this attack as some sort of counter is pretty desperate.

 

[KingTempest]

Also KingTempest needs to calm down with the condescending attitude. The second we get slightly aggressive we get shit for it, but he gets to act like that despite there being two admins present? Nice.

I'll take fault here.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I would say his schrift not having any thing to do with his move set is worse actually

He just genetically uses reishi for attacks. Why would the composition of reishi be any different from one another

 

[AKUTO123]

Sunlight made from reishi is the same as normal sunlight, so making it out of reishi doesn't change anything. If the light attack made of reishi does not make it light, it is like saying that toshiro uses reishi, not ice, it does not show that the sun made from reishi does not show that there is no light, I want to say again that the sun made from reishi is not different from the normal sun, using reishi does not change anything.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What is the composition of reishi? Can you show me a scan or something explaining your argument.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

He just genetically uses reishi for attacks.

My guy, everything on SS is made out of reishi, light, earth, fire. Attacks etc.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'll take fault here.

Yeah just chill out a bit, nothing too serious.

I would say his schrift not having any thing to do with his move set is worse actually

He just genetically uses reishi for attacks. Why would the composition of reishi be any different from one another

I fail to see how it being Reishi would disqualify the material being LS, it's Spiritual Particles which are intangible to humans.

 

[Cyberblader90]

What I mean to say is I'm pretty sure we all agree that the way the star flash move operates is not in any shape or form indicative of real light

If we all agree with that premise, and then we agree with the notion that he's using the same reishi for the beam of light attack, then would it not follow that it most likely has the same composition as the other attack?

Granted I do think reishi can take on different states and be manipulated differently but usually with preset abilities that do something like that, like kido or different abilities of a zanpakuto.

Mask doesn't benefit from any inverse system like that. His abilities are just generic blasts from reishi

 

[AnonymousBlank]

1. If its the same thing, it would be called the same thing. A different name means its a different technique. Different techniques don't share properties unless they are stated or shown to have the same properties. SF and SFS do not show the same properties.
2. You clearly missed the point of those examples. Those show that the usage of the move doesn't change just because of a powered up state which is what you argued. If you are going to just spout pointless arguments, don't bother in the first place.
3. It literally does when your point is that a powered up state means the attack is performed differently and is greater in scale.
4. Okay so you can't prove it explodes which means the attacks do different things. The beam of light doesn't explode while the one that isn't a beam of light very much does. For comparison, an explosion by Kubo. Why does scale make a laser (which is white bar) look different besides size?

On this reishi argument that popped up, people can see in SS. Reishi can be light, just like it can be ice, dirt, air etc. Normal matter cannot exist in SS yet Mayuri built a lab that shines light everywhere with clothes that emit light, and Aizen created a lab that produces sunlight. Reishi comprised light that functions like normal light exists so why are people trying to say it doesn't function or have the properties of normal light?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What I mean to say is I'm pretty sure we all agree that the way the star flash move operates is not in any shape or form indicative of real light

But we don't agree. We agree that SFS operates isn't indicative of real light.

If we all agree with that premise, and then we agree with the notion that he's using the same reishi for the beam of light attack, then would it not follow that it most likely has the same composition as the other attack?

Every attack is made of reishi and they have extremely varying properties.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'm not sure why getting a stat amp would substantially change the composition of the attacks?

I'll try and respond to the rest of the points after work

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Mask doesn't benefit from any inverse system like that. His abilities are just generic blasts from reishi

Idk if u knew this but quincy are unique in the fact that they can fully control and manipulate reishi so they have a system of their own

 

[Cyberblader90]

Idk if u knew this but quincy are unique in the fact that they can fully control and manipulate reishi so they have a system of their own

I'm aware they manipulate it. But how does that equate to complete restructuring of the composition for a move in his base to then another move that is simply the release of reishi as an attack

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I'm aware they manipulate it. But how does that equate to complete restructuring of the composition for a move in his base to then another move that is simply the release of reishi as an attack

I was just answering the part where u said they have no system

 

[Cyberblader90]

Gotcha

 

[KingTempest]

1. If its the same thing, it would be called the same thing. A different name means its a different technique. Different techniques don't share properties unless they are stated or shown to have the same properties. SF and SFS do not show the same properties.

Vaporize.
Star Shape.
Star Shaped Crater.
Same properties.
Your argument is an argument from ignorance. Since SF hasn't shown some properties, it means that it doesn't have them, and because SF doesn't have them (via your logic) and SFS has them, they're completely different attacks.

1. You clearly missed the point of those examples. Those show that the usage of the move doesn't change just because of a powered up state which is what you argued. If you are going to just spout pointless arguments, don't bother in the first place.

This is literally a powered up version of the previous attack, which is both of our points.

1. It literally does when your point is that a powered up state means the attack is performed differently and is greater in scale.

Performed differently doesn't even mean that much if they're extremely similar.
Getsuga Tensho is one slash, Getsuga Juujishou is two slashes. Are we gonna say that they're completely different attacks?
Ichigo fires a bunch of different types of Getsugas in different ways. Are those all different attacks?

1. Okay so you can't prove it explodes which means the attacks do different things. The beam of light doesn't explode while the one that isn't a beam of light very much does. For comparison, an explosion by Kubo. Why does scale make a laser (which is white bar) look different besides size?

Ok.
Where is the end result of star flash?
Prove the end result of star flash isn't an explosion.

 

[Reio35]

Im not committing any fallacies as mask de masculines '"star flash" meets a few of the vs wiki Light Speed standards

 

[KingTempest]

Im not committing any fallacies as mask de masculines '"star flash" meets a few of the vs wiki Light Speed standards

Via my CRT, 1.

1 ≠ few

 

[Cyberblader90]

was given permission by arc7 to post his response to the reflection point

"We are only shown one viewpoint of Renji blocking the shot so I dont think the incidence angle argument is too strong because perspective could be warping the perceived angle of reflection from said vantage point."

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

was given permission by arc7 to post his response to the reflection point

U know arc?

 

[Cyberblader90]

U know arc?

As of today
I am neutral on his post but I wanted to share it with his permission

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Vaporize.
Star Shape.
Star Shaped Crater.
Same properties.
Your argument is an argument from ignorance. Since SF hasn't shown some properties, it means that it doesn't have them, and because SF doesn't have them (via your logic) and SFS has them, they're completely different attacks.

Just because an explosion and a laser both vaporise doesn’t make them the same.

A star shaped beam doesn’t matter when that is the characters theme. Literally in the name of all of his powers which all involve star shapes.

No star shaped crater for SF or SFS when the former doesn’t leave a crater and the latter blew up the area.

Huh? What ignorance? I am arguing differences we know of and see on panel. I haven’t argued from ignorance once.

This is literally a powered up version of the previous attack, which is both of our points.

No it isn’t and you know it. I have been saying they are two separate attacks this whole time and have never once said they are the same so stop strawmanning me. We see SF performed twice and it does the same thing both times. We see SFS performed once and it doesn’t do the same thing as SF so it’s not the same.

Performed differently doesn't even mean that much if they're extremely similar.
Getsuga Tensho is one slash, Getsuga Juujishou is two slashes. Are we gonna say that they're completely different attacks?
Ichigo fires a bunch of different types of Getsugas in different ways. Are those all different attacks?

False equivalence.

1. Yes they are different attacks but not completely different. All but Getsugas are performed by releasing energy from the tip of the blade and always shown to blow up and smash things.
2. Jujisho blatantly shows Ichigo releasing energy from the tip of his sword with the only difference being that he has two swords to do so.
3. The only other Getsuga is the black Getsuga, which works the same way as the normal one but is a explicitly stated and shown to be a stronger one.
4. If someone (not necessarily you) tries to argue Gran Rey Getsuga is a GT, it’s not. The move is blatantly called GRC but with GT fused into it to make it stronger.

Ok.
Where is the end result of star flash?
Prove the end result of star flash isn't an explosion.

So you want me to prove a negative? That ain’t how it works. Yuka tried this shit on you and both you and Matt rightfully called him out on his crap so don’t try pull this shit on me.

 

[AKM sama]

To recapitulate my main issues:

1. The statement used to justify it being light is as follows:

"The villain shall die... by the hero's beam of light"

Notice the use of extravagant language here. The villain, the hero, the hero's light. This could be easily interpreted as being symbolic and used for hype alone. This isn't stated as some matter-of-fact thing. This is literally a "hero" telling a "villain" (associated with "darkness") that he will be defeated by his "light". If it would have been something like "beam made of light", it would have been much more matter-of-fact.

This sentence has the same energy as "the villain shall be defeated by the hero's punch of justice". It's not meant to be taken literally. The idea that this is light speed should be rejected due to this point alone, as the premise itself isn't strong.

The only counterargument to this point is "it's literal just because".

---

2. Even assuming the premise holds somewhat of a value, it would establish the beam being artificial light or a fictional "light beam". It would need to fulfill at least a few more conditions to be treated as real light speed.

It arguably fulfills one condition, that being of reflection. Which is not enough on its own according to standards.
The argument that it fulfills the fourth condition as well, that is, being stated to be "made of light" is false.
As pointed out in another thread, even something that is called "laser" has the same meaning as "beam of light", i.e. both are light. In fact the page clearly notes that a "light beam" needs to fulfill said conditions. Just how laser needs to fulfill the specific condition of being stated as "made of photons/light" because fictional lasers are often not real lasers. The same goes for light That's why the word "made" is used to depict how that condition is a separate condition.

That is to say, being called "beam of light" makes it a "light beam" and a "light beam" needs to fulfill the condition of being stated to be "composed/made of light" in a matter of fact sense.

The only counterargument to this point is "be lenient, other verses do it too". Even after being lenient, both points still fall under the arguable territory. Because, as pointed out previously, the statement is not reliable, and it's not uncommon for energy attacks in fiction to be deflected by a character holding a metal sword.

Therefore, even if we consider both points, they both are weak. For a series with no other feat on this level, it needs to bring something solid on the table to get accepted. (And you can always make other threads to address other verses' cases and call me there, if what you are saying is true.)

---

3. KingTempest brought up some anti-feats regarding the same energy attack / technique performed by the same character. It resembles the aforementioned technique in almost every way, be it the color, the star shaped pattern, the impact crater, vaporization effect, etc. It even has the same base name, with only an extra word. Similar attack in every way, yet it bends and has different speed, which destroys the notion of it being real light.

The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.

Also, it behaving differently (in the sense of direction and speed) is the entire point of the anti-feat. The same point that is being refuted by bringing up the anti-feat cannot be used to counter the anti-feat. That's circular logic. "This similar attack is working differently in given manner" is not countered by "since it is working differently in given manner, it is not a similar attack".

---

All in all, I don't see how this notion that it is real light with real light speed can be accepted without making absurd assumptions on top of more assumptions at every level, as we proceed to down from point 1 to point 3. When it is contentious on so many levels and you need to "explain" at length by making assumptions at every step of the way, that in itself is proof of this entire notion being insufficiently supported.

Due to these reason, I am against treating it as real light, or being real light speed.

 

[Damage3245]

AKM's conclusions on this topic make the most sense to me. I am in agreement that this should not be treated as real light / real lightspeed based on those points.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

To recapitulate my main issues:

1. snip

If this was the only thing, I would agree. But it’s not.

The only counterargument to this point is "it's literal just because".

The counter argument is that the “beam of light” functions like a beam of light would by reflecting off of the sword, travelling straight in both uses and vaporises like a laser would.

2. Even assuming the premise holds somewhat of a value, it would establish the beam being artificial light. It would need to fulfill at least a few more conditions to be treated as light speed.

If by “artificial” you are referring to everything being made of reishi, you now want to dismiss every single feat in the verse that doesn’t matter involve matter in the WotL. Artificial just means man made or not naturally occurring in nature. Guess what? Irl physics for Bleach are made by the SK. Explain why he made a whole other type of physics with different laws?

snip

Been over this part. By definition, the word “of” means to originate from or be made of something.

The only counterargument to this point is "be lenient, other verses do it too". Even after being lenient, both points still fall under the arguable territory. Because, as pointed out previously, the statement is not reliable, and it's not uncommon for energy attacks in fiction to be deflected by a character holding a metal sword.

Did those energy attacks also show the properties of a laser and be stated to be made of light? If not, they don’t matter. If they did, please present them.

snip

Everything besides color that KingTempest brought up is wrong. He is attempting to conflate two attacks with different names, different feats, different usage and different properties to each other and arbitrarily applying the properties of one to the other with no evidence and asking people to prove a negative when they disagree.

The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.

An absurd overgeneralisation of the counter argument. The only similarities are the color and the beam having a star shape. The first is irrelevant when all Quincy attacks have that color and the star shape is the characters visual them with every one of his attacks having said star shapes

Also, it behaving differently (in the sense of direction and speed) is the entire point of the anti-feat. The same point that is being refuted by bringing up the anti-feat cannot be used to counter the anti-feat. That's circular logic. "This similar attack is working differently in given manner" is not countered by "since it is working differently in given manner, it is not a similar attack".

This would matter if they were actually the same attack. As is, you are just listing off more differences between the two attacks.

All in all, I don't see how this notion that it is real light with real light speed can be accepted without making absurd assumptions on top of more assumptions at every level, as we proceed to down from point 1 to point 3.

The absurd assumptions all come from those arguing the two are the same attacks.

When it is contentious on so many levels and you need to "explain" at length by making assumptions at every step of the way, that in itself is proof of this entire notion being insufficiently supported.

All contention arises from people trying to conflate two separate attacks with numerous differences, hence the lengthy explanations of why the people in question don’t know what they are talking about.

 

[AKM sama]

travelling straight in both uses and vaporises like a laser would.

These are not requirements so this point is moot.

If by “artificial” you are referring to everything being made of reishi, you now want to dismiss every single feat in the verse

That's not the argument. The argument is that it needs to fulfill conditions to be treated as real, which it is not doing. Don't misconstrue the point.

the people in question don’t know what they are talking about.

Not an argument.

I'll ignore the rest because everything else has already been discussed.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

1. These are things lasers do and the page even says they support light/lasers being actual light with irl properties, specifically light speed.
2. Then what does artificial light mean? If I misconstrued the point, explain it.
3. It does matter though. If someone doesn’t know how physics works and demonstrably shows as much, are you going to trust them when they say physics works like X on the very topic where they show they don’t know what they are talking about? Why am I even asking? That is what just happened. KingTempest is arguing things that are not the case as shown on panel and you just agreed with him.

 

[AKM sama]

1. Again, just because lasers do that doesn't make it the requirement. I am strictly talking about the requirements that need to be fulfilled according to the standards, and those are not that.
2. "Light" needs to be proven to be real and travelling at real light speed. That's the point. Simply being called "light" isn't enough when it is not coming from a natural source.

 

[LordGinSama]

Why is Star Nova even being brought into this? Again it's not the same ability, one involves Mask simply launching the Star Beam, whereas Star Beam Super Nova involves Mask flying around, forming a massive star from his Reishi wings (which is where the bending is coming from btw, not the beam itself bending.) before flying above it and shooting the beam.



Star Beam is just that, a beam whereas a lot more is involved with The Nova Variant, flying, tracing patterns in the air with his Reishi Wings, etc.

This is the equivalent of me saying a Rasengan and a Futon Rasenshuriken are now the same exact ability and now share the same properties, despite them being different abilities.

 

[LordGinSama]

These are not requirements so this point is moot.

False, real light doesn't bend, it only travels in a straight direction meaning a beam traveling straight is another indication of the light being legitimate. And lasers, do in fact produce massive amounts of heat, again another indication of real light.

That's not the argument. The argument is that it needs to fulfill conditions to be treated as real, which it is not doing. Don't misconstrue the point.

Which it does.


* Travels is a straight line

*Stated to be of made of light by a knowledgeable character (That Hyperbole line doesn't work either as that's just the way Mask talks, it's literally his entire character.)

* Reflects off of metallic surfaces


* Produces heat much like a real laser.



These points are blatantly being ignored, the beams meets more than one standard of it being real light.

 

[AKM sama]

Which part of "those are not the requirements according to the standards" are you not getting? Literally any energy attack can travel straight and produce heat, these are not even in our standards. You need to revise the standards if you think these should be included.

 

[LordGinSama]

What point of "those are not the requirements according to the standards" are you not getting?

Bull.


This is not a full list of qualities that can qualify/disqualify a feat as a true laser/light beam, but they are what is taken as basic by this wiki.


okay so let's just ignore real life psychics just because you say so? The page disagrees with you as well, so I'd suggest reading the page itself before enforcing your own opinion. The requirements listed on the page aren't the only requirements and or criterias for something being lightspeed, just the basics are listed. So let's not be ignorant of the proof your currently being given.

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally any energy attack can travel straight and produce heat, these are not even in our standards. You need to revise the standards if you think these should be included.

Yeah and luckily for us we aren't on the topic of an enegry attack, but rather a beam of light. And that's exactly how light and lasers work, them not being on the page as a list of requirements is irrelevant to this discussion and only serves as an attempt to sweep this under the rug. It's basic science, which the page itself even notes which is what your relying your arguement on.