Bleach- PTS Speed Downgrade

[Axxtentacle]

It reflecting leads me to believe that the statement about it being light isn't hyperbole.

 

[AKM sama]

No Yuka, the burden of proof is on you to give sufficient evidence to prove it is light speed. According to our standards, it meets a single requirement and that's it. The statement itself isn't reliable with the way it is said. So there is insufficient evidence. It's my job to ask the positive side to provide more evidence.

 

[AKM sama]

It reflecting leads me to believe that the statement about it being light isn't hyperbole.

Many energy attacks can be "deflected" with a sword. This is a weak argument and is proof of nothing.

 

[KingTempest]

I have a question.
This is the attack correct?

A light blue ray of "light".

How come his light breaks 2 requirements?
1. It bends/changes direction.
2. It's has different speeds?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Renji literally got 100x faster and the explanation is "he trained". Really?

Tbf we've seem much bigger random power jumps with training before.

Getting a “beam of light” claim and stopping there shouldn’t count as anything. It’s the claimers burden of proof to prove “Beam of light” equates to being made out of actual natural light.

If the Ray of light thing was the only piece of evidence I'd agree. Since plenty of energy blasts can be described as light beams. But there's more evidence than just the one apparently.

 

[Reio35]

I have a question.
This is the attack correct?

A light blue ray of "light".

How come his light breaks 2 requirements?
1. It bends/changes direction.
2. It's has different speeds?

What the last scan is a entirely different attack. Were is it shown changing speeds. Light can bend and change direction

 

[YukaSama4]

No Yuka, the burden of proof is on you to give sufficient evidence to prove it is light speed. According to our standards, it meets a single requirement and that's it. The statement itself isn't reliable with the way it is said. So there is insufficient evidence. It's my job to ask the positive side to provide more evidence.

let's be honest here, every statement in every verse can be interpreted in different ways, but are all of those ways valid if nothing supports them from the manga?

Let's take a look at the manga please and test the statement with our standards and then tell me what you think about it ok?
____________________________________

So firstly I want to address if the manga agrees with you or no, firstly this isn't the first time something gets called light in bleach, Cero is an example but we didn't accept it as true light because it clearly not, and it's not meant to be because there are many anti feats against it.

The beam here is called light so now we need to test this claim
since we have standards in the wiki which shall be the judge here between us and I'm sure you are ok with them.

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
• The beam reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror
• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources
• It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source
• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera

So the beam reflected by a sword which fulfills the second requirement, which also can tell that the author really meant it to be light because it has reflected in the same way the light from the sun reflected on Jugrams sword, and all support my claim that it should be used literally.
The beam was called "light" but you say that it should not be taken as proof, It's a good point as I said but I have reasons to support my claim that this statement is valid and should work here, I will introduce them to you using our standards
firstly it reflected which meets one requirement
secondly, we have standards other standards that show if it's light or not.

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)

in fact, all of them are supporting my claim. so finally I'm asking you very nicely if you can support your interpretation of the manga or use our standards to give reasons for your claim because really, a claim without evidence doesn't require evidence to debunk, I cant come here and open a thread saying that the statement about the universe getting destroyed by Beerus and Goku should not be taken without a reason or evidence right? this is how logic works. So I just put reasons from the manga and from our standards to support my claim that the statement was really meant to be taken literally and I'm asking you, can you please do the same to prove your interpretation?

 

[Axxtentacle]

That's a completely different attack, I don't think that's a fair comparison to make.

 

[Arcker123]

what attack?

 

[KingTempest]

What the last scan is a entirely different attack.

The attack name is called.

Which is the same attack as before, just on a much larger scale.

Were is it shown changing speeds.

It stopped moving and stood in mid air before he sent it down.
Which means it was at rest.

Light can bend and change direction

Our standards.
Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)

 

[AKM sama]

I prefer not just using all the "beam of light" things unless you can make a proper argument for why it should work in your verse. There's no difference between that and something called a laser for speed purposes, so I don't see why one should fit the standard while the other shouldn't be.

According to Wok, both "laser" and "beam of light" mean almost the same thing in the sense that they are "light". If a laser has to fulfill the requirement of being stated to be made of photons/light separately, then the same goes for "beam of light".

Which is what I was saying in the start. Although, this is pointless now that the statement itself doesn't seem reliable/literal. And apparently this same light can bend and be at rest.

 

[Damage3245]

KingTempest's new evidence from the colored pages of the manga cement my view that this should not be treated as lightspeed.

 

[Reio35]

The mask renji fought was at minimum 100s of times stronger than Captain level fighters. And renji in shikai was comparable to him. Renjis bankai would be another 10x making him 1000s of times stronger and faster

 

[YukaSama4]

Which is the same attack as before, just on a much larger scale.
It stopped moving and stood in mid air before he sent it down.
Which means it was at rest.

No? where it was stated to be the same attack??

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I have a question.
This is the attack correct?

A light blue ray of "light".

How come his light breaks 2 requirements?
1. It bends/changes direction.
2. It's has different speeds?

1. Color is irrelevant. Are you going to say that infra red and ultra violet are not light speed? Those are two different colored frequencies of light.
2. Those are two separate attacks.
3. Having different speeds for two different attacks is irrelevant.

 

[YukaSama4]

The mask renji fought was at minimum 100s of times stronger than Captain level fighters. And renji in shikai was comparable to him. Renjis bankai would be another 10x making him 1000s of times stronger and faster

bruh?

 

[YukaSama4]

1. Color is irrelevant. Are you going to say that infra red and ultra violet are not light speed? Those are two different colored frequencies of light.
2. Those are two separate attacks.
3. Having different speeds for two different attacks is irrelevant.

he is saying that its the same attack which i don't know from where did he bring tbh

 

[AKM sama]

The attack is literally called by the same name. By the same character. Has the same color, same impact pattern and everything.

But because it doesn't fulfill the standards now, it's different?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So you are saying "Star Flash = Star Flash Supernova"? Aight, no point in even discussing if that is the case.

 

[KingTempest]

No? where it was stated to be the same attack??

Look at the name of the attack, the shape of the attack, the user of the attack, and the color of the attack. Clearly the same exact material.

1. Color is irrelevant. Are you going to say that infra red and ultra violet are not light speed? Those are two different colored frequencies of light.
2. Those are two separate attacks.
3. Having different speeds for two different attacks is irrelevant.

1. When did I use Color as a counterpoint? I used color to show that they were made out of the same material.
2. Can you prove they are completely different? The only thing that I see that is different is the size.
3. Again, above.

 

[AKM sama]

So you are saying "Star Flash = Star Flash Supernova"? Aight, no point in even discussing if that is the case.

Yes, because kamehameha is inherently different than super kamehameha just because an extra word is added to the base name to indicate that it's on a larger scale? Bad argument.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

1. My bad, misunderstood your point.
2. They have different names, used differently, scale is different, appearance is different, doesn't have the same statements or feats etc
3. Above.

 

[Arcker123]

Maybe because two abilities operate nothing alike and are called different names, they aren't the same

 

[AKM sama]

Or maybe, it was never real light to begin with like how there are many things that throw a big fat wrench on the idea.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are we seriously trying to argue that a single word being added into an attack name changes the whole entirety of the move from what it was before?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Yes, because kamehameha is inherently different than super kamehameha just because an extra word is added to the base name to indicate that it's on a larger scale? Bad argument.

But its not, Super Kamehameha is performed the same way as Kamehameha with the only difference being that its a stronger Kamehameha.

Star Flash has statements, feats, performance and set up in addition to just the name.

 

[YukaSama4]

@KingTempest You went to read the chapter, and then brought this pic, which literally happened before this, You do understand that u twisted the context of the chapter and made it appear as if its the opposite didn't you?? anyway this the chapter, please read and tell me whats Tempest just did there

 

[Cyberblader90]

So given the stuff that was recently posted

Are we extrapolating that somehow mask is changing the composition for reishi for one specific move and when he uses reishi for his other moves they have a different composition?

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think that kind of interpretation requires a little more evidence per se

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Are we seriously trying to argue that a single word being added into an attack name changes the whole entirety of the move from what it was before?

No. We are saying that the move working differently, being performed differently, having another name and one not having the properties and statement of the other means they are different.

 

[Reio35]

Look at the name of the attack, the shape of the attack, the user of the attack, and the color of the attack. Clearly the same exact material.

1. When did I use Color as a counterpoint? I used color to show that they were made out of the same material.
2. Can you prove they are completely different? The only thing that I see that is different is the size.
3. Again, above.

1. The reshi trial he created from his cap was NOT even apart of the attack. He didnt use "star flash super nova" till after that star was made.

2. Not the exact same attack one is "star flash" The other is "star flash super nova" thats like saying rasnagan and rasnsnshirkin are the something. We know they both have diffrent properties

3. This argument is based entirely on a assumptions fallacy/begging the question. So it can easily be dismissed

 

[KingTempest]

1. My bad, misunderstood your point.
2. They have different names, used differently, scale is different, appearance is different, doesn't have the same statements or feats etc
3. Above.

1. All is good.
2. Same name w/ a different prefix, used differently because the user is in a powered up state to do it, scale is different because he is stronger, has similar feats (leaves a star shaped crater in the target, vaporizes it's target and exerts smoke from wherever it's hit, moves in a straight line,

 

[KingTempest]

1. The reshi trial he creater from his cap was NOT even apart of the attack. He didnt use "star flash super nova" till after that star was made.

So... was the reishi there just decoration? What was it part of then?

2. Not the exact same attack one is "star flash" The other is "star flash super nova" thats like saying rasnagan and rasnsnshirkin are the something. We know they both have diffrent properties

Wrong technique. Rasenshuriken adds a completely foreign nature, all this does is add size.
A better example would be Rasengan and Big Ball Rasengan. All it does is bring size, just like this technique.

3. This argument is based entirely on a assumptions fallacy/begging the question. So it can easily be dismissed

It has the same name w/ a prefix prior.
Leaves a smoke trail and a star crater just like the previous technique.
Comes from the same user.
The color is the exact same. We know the color is the exact same because if you're not colorblind or visually impaired, you can see that they have the same shade of blue.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest You went to read the chapter, and then brought this pic, which literally happened before this, You do understand that u twisted the context of the chapter and made it appear as if its the opposite didn't you?? anyway this the chapter, please read and tell me whats Tempest just did there

You didn't even explain what I did wrong. All you said was

1. You opened the book
2. Looked at the page
3. Turned the page
4. Saw the page
5. Went to the previous page
6. Took a picture of the page

Can you elaborate on what is wrong?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

prove why its not true from the same manga please, I want a proof from the manga that this statement isn't true

Not how it works you have to prove its true.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So much wrong with this.

1. So different name meaning its not the same move.
2. A powered up state doesn't mean anything for a move. Getsuga is used by Ichigo swinging his word and releasing reiatsu from the tip in Bankai and with his Mask, Cero Oscuras is still the same black cero when Ulquiorra uses it in R1 and R2, GRC is still performed by mixing blood into your Cero in base and R1, El Directo is still an energy beam from Chad's right fist when he punches forward regardless of his arm. Go get scans from Bleach where the same move with the same name looks, works and is used differently depending on their forms.
3. Scale is different because he had to make a giant star to shoot the beam. Show me Star Flash being bigger when it is fired from his forehead.
4. A star shape is not the feat. SF reflects and only vaporises with no explosion of any kind. SFS blows up the area.
5. Part of your argument is literally that it doesn't move in a straight line.

 

[KingTempest]

So much wrong with this.

Spoiler: Debunk Meeeeeeeeeeee

1. So different name meaning its not the same move.

It's not like saying "kamehameha" vs "rasengan". It's the same name w/ a prefix.
Are you really trying to say that "star flash" and "star flash supernova" aren't the exact same thing?

1. A powered up state doesn't mean anything for a move.

I know, that's what I'm saying. A powered up state doesn't change the quality of the move.

1. Getsuga is used by Ichigo swinging his word and releasing reiatsu from the tip,

Yup, just like above.

1. Cero Oscuras is still the same black cero when Ulquiorra uses it in R1 and R2,

Never said it wasn't.

1. GRC is still performed by mixing blood into your Cero,

That's different because we know it's been tweaked by blood.

1. El Directo is still an energy beam from Chad's right fist when he punches forward regardless of his arm.

...Okay?

1. Go get scans from Bleach where the same move with the same name looks, works and is used differently depending on their forms.

Which side are you on..?

1. Scale is different because he had to make a giant star to shoot the beam.

I know.

1. Show me Star Flash being bigger when it is fired from his forehead.

Don't need to because it doesn't affect your point or mine.

1. A star shape is not the feat. SF reflects and only vaporises with no explosion of any kind. SFS blows up the area.

Well, SF burns through the target and travels god knows how far. We don't see what it does after a certain distance. Maybe it does explode, maybe it doesn't.
SFS doesn't blow up anything actually, it just appears like that because of the scale.

1. Part of your argument is literally that it doesn't move in a straight line.

Let me tweak my last statement.
"When it's fired, it moves straight".

 

[SilentBob34]

I do wanna say we know what happens when star flash ends because it literally hit renji’s sword so we see it stop, and it just reflects and burns..

 

[Reio35]

So... was the reishi there just decoration? What was it part of then?

Wrong technique. Rasenshuriken adds a completely foreign nature, all this does is add size.
A better example would be Rasengan and Big Ball Rasengan. All it does is bring size, just like this technique.

It has the same name w/ a prefix prior.
Leaves a smoke trail and a star crater just like the previous technique.
Comes from the same user.
The color is the exact same. We know the color is the exact same because if you're not colorblind or visually impaired, you can see that they have the same shade of blue.

I'll leave a link to the vs wiki fallacy page so you can see how fallacious this argument is
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy

1.

Inconsistent comparison​

This is when someone compares something to multiple other things, but picks and chooses which things to compare it to so it seems superior to all of them, when it really is just slightly better than the ones with the lowest values in that field.

So first the color is irrelevant,shape is also irrelevant,and smoke even more irrelevant. "Star flash" reflects,is stated to be a beam of light. While the other attack does not reflect and is not stated to be a beam of light. So this is a inconsistent comparison by definition.

Hasty generalization​

This is an argument where someone takes an insufficient amount of evidence and attempts to form a conclusion from it, while ignoring or not being aware of contradictory evidence.

Your igonre the fact star flash acts differently than then star flash supernova

Correlation implies causation​

This type of argument claims that since A is associated with B, then A causes B.

Example: "Afterimages, blurry images, and speed lines usually are used in manga and comics to denote speed. Therefore, anything drawn with afterimages and blurry effects must be moving very fast."

So because they have the same color and shape their for they must be the same. This is what you just said.


That being said you committed 3 fallacies here

 

[Damage3245]

Correlation implies causation

Damn, if we want to go down that route than Mask calling his attack a beam of light is just as bad in trying to argue that it must be lightspeed.