Bleach Multipliers

[Peter1129]

So yeah I feel like we should really get this over with. See here for multiplier examples.

Gentei Kaijo
Gentei Kaijo seals 80% of their power and upon release quintuples their power. It's a simple multiplier so it should be accepted.

Bankai
So yeah this thing agai. I think we should just go with the low ball and use the 5x multiplier for the bankais that increase AP. As nothing really contradicts Bankai being a 5x mulitplier at bare minimum.

Kenpachi's eyepatch
There really is no statement about how big of a multiplier it is other than the fact that it makes his power skyrocket. So I guess we need to discuss if it can be considered a 2x multiplier or just leave it as an unquantifiable power up.

Resurrecció
Resurrección was stated to have an power boost similar to that of a bankai, but as shown throughout the Arrancar arc, Resurrección is weaker than Bankai and it is also less than 5x as Gentei Kaijo is more than enough to close the gap so this is clearly incorrect. So we will discuss whether or not Resurrección can be considered a 2x multiplier. The Resurreccións that have feats of being on par with Bankai such as Edrad Liones can be considered 5x.

Hollowficatio
As shown during the fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow, Hollowfication is pretty much equal to Resurrección so we need to figure out the multiplier for Resurrección if we want it find out the multiplier for Hollowfication.

Vollständig
Vollständig is also an unquantifiable power up so we also need to discuss if this can be considered as a 2x boost just like the others.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Gentei Kaijo -

• The statement from Renji in SS as well as the one in Arrancar Invasio
  *20% Daiguren and Hihio losing to Ress Shawlong and Yylfordt but stomping/onshotting after being released
  *20% Rangiku losing to Nakeem but oneshotting after release

For Bankai we have -

• Yoruichi explaining Bankai
• Kageyoshi stomping Hihio instantly despite Hihio pressuring Senbonzakura
• Ichigo being buried by Kageyoshi to slapping it all away with Tensa
• Gerard being stronger than Kenny but Bankai oneshots if not for Miracle

For Ress (dependant on Bankai) we have -

• Urahara comparing Ress to Bankai
• Volcanica turning an even fight into a stomp but Ryumon matching it at its strongest
• Ulq having to run away from Masked Ichigo is now no selling his best attack with his aura alone

For Vollstandig (dependant on Bankai) -

• Bambi (I think) saying Vollstandig is better than Bankai (whoever it was had both so the statement would be valid)
• Bambi went from being at least comparable to Sajin in base to being able to blow up KTMJ.
• Quilge also states it is superior to Letz Stil
• Letz Stil made Ishida go from below Mayuri's level to oneshotting KAJ
• Getting stomped by BanKen prompts Gerard to activate Vollstandig

For the Hollowfication (dependant on Ress and thus Bankai) -

• Shown to be comparable to Ress in Grimm vs Ichi final fight
• 1 arm Grimm immediately got stomped by Ichigo who is notably weaker than him in Bankai
• Turned Byakuya about to kill Ichigo into a stomp on Zangetsu's end
• Mask Hiyori was stomping Shikai Ichigo but Zangetsu immediately stomped her
• Ichigo getting manhandled by Ulq becomes him smacking Ulq around

Didn't realise this would get made so quickly so I'll just copy and paste what I posted on the GD. If it isn't obvious what I support, x5 for all of them as it is the minimum for the average Bankai rather than the limit so even if Ress is weaker, it is not necessarily below x5. As for the eyepatch, just leave it at higher as arbitrarily assigning it a multiplier with no reasoning is wholly inaccurate. Don't think I need to say why that shouldn't be on our profiles.

Going to sleep now so I'll edit in links when I wake up unless others provide them while I am not on.

 

[Peter1129]

Just gonna fix a few things and ask a few questions.

20% Bankai Toshiro was actually losing to Base Shawlong Resurrección just made the gap even bigger. Same with Ylfordt he was beating 20% Bankai Renji in Base and made the gap even bigger with Resurrección. So that's two examples of Resurrección not being 5x.

Edrad probably just has a stronger Resurrección compared to the others since his Resurrección is more physical power based. So some Resurrección are much smaller than 5x while some like Edrad's are shown to be roughly the same as Bankai. So yeah like I said before 2x should be the bare minimum for Resurrección and the 5x should only be reserved for Resurreccións that have feats of being comparable to Bankai.

Where was it stated that Vollständig is better than Bankai?

Bambietta was always stronger than Base Sajin. She could take his Bankai which means Base Bambietta is at least as strong as Bankai Sajin.

We don't know how the fight between Vollständig Gerard and Bankai Kenpachi would have been like so I don't think that should be used as an example.

Base Ulquiorra wasn't manhandling Bankai Ichigo. Bankai Ichigo was still able to somewhat keep up with him though it was clear that he was weaker overall.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Renji does state he wasn't sure if he could have taken out Ylfordt with Bankai Banks and Gentei Kaijou and had to taken him out by surprise so that point doesn't work that well

For Hollowfcation, Ichigo needed to use his Hollowfication in order to swipe away Grimmjow's Gran Rey Cero without any problem, and then Grimmjow's Ress is on par if not a bit higher at first than Ichigo's Vizard Mask, although Ichigo did seem to be hholding back until Orihime asks him to finish the fight quickly. So at best they're even

 

[Kidkinsey]

agree with bankai being 5-10 to specific stats or an ability not all stats

agree with res being lower due to kisuke statements

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Busy, so my garbled thoughts:

Kenpachi's Eyepatch is unquantifiable, can't do anything with it really, just makes him a lot higher.

Resurreccion has instances of being less than 5 or even higher, it's probably the fact that weaker Arrancar have a lower multiplier while Arrancar like Espada have higher multipliers (Resurreccion is compared to Bankai's multiplier by Urahara which is 5-10).

Hollowfication should follow suite per Ichigo's Hollowfication matching Grimmjow's Resurreccion.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Mask also has a multiplier of x10 and Renji no sold it.

Also I agree with IMade.

 

[Damage3245]

How could you forget the most important multiplier of Kenpachi swinging his sword with both hands?

 

[OrangeberrySama]

Zaraki's removal of his eyepatch should be comparable to the boost Yammy gains from his second transformation. Said boost is proportional to Yammy's increase in size. But it's clear that the intent is for that to be Zaraki's version of Bankai.

Resureccion is at least a 5 times multiplier for an Espada as Urahara stated that. It's stated that the Resureccion of a regular Arrancar is different from the Resureccion of an Espada: https://**********.com/manga/Bleach/0267-013.png

Resureccion of a regular Arrancar can be considered anywhere from 2-5 in terms of multiplier. This is because one of the Databooks states that Ayon's version of Resureccion more than doubled his power: https://www.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/7n5pe9/some_informations_from_the_unmasked_databook/

Vollständig is clearly the Sternritter's version of Bankai but let's base this of clear evidence. Vollständig is stated to be superior to Letzt Stil which is superior to Bankai. (Shikai Mayuri was superior to Base Uryu but Letzt Stil Uryu stomped Bankai Mayuri). Sternritter also prefer the use of Vollständig over Bankai.

 

[Zezu1995]

i agree with everything but i think ress should be 4x while mask is 2x cuz mask dont make them as strong as ress (it depends on the person) wonderless literally beat mach and kensei who had mask and bankai after going res

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

If the 4x is for normal arrancar then yea

 

[Peter1129]

Isn't Yammy's size unquantifiable? I think it's probably best to leave it as an unknown amp.

Urahara said Arrancar not Espada. We even see panels of Espadas and Arrancars. That just seems more like Aaroniero boasting about his Resurrección. I think all Resurreccións should be assumed to be 2x unless they have proof of being higher like Edrad. So yeah Ayon is more proof that on the low end of Resurrección is 2x.

If the 4x is for normal arrancar then yea

We can't just go and assume a random 4x multiplier for Resurrección.

 

[Zezu1995]

aint espadas just the first few arrancars that were made?

 

[Peter1129]

Anyways I think this that Gentei Kaijo and Bankai should be considered 5x. Bankai can be considered higher if they have proof of being higher.

Kenpachi's eyepatch should just be left alone as an unknown amp.

Ressureccion and Hollowfication should be considered 2x and 5x for those that scale to a bankai.

Volstandig I have no clue. But from the looks of it it seems like 5x minimum might be more likely.

 

[Ovy7]

Isn't Yami's Resurrection explicitly said to be a 10x in the UNMASKED databook?

 

[Peter1129]

It says his Resurrección is a 10x boost but his anger transformation is something that activates when he gets 10x angrier. The anger transformation doesn't have a fixed multiplier as it's based on his size. The 10x Resurrección might just be something exclusive to Yammy as he's supposed to be the weakest Espadas in Base but the strongest when using Resurrección. So it shouldn't scale to the other Arrancar's Resurrección.

 

[Zezu1995]

we got one more multiplier blut artiry after that everything else should be good

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The 2x seems like a reaally lowball to me.

 

[Peter1129]

Ayon's El Martillo is stated to be his version of Resurrección and it's a 2x boost. Shawlong and Ylfordt's Resurrección were both shown to be less than 5x. Dordoni's Resurrección was also shown to be weaker than Ichigo's Bankai. So yeah 2x is definitely not a low ball for Resurrección. It's probably the average for most Resurreccións.

 

[Zezu1995]

2x is fine since we dont have a number given

 

[Naeblis495]

so , we consider something that is not even a true ress ( ayon flexing one of his arm) as a benchmark for a ress ? i kinda disagree on that part .

dordonni was from a former generation of arrancar , one that wasn't made from the hogyoku iirc. That could explain his lack of ress strengh . The shinigami winning against grimmjow's squad in living world after their limit being lifted is said to be because they got them by surprise. renji even wonder if he could have won if he fought in limit released from the start .

most ress we saw were pretty equal to a bankai , at least for the espada/wonderweiss wich is confirmed by urahara's statement that a ress is pretty much the same as a bankai .

i think that hollowfication is a bit inferior than bankai/the stronger ress . Unless the ichigo's one , this one pretty much became his new bankai and could hold up to ress even weakened/almost broken.

i could settle for a 4x multiplier for ress that didn't match a bankai/mask at all and a 5x for those that did .

vollstanding is clearly a bankai equivalent for the quincies.

so i'll give :

bankai , espada ress ,ichigo's hollowfication and vollstanding : 5x multiplier

normal arrancars ress: 4x multiplier

hollwfication from other vizard : 3x multiplier

 

[Peter1129]

Where does the 3x and 4x even come from? We don't give out random multipliers with no proof. So yeah 2x should be the minimum benchmark for Resurrección if they don't have any proof of scaling to a Bankai.

 

[Naeblis495]

if bankai is 5x and that normal arrancar ress can't completly match that but still stay relative to it , then using 4x seems logical imo .

the 3x for vizard mask come from rose and love being trashed by stark once he got serious, clearly showing that their mask can't compete against his ress at all .So i proposed 3x given the gap.

your 2x multi for ress doesn't make sense when it doesn't come from one , it come from someone trying to imitate it.

 

[Peter1129]

Like I said you can't just assume a random multipliers. So 2x is the only thing we can use as a bare minimum for Resurrección.

 

[Naeblis495]

not when that 2x come from an imitation. it doesn't even resemble a ress remotly , he just buff his arm .

to give x2 to ress when it is stated and showned multiples time to be near or equal bankais, wich is 5x ,is ridiculous.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

Isn't Yammy's size unquantifiable? I think it's probably best to leave it as an unknown amp.

Urahara said Arrancar not Espada. We even see panels of Espadas and Arrancars. That just seems more like Aaroniero boasting about his Resurrección. I think all Resurreccións should be assumed to be 2x unless they have proof of being higher like Edrad. So yeah Ayon is more proof that on the low end of Resurrección is 2x.
Not really. You could definitely pixel scale his size in both forms and compare the difference.

Espada are Arrancar so that makes no difference and no, only Espada are shown when Kisuke makes that statement, further supporting the notion of an Espada's Resurrección being different to regular Arrancars.

Espada=at least 5 times.

Other Arrancar=anywhere from 2-5 times.

 

[Peter1129]

Bumping this

 

[Ovy7]

So, what are we gonna do with the speed boost from those forms? IMO, it should likely be a 2x for the reasons I've mentioned in the General Discussion thread.

 

[Peter1129]

We'll worry about that later. We need to at the very least decide on the multipliers first.

Also just remembered didn't Kenpachi go from being comparable to Base Nnoitra to fighting Resurreccion Nnoitra after removing his eyepatch? Wouldn't that mean the eyepatch also has a similar multiplier to Resurreccion?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Now that I have time to get back to this, Naeblis brings up a good point. If Renji is questioning whether he would win if he started without Gentei Kaijo and Team Hitsugaya attributes their victory to surprise, the only examples of Ress < Bankai are invalid. We also can't use a multiplier for something that isn't even Ress so x2 isn't even applicable. They should all be x5 aside from Yammy.

 

[Naeblis495]

his first strike against ress nnoitora was easily blocked .

so the eyepatch isn't comparable to a ress .

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I'm honestly thinking it Masks don't boost speed at all when Ichigo went from being slower than Ulq to .... being slower than Ulq. The only time his mask amped speed was against one armed Grimmjow who we know is weaker than before to the extent Aaroniero was considered stronger. None of the other Visoreds show a speed amp either so it makes more sense to say it isn't boosted by the Mask.

 

[Peter1129]

Last time I checked Kenpachi said he was deciding what to do with Nnoitra's arm. Literally right after that he cut off an arm and was fighting pretty evenly against Resurreccion Nnoitra.

 

[Naeblis495]

ichigo without his mask could barely react to base ulqui after he got serious . After putting the mask he was tagging him quite easily so i still think it boost all physical stats .

If the mask didn't boost speed , ulqui would have continued to toy with him in speed .

 

[Naeblis495]

Last time I checked Kenpachi said he was deciding what to do with Nnoitra's arm. Literally right after that he cut off an arm and was fighting pretty evenly against Resurreccion Nnoitra.

Doesn't change the fact that his first strike got blocked casually. with even nnoitra saying that he was dissapointed by it .

Kenpatchi then get cut , lie on floor for while , thinking of a strtagy to deal with the arms .

Honestly he only won because he broke more and more of his mental barriers during the fight and not because his eyepatch is equal to a ress

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The only mental barrier he broke was the one to use two hands. Question is if Kendo should get the multiplier as it one shot Santa Teresa Nnoitra was still taking hits from no eyepatch in base. He was getting dunked on but the difference between ST and Kendo is bigger than base Nnoitra vs no Eyepatch so it should scale accordingly.

 

[Peter1129]

I don't think Kendo should get the multiplier. And if nobody agrees with the eyepatch scaling than I think we should also ignore it scaling to Resurreccion. And looking back at it the eyepatch is probably a smaller multiplier than Resurreccion. Base Kenpachi w/ eyepatch was already somewhat stronger than Base Nnoitra. And even with eyepatch off it seems like Kenpachi was still overall weaker than Resurreccion Nnoitra.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why would the eyepatch not scaling discount Kendo? Kendo is without a doubt superior. Or did I misunderstand?

 

[Naeblis495]

no , the two hand was just his sturborness because he didn't want to use kendo that he deems useless .

this scan have unohana refering to him breaking mental barriers when he was fighting strong ennemies close to death and have a clear panel of the fight with nnoitora ( when he clench his neck) https://www.***********.net/bleach/525/15

so he broke some of his mental barriers against nnoitora and used kendo on top of it to almost one shot him .

he clearly got stronger after his fight with nnoitora even without using kendo , as he could easily cut ress yammy's gigantic limbs with a single handed swing .

 

[Peter1129]

Why would the eyepatch not scaling discount Kendo? Kendo is without a doubt superior. Or did I misunderstand?

I just said Kendo shouldn't get a multiplier. I didn't say it had anything to do with the eyepatch. I think we should just leave those two as unquantifiable multipliers.