Bleach: Muken's Size and God Tiers

[Zoro21043]

Essentially infinite =/= actually infinite
There's your hyperbole
Also this thread is actually about changing character Tierings - that is the final objective

Definition of ESSENTIALLY

in essence : fundamentally —used to identify or stress the basic or essential character or nature of a person or thing or to say that a description is basically true or accurate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So Unohana is saying that Muken being an infinite space is an instrinsic property of itself.

^credits to arc

 

[RoyGundam]

Even if a secondary character said that Ichibe named Muken, that would be enough but even that statement probably doesn't exist

 

[Makstar05]

I haven't seen any proof yet that Ichibe personally named Muken

Ichibe says he named everything in the SS(barring character names and zanpaktous coz thats obvious)

 

[Zoro21043]

again lets stop using ichibei as
-he isnt necessary
-i can see why they are disagreeing with ichibei thing

 

[Makstar05]

And if u say “If he didn’t name the zanpakutous that means he didnt name everything in the SS” than thats false coz a zanpaktou starts of nameless and gets a name when its wielder has spent time with it and has trained.

 

[RoyGundam]

Definition of ESSENTIALLY

in essence : fundamentally —used to identify or stress the basic or essential character or nature of a person or thing or to say that a description is basically true or accurate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So Unohana is saying that Muken being an infinite space is an instrinsic property of itself.

^credits to arc

Again, what Unohana said doesn't have to be literal. A very large space can be called "essentially infinite" and it would be perfectly fine.
This is also exactly what I warned against - instead of getting bogged down by word meanings and possible hyperbolae, let's discuss actual solid stuff :
A : Soul King separated the Soul Society from the Living World
B : Yhwach was going to reverse that feat
C : There is decent amount of evidence to prove that the two are separate space-times
D : Boom : 2-C Soul King, Yhwach and Ichigo

The most effective thing to do would be to concentrate on C because AFAIK, very rarely do infinite void statements get accepted here as a High 3-A justification.

 

[RoyGundam]

Ichibe says he named everything in the SS(barring character names and zanpaktous coz thats obvious)

Chapter ?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, well, I'm finally awake and I see that this is already on its second page. I'm glad to see other people have been arguing against it in my absence.

I'm in agreement with Matthew that the Bleach God Tiers most definitely should not be upgraded to Tier 3/2.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well, well, I'm finally awake and I see that this is already on its second page. I'm glad to see other people have been arguing against it in my absence.

I'm in agreement with Matthew that the Bleach God Tiers most definitely should not be upgraded to Tier 3/2.

I disagree.

Do you have any new points to argue?

 

[Zoro21043]

im fine with doing that

arc already has good evidence for them being separate time spaces as the dangai has its own where time flows differently and separates the two

 

[RoyGundam]

2-C actually makes the most sense if we dispense with the rather strange argument that "Realms" in Bleach are Planetary

 

[Makstar05]

Chapter ?

656

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Again, what Unohana said doesn't have to be literal. A very large space can be called "essentially infinite" and it would be perfectly fine.
This is also exactly what I warned against - instead of getting bogged down by word meanings and possible hyperbolae, let's discuss actual solid stuff :
A : Soul King separated the Soul Society from the Living World
B : Yhwach was going to reverse that feat
C : There is decent amount of evidence to prove that the two are separate space-times
D : Boom : 2-C Soul King, Yhwach and Ichigo

The most effective thing to do would be to concentrate on C because AFAIK, very rarely do infinite void statements get accepted here as a High 3-A justification.

 

[Zoro21043]

btw why is it that this wiki treats wotl as 4A? its supposed to be our world
isnt it headcannon to assume otherwise

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Chapter ?

Bleach manga; Chapter 564, pages 7-8

 

[Omimi]

i understand why infinite darkness/hell isnt taken seriously but
the fact that the name translates to infinite
and unohana also says it is infinite in size as the name says thus connecting the two and proving it isnt a hyperbole as it was intentional and an in verse character is aware of why it has the name it has

i cant see how this cannot be accepted as infinite everything adds up and makes sense

(maybe this can help a bit but i dont expect it to and i dont think this is even necessary considering unohana should be enough
in bleach names hold meaning and power as ichibei confirms and
ichigo=one who protects (and his entire purpose is protecting)
zangetsu =moon cutter
kyoka suigetsu = Mirror Flower, Water Moon
(and ichigo manged to cut the real moon(aizen) )
yhwach=name of a god
(was the god of the quincies )
and many more

and again i dont expect this to help with what im trying to prove but this shows names actually mean something in bleach and arent totally useless further backing up muken/mugen being infinite specially when a character in the verse knows why it is named that and connected the two things)

almost infinitely large=/= infinite in size

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

almost infinitely large=/= infinite in size

The proper translation does not include "almost"

 

[RoyGundam]

656

656 is just the beginning of Askin vs Yoruichi

 

[Makstar05]

656 is just the beginning of Askin vs Yoruichi

Sorry 564

 

[Zoro21043]

Unohana says: "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ
And as the sound of its name suggests, it has essentially infinite space."

here is it's definition. So Unohana is saying that Muken being an infinite space is an instrinsic property of itself.

almost infinitely large=/= infinite in size

 

[RoyGundam]

Bleach manga; Chapter 564, pages 7-8

I can see how that would be a decent argument for Muken being literal but Ichibe seems to have named conceptual and fundamental things - like "zanpakto", "shikai" and "bankai". It does indicate that Ichibe could have named Muken but doesn't really prove is conclusively. Furthermore, I actually don' think it is very relevant to the updating of character Tiers.

Garganta actually would be more important in terms of scaling because it houses the Living World and Soul Society

 

[RoyGundam]

This is kind of slam dunk evidence for 2-C Bleach

 

[Makstar05]

I can see how that would be a decent argument for Muken being literal but Ichibe seems to have named conceptual and fundamental things - like "zanpakto", "shikai" and "bankai". It does indicate that Ichibe could have named Muken but doesn't really prove is conclusively. Furthermore, I actually don' think it is very relevant to the updating of character Tiers.

Garganta actually would be more important in terms of scaling because it houses the Living World and Soul Society

Theres a straight up panel of the Sereitei after Ichibe’s statement.So Idk why ur saying he only named conceptual stuff.

 

[RoyGundam]

Theres a straight up panel of the Sereitei after Ichibe’s statement.So Idk why ur saying he only named conceptual stuff.

Because the only specific examples he actually gives of him naming things are conceptual names rather than material names

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Because the only specific examples he actually gives of him naming things are conceptual names rather than material names

I mean the Seireitei isn't conceptual and it's the "image example" shown

 

[Makstar05]

Because the only specific examples he actually gives of him naming things are conceptual names rather than material names

Ichibe clearly said he named “all things”.They being conceptual is just ur assumption.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

OK, I'm starting to see the argument with the Ichibei stuff. Before I was leaning towards Matt and AKM, but now I'm still Neutral but leaning slightly towards your side now unless they bring something explicit.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What’s even going on now. This name argument means nothing...

 

[RoyGundam]

I mean the Seireitei isn't conceptual and it's the "image example" shown

Ichibe also doesn't actually say that he named the Seiretei itself

 

[Zoro21043]

What’s even going on now. This name argument means nothing...

i dont think its completely useless but ye its not necessary to prove muken being infinite

btw why is it that wotl and ss arent accepted as universal
when wotl is based on our world and soul society mirrors it

 

[Damage3245]

@Zoro21043; Soul Society mirrors the Earth. I haven't seen any evidence that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe.

Are we to take it that when Unohana is worried that Yamamoto's power can "Destroy Soul Society" she's afraid his 15 Million degree heat will somehow destroy the entire Universe?

 

[RoyGundam]

i dont think its completely useless but ye its not necessary to prove muken being infinite

It is absolutely necessary to prove that because Unohana's statement is hyperbole without the backing of being literal that is provided by Ichibe naming muken

 

[RoyGundam]

@Zoro21043; Soul Society mirrors the Earth. I haven't seen any evidence that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe.

Are we to take it that when Unohana is worried that Yamamoto's power can "Destroy Soul Society" she's afraid his 15 Million degree heat will somehow destroy the entire Universe?

15 million degrees wouldn't even destroy a planet or a country so clearly that i.e. just the heat/temperature wasn't the point

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Zoro21043; Soul Society mirrors the Earth. I haven't seen any evidence that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe.

Are we to take it that when Unohana is worried that Yamamoto's power can "Destroy Soul Society" she's afraid his 15 Million degree heat will somehow destroy the entire Universe?

Soul Society depending on the context can refer to planet or the realm. For example, Yamamoto destroying SS likely refers to the planet, but Yhwach merged SS refers to the realms.

Bleach's cosmos is heavily based on and inspired by Buddhism, which supports the notion of the Bleach cosmos being Tier 2. Also, the Garganta contains multiple different spacetimes.

 

[Makstar05]

It is absolutely necessary to prove that because Unohana's statement is hyperbole without the backing of being literal that is provided by Ichibe naming muken

Ichibe says he named everything n then theres a panel showing Seireitei right after which means he named the locations as well.Unohana’s statement isn’t hyperbole as she referring the size to the name n said name makes up the properties of an object.

 

[Zoro21043]

@Zoro21043; Soul Society mirrors the Earth. I haven't seen any evidence that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe.

Are we to take it that when Unohana is worried that Yamamoto's power can "Destroy Soul Society" she's afraid his 15 Million degree heat will somehow destroy the entire Universe?

well the soul king split the universe into two

physical form = our world

spiritual form = soul society

think of it this way
ichigos physical form looks exactly like his spiritual form thus mirroring it
so ss is universal


and for yama others explained it

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Zoro21043; Soul Society mirrors the Earth. I haven't seen any evidence that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe.

Are we to take it that when Unohana is worried that Yamamoto's power can "Destroy Soul Society" she's afraid his 15 Million degree heat will somehow destroy the entire Universe?

Soul Society doesn’t mirror Earth lol. It’s parallel to the Human realm.

This 2nd sentence is just bad, I don’t even know how you reached that conclusion.

 

[RoyGundam]

Ichibe says he named everything n then theres a panel showing Seireitei right after which means he named the locations as well.Unohana’s statement isn’t hyperbole as she referring the size to the name n said name makes up the properties of an object.

Meh ... it's an argument. But I'm not really convinced and mostly I don't really care that much because there are better arguments for upgrading Bleach Tiers

 

[Makstar05]

Meh ... it's an argument. But I'm not really convinced and mostly I don't really care that much because there are better arguments for upgrading Bleach Tiers

Well ur right but this CRT’s about Muken.

 

[Damage3245]

Soul Society doesn’t mirror Earth lol. It’s parallel to the Human realm.

This 2nd sentence is just bad, I don’t even know how you reached that conclusion.

Where is the statement that Soul Society mirrors the entire Universe?

Unohana said that Yamamoto would destroy the Soul Society which is the reason why his Bankai has its current rating. You can't pick and choose for when "Soul Society" refers to the planet and when it refers to the entire Universe.