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Bleach God Tiers for real this time
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
- Status
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Oh no worries. Misunderstandings happen.
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If I can get another quick reminder here, we only consider the SK’a position to keep the world seperate right?
And if he dies/gets removed, the worlds would just get merged back into the old original universe right?
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No, we don't know how big the old universe is. And idk where you got the old universe being our irl universe from, do you have a proof?
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That applies to the sealed Soul King who can’t choose to do anything unlike Soul King Yhwach. That rule applies only to the sealed Soul King. As neither the manga or light novel say that a second earthquake shook the realms when Ichigo killed Yhwach twice. The light novel says Yhwach’s plan was to undo the realms with Almighty.
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yes SK is just a tittle given to the one holding everything and keep everything afloat
if the battery is removed everything collapses yes
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The sandbox already has the scan on Garganta having time flow. So you can find the proof of it being universal+
By dividing the old universe into the elements, physical matter (which represents WotL) formed a universe just like ours with few notable differences. The spiritual matter which was extracted from the former cosmos(which represents SS) manifestes a universe that is parallel to ours. Since the realms are spatio temporally severed from each other, it means ReiO genuinely created the timelines for them as they never existed
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So your saying only the SKs presence would be doing that, not Yhwaches?
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Okay, so my next question is this.
Sorry if this might be a bit nitpicky, but if that’s the case, then the SKs presence wasnt keeping the worlds as a whole in existence, but just separated from each other?
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Is u mean the stuff he created those would be destroyed cus they were not part of the OG universe
if he created say SS from scratch and he died then SS would be destroyed at that was not from the OG universe
so he does mantain everything created that was not part of the OG universe like garganta HM etc.
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I’m saying, the auto merged effect is placed on the sealed corpse. If “killed” the worlds merge. That corpse has no choice, unlike Yhwach who was walking around.
There is no presence. The manga says that Yhwach’s power is maintaining the worlds after absorbing the Soul King.
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- Thread starter
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Summary of what's currently being discussed:
The Garganta
The 3 Realms of Existence
Confusion with 3-A to 2-C
Confusion with the "At least Low 2-C, possibly/likely 2-C"
The Garganta
- Aura monologues that "[she's] prowling within the infinite Garganta" I break this translation down character by character within the google doc. My evidence for my translation being accurate is having taken multiple years of Japanese in college, being able to communicate with native speaking Japanese professors, having college certified textbooks, and strictly using .org or .edu sites when stumbling across words I don't know/aren't in my textbooks.
- Debunk 1: Google translate says "infinitely expanding Garganta". In the world of academia (where I'm from) using google translate is a big no no in language classes, according to native speaking professors I've talked to it often leads to too many inaccuracies. Idk if google translate is acceptable here, but in my realms of work and study it is not. Most I've talked to seem to agree here too.
- Debunk 2: Why not wait for the officials with VIZ? I bought the third volume with the specific intent of translating it early (being that I know Japanese). VIZ can be wrong too but that's not why I bought the book to translate it early. I believe I've thoroughly supported my translation being accurate, so I want to discuss this stuff now. If it turns out down the line a better translation contradicts mine, then a new thread that downgrades the verse can be made.
- Isshin and the Spirits Are Forever With You novel confirm that the time and space of the Garganta is separate from the realms. This implies that the Garganta is its own space-time.
- Debunk 1: Space-time =/= universal in size. Correct, I agree. The Garganta being a space-time is just a separate point. I bring it up because to be considered a Low 2-C structure you must be a certain size and be a space-time.
- According to VSBW standards being described as infinite or using similar synonyms classifies something to be of at least universal in size. So, regardless of if the Garganta is actually infinite or not, the fact that Aura describes it as such is enough to say the Garganta is universal in size.
- Debunk 1: Aura is being hyperbolic. This is false for the following reasons. Aura is giving us an expository monologue, it's practically the author giving us information directly. Aura isn't talking to anyone but the reader, and there is no reason to assume the author is lying unless the author indicates that what he writes are lies. Second, the Garganta is just one big void that encompasses everything within the Bleach cosmos. While that doesn't inherently mean anything at all, it means that it being that large is no contradiction. My point being there's nothing to make us weary that it can be that size.
- Conclusion: Due to Aura's statement and Isshin/SAFWY descriptions, the Garganta is at least a universal sized space-time, which by VSBW definition is a Low 2-C structure. This is something that the majority has either silently acquiesced on or voiced their agreement. The only disagreement I've still seen is from Matt regarding the validity of my translation. I can't force him to believe that I translate without a hidden agenda but I hope my above "Japanese resume" helps provide some credibility that I am more accurate than google translate.
The 3 Realms of Existence
- Hueco Mundo is shown to contain a moon orbiting the planet and has a statement of containing an "endless amount of sand". So Hueco Mundo as a realm is just unquantifiably larger than a planet + moon.
- Debunk 1: Endless =/= infinite realm. I agree, I never argued Hueco Mundo is infinite. Personally, I believe Hueco Mundo is just planet + moon in size.
- Kon mentions a "distant galaxy" in an end chapter sketch, indicating the existence of galaxies within the World of the Living.
- Debunk 1: End of chapter sketches don't mean anything. I disagree as Kubo uses end of chapter sketches to add context and tell his story in more subtle ways. Oftentimes his sketches directly relate to what's happening in the manga: Gin depicted as a snake next to Aizen, Uryu saving the Arrancar girl, Ichigo's badge breaking when White takes over, etc.
- Debunk 2: Doesn't this mean Kon kicked the pebble all the way to the galaxy? Hell no, all it means is that Kon is aware of distant galaxies existing within the realm of the WotL.
- Gremmy imagines a small galaxy. Similar to Kon, Gremmy being able to imagine galaxies implies he too knows or has seen galaxies.
- Debunk 1: Containing galaxies =/= universal size. Correct in a vacuum, but this isn't the only evidence towards the WotL being the same size as our IRL universe. Also, I can't seem to find the page, but I created a Q&A a long time ago called "Qualifications for Tier 2" and was given the answer that to be Low 2-C you need to be of multi-galaxy size and be a space-time. I wish I could link it but after an hour of searching I just couldn't find it on either of the two sites, so if you don't want to accept this point I understand.
- Kubo has demonstrated that the WotL is a parallel to the IRL world (Ewan McGregor exists, London exists, etc) which is one of the bullet points that make a dimension acceptably universal in size according to VSBW standards.
- Debunk 1: How can the WotL be a universe if the realms fit are only part of the Bleach universe? The Bleach universe and the old universe that existed before the Soul King created the current universe aren't inherently the size of a 3-A universe. The Garganta can be larger than our IRL universe and the realms can be the size of our IRL universe. Being that the Garganta has a statement for infinite size, even if the realms were infinite (I'm not claiming such, I only think WotL and SS are 3-A in size), infinite can fit in infinite. So the realms being a whole universe in size does not contradict anything.
- Soul Society is the mirror world to World of the Living, and according to universal size standards on VSBW this alone is enough to say the Soul Society is on par in size with the World of the Living.
- Debunk 1: Is it enough tho? According to the site yes. However, I'll give you more information anyway. We know the SS has starry skies and it is very possible that Gremmy witnessed the galaxy within SS since he's been living in the shadows of SS. So disregarding SS being parallel to the WotL it contains countless stars as well as potentially galaxies.
- Isshin states the WotL and SS are cut off from time and space from each other. This would make the realms their own time-space.
- Debunk 1: Time-space =/= universal size. I agree, but what it does mean is that if the realms are universal in size AND are their own time-spaces would make them Low 2-C structures.
- Conclusion: Due to VSBW standards for classifying spaces as universal in size and what Kubo has shown us satisfying said standards, the WotL and SS are Low 2-C structures. Personally, the fact that they satisfy (as Tempest pointed out) 4/6 bullet points for being universal in size, coupled with the fact that the wiki only demands 1 bullet be satisfied, there should be no question that the realms are universal time-spaces.
Confusion with 3-A to 2-C
- Being universal in size and not being a confirmed time-space is 3-A.
- Being infinite in size and not being a confirmed time-space is High 3-A.
- Being universal in size and a confirmed time-space is Low 2-C.
- Being multiple universal sized time-spaces separated by a separate time-space is 2-C.
Confusion with the "At least Low 2-C, possibly/likely 2-C"
- At least Low 2-C, comes from the Garganta being a universal-infinite sized time-space by itself.
- 2-C, comes from destroying 3 Low 2-C structures separated by different space-times (as I am arguing that WotL, SS, and Garganta are all Low 2-C structures).
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That’s what I meant by “presence” as in passive keeping the worlds in check.
But anyway, if I’m understanding right, the merging of the worlds post-death only goes for a sealed SK corpse then. An unsealed SK wouldn’t have that. That’s what you mean?
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I'm gonna be honest even if we take it at face value it's a most going to be 3-A and not Low 2-C or 2-C. I'm with Damage there
(Update: Will reply to Arc7 soon)
(Update: Will reply to Arc7 soon)
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Yes, as neither the manga or light novels mention the world ending earthquakes after Ichigo killed Yhwach twice. Is something added to the sealed corpse.
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at least 3-A is good but it seems certain that there is space-time in garganta
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Okay this is more clear now. But at the same time, shouldn’t Yhwach dying at least the first time started to make the worlds crumble?
I know he rewrote his death with almighty a minute later, but there was still a brief moment that he was actually killed (when he became that black eye goop) by Ichigo.
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I mean there's space-time in the DB Universe where physical world and afterlife are separate with space-time but it is just 3-A there.
If you guys want your Bleach upgrade I'd recommend setting down to 3-A.
If you guys want your Bleach upgrade I'd recommend setting down to 3-A.
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That’s because he didn’t truly die; even now he isn’t dead.
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Low 2-C: "Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale." ~VSBW
AKA 3-A + space-time = Low 2-C <- This is what I got from talking to people on Q&A threads, I'll make another Q&A and get back to y'all on if this is right.
Destroying 2+ Low 2-C structures separated by different space-times = 2-C
AKA 3-A + space-time = Low 2-C <- This is what I got from talking to people on Q&A threads, I'll make another Q&A and get back to y'all on if this is right.
Destroying 2+ Low 2-C structures separated by different space-times = 2-C
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If the SK was "alive" and wanted to keep everything his presence already does that
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The second time no, but the first time is what I’m referring to was a true death since he needed Almighty to rewrite his death.
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After going through this
I agree with 3-A & Low 2-C
(Which I kinda believed from the Start too)
I disagree with likely 2-C though
But could be "possibly 2-C"
I agree with 3-A & Low 2-C
(Which I kinda believed from the Start too)
I disagree with likely 2-C though
But could be "possibly 2-C"
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is because he is not truly dead which is why they are using him otherwise if he had truly died they would have used ichigo
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we know the og world had one time space and yhwachs plot was to make the world go back to how it was meaning the time spaces would be affected
or how the soul king was maintaining the worlds and preventing them from returning to their original state so its at least low 2C possibly/likely 2C
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Yes if U Upgrade it to 2-C then BoG arc DB should have 2-C Upgrades as well due to the same reason
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“True Death” isn’t really a thing for someone like him. Even Soul King was described as being in a paradoxical state of life and death. So Yhwach is probably the same just not powerless.
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Even if we don't count low 2-c, garganta high 3-A, right?
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DB is getting some characters upgraded to 2-C i think
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No no I’m talking about the first death Yhwach got from Ichigo and aizen tag teaming him, not the 2nd one.
When Yhwach “dies” the first time, he became a bunch of black eye goop for a brief moment after Aizen KS’d him and Ichigo dealt the finishing blow. And then a minute later, Yhwach comes back for rewritting his death with Almighty.
I’m not referring to the 2nd death when Uryu plot arrowed him, I’m taking about the first one. That one should’ve been a real death since Yhwach was forced to rewrite it to come back again.
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I don't quite get how you would have 3-A size and not have space-time. Wouldn't every Universe be Low 2-C if time existed?
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Guys let’s not try to and derail with DB stuff plz. Keep it to a bare minimum
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Hmm only maybe from Beerus & Champa destroying Universe 6 & 7 maybe if its I like it bro
But
I am talking about the Battle of Gods
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Going to address some of Arc7's points now.
First, general Garganta being infinite.
The word used in the line specifically is 広がる which means "to spread out". Alternatively, to extend, to stretch, to reach, or to fill. This is verified both by Jisho and by DeepL, both Japanese Translation sources more reliable than Google Translate.
The Garganta can either be infinite or it can be infinitely stretching. Either way, I would advise that something created within the Old Universe which surrounds the Soul King's creations not be treated as infinite based on a single line of dialogue from a single characters.
At the very least, waiting for official translations is better.
I expressed my problem with these several times, which is that these don't prove that the World of the Living is the entire universe, merely that it exists in the universe and characters are aware of the concept of a galaxy.
I don't get how this leads to evidence that World of the Living = The Entire Universe.
First, general Garganta being infinite.
The word used in the line specifically is 広がる which means "to spread out". Alternatively, to extend, to stretch, to reach, or to fill. This is verified both by Jisho and by DeepL, both Japanese Translation sources more reliable than Google Translate.
The Garganta can either be infinite or it can be infinitely stretching. Either way, I would advise that something created within the Old Universe which surrounds the Soul King's creations not be treated as infinite based on a single line of dialogue from a single characters.
At the very least, waiting for official translations is better.
I expressed my problem with these several times, which is that these don't prove that the World of the Living is the entire universe, merely that it exists in the universe and characters are aware of the concept of a galaxy.
I don't get the point here. I know that Bleach is set in a world like our own which is obviously more than enough proof that the universe is big enough, which obviously would be fine to accept as a general assumption even without this evidence.
I don't get how this leads to evidence that World of the Living = The Entire Universe.
But I don't agree with the World of the Living being universal in size so why should I accept Soul Society being equal in its size just from it being a mirror?
Yes but if they're still part of the same universe full that won't count them as two universes qualified for 2-C. It's still one universe separated into more than one realm.
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It can exist in creation too with the method.
The existence of time doesn't mean that creating a universe = Low 2-C. Time can exist as a construct indepently.
For the longest time the Supernatural God was treated as 3-A despite having created the universe because there was no evidence of him having control over space and time as constructs and in fact everything that was told about him implied that time and space always existed and he just created the physical universe.
Only in the very last Season did this change.
The existence of time doesn't mean that creating a universe = Low 2-C. Time can exist as a construct indepently.
For the longest time the Supernatural God was treated as 3-A despite having created the universe because there was no evidence of him having control over space and time as constructs and in fact everything that was told about him implied that time and space always existed and he just created the physical universe.
Only in the very last Season did this change.
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I'll try my best to explain here.
So let's say you have a Low 2-C structure and let's say that structure is an egg. If you go inside the egg shell and destroy the entire yoke, you've essentially destroyed the egg, but because you only destroyed the inside it's 3-A. However, if you take a hammer and destroy the egg and the shell, you've destroyed the Low 2-C structure and thus it would be Low 2-C.
If the Universe has a space-time it would be Low 2-C, but if you only destroy the inner contents of the Universe it's just a 3-A feat. This difference comes into play in this kind of manner: Yhwach isn't just destroying the contents of the realms and universes he's destroying the whole structure to remake something new.
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