Bleach God Tiers for real this time

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You can destroy a universe from outside without destroying time tho.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Garganta is at very least High 3-A even if U discard low 2-C stuffs

 

[The_Causality]

{The Quote About what SK did)

This is what I mean. The Material World is stated to have been created after the existed of the universe, after they decided they needed to split the world to establish order.

I think it's a problem about how you understood the feat, let me try to explain why they said that the Living world was created:

• The World of Living is the Material world of The Verse, According to Urahara, he is composed of Kishi, The natural things of The World of Living, this one is different for what SS is made of.
• The SS is a world of Konpaku, which is a term to call it 'Spiritual' if you want, you need to be a Spiritual being (made of Spiritual particle (Reishi) to go in), this is why you use a gate that convert real matter to spirituals ones, and those world are all made of Reishi.

In Conclusion, The composition of those worlds are fairly differents, one is Physical, the others are Spiritual

Now that we know the distinction, we need to analyze once again the Quote about the SK:

• As explained, the World was in Chaos before it cool down and make it 'normal' as the current universe, now when they talk about the Separation, this is what we need to focus:

Perhaps another form of the world would be born, but the essential thing was the clear separation the world of the 'living' from the world of the 'dead'.

This is what we need to answer about your doubt about the size of the Universe, the separation was to make a distinction between what is alive and what is dead, and to do that, SK created a Spiritual Realm when everythings made of Souls (what is dead) live in, this realm is made of Reishi, so Spiritual particle and the other is made of Kishi because it's alive

When they talk about 'Created the World of Living' it's because the Old world was a Chaos made of those particle, everything was either Alive and dead, thos was ambigous, the Old Universe is the Chaos when those things was in a same place. but when they Splitted the Universe, they indeed Created the world of living by separated the Spiritual matter out of the Universe to make a Spiritial Universe and the World of Living, The Physical Universe, it's clear now?

I appreciate the clarifications but neither scan you post says that the Old Universe is the World of Living. The Novel states otherwise in the passage I quoted above. Meanwhile the two scans seem to agree with me, stating that the three worlds will collapse and the old universe without life or death would return when they do.

Maybe i have made a mistake by saying that too directly, i should probably fix what i've said:

The Old Universe has the size of New because the matter which is what made of physically was kishi, reishi is a non physical matter, everything which is dead is made of Reishi, the Size of the Old Universe can't be larger than the new because what the SS and HC are made is Non physical matter, in other world, spirit particle, i think you should think about the SS as the Spiritual plane of the Universe, just like the common trope of a spiritual realm inside ppl

In summary, The Old Universe = The Universe when what is alive and death exist in the same plane, by messing the flow of souls which maked the Old Universe work as the New Cosmology, SK and the 5 Family Splited the Old Universe to make a Spiritual Universe for what is dead and a physical for what is alive, unlike the old one when all was in the same plane. The separation was also to prevent the Universe to stagnate once again due to the flow of soul, which could easily be disrupted if Hollow, Spiritual being eat to much huamn, preventing their souls to being recreated in the future and destroy the balance. The only difference between The Old and The New Cosmology is that now, Deads live in the realm of dead and Living ppl live in the Living Realm, the size didn't changed, but the composition did.

That's all i have to said i guess, i've tried to explain this as better as possible, hope it answer your questions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Will reply later but not too later.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Garganta is at very least High 3-A even if U discard low 2-C stuffs

I agree

 

[AppleLord]

is because he is not truly dead which is why they are using him otherwise if he had truly died they would have used ichigo

Ichibei said his Reiatsu with his corpse is enough. His soul body was destroyed twice but his consciousness lives inside his Reiatsu. He tried to kill Kazui in the future, and in the light novels six months later is mentioned that the other Captains missing in the Tokinada fiasco were in a mission destroying the rest of Yhwach’s Reiatsu in the Hueco Mundo and the Living World. His last Reiatsu remains are destroyed in the 10 year later time skip by Kazui or he absorbs it. That part is vague.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Causality really breaks down what we’ve been trying to explain.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Going to address some of Arc7's points now.

First, general Garganta being infinite.

The word used in the line specifically is 広がる which means "to spread out". Alternatively, to extend, to stretch, to reach, or to fill. This is verified both by Jisho and by DeepL, both Japanese Translation sources more reliable than Google Translate.

The Garganta can either be infinite or it can be infinitely stretching. Either way, I would advise that something created within the Old Universe which surrounds the Soul King's creations not be treated as infinite based on a single line of dialogue from a single characters.

At the very least, waiting for official translations is better.

I'd argue that infinite expansion is included in the bullet point for universal size standards of "described as infinite or something similar". However, I'd like to debunk your use of "infinitely", mugenni (無限に) means "to infinity" and not infinitely. It is not an adverb it is a direction towards a noun. So saying 無限に広がる means "infinitely stretching" incorrectly translates 無限に to be an adverb. So a more correct translation would be stretching to infinity. Which implies infinite size.

I expressed my problem with these several times, which is that these don't prove that the World of the Living is the entire universe, merely that it exists in the universe and characters are aware of the concept of a galaxy.


I don't get the point here. I know that Bleach is set in a world like our own which is obviously more than enough proof that the universe is big enough, which obviously would be fine to accept as a general assumption even without this evidence.

By VSBW standards this is enough to accept the WotL as being the same size as our IRL universe. It's just the rules of the site I didn't write them.

I don't get how this leads to evidence that World of the Living = The Entire Universe.


But I don't agree with the World of the Living being universal in size so why should I accept Soul Society being equal in its size just from it being a mirror?


Yes but if they're still part of the same universe full that won't count them as two universes qualified for 2-C. It's still one universe separated into more than one realm.

You're still stuck on the WotL can't be a whole universe if it's smaller than the in verse Bleach universe. The WotL can be whatever size, it being a whole universe in size does not mean that it is the entire Bleach universe. I'm arguing the WotL is some 92 billion lightyears across or whatever our IRL universe is.

The WotL =/= the Entire Bleach Universe, the WotL = our IRL Universe. The Bleach Universe is bigger than our IRL Universe.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

Yes if U Upgrade it to 2-C then BoG arc DB should have 2-C Upgrades as well due to the same reason

Huh? That's not even a comparison lol. The universes In Bleach are stated to separated both by space and time. U7 has legit no evidence of that.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You can destroy a universe from outside without destroying time tho.

Yeah the egg thing was just an analogy to make it more digestible. My gist was this if you only destroy the physical contents of a Low 2-C structure it is 3-A but if you destroy the entire space-time then it's Low 2-C.

 

[The_Causality]

BTW i didn't read all the 7 page of the post lmao, i just argue about the Size of the Universe and at the same time make the cosmology as clear as possible, i don't argue about 3-A or Low 2-C stuff so don't include me in the conclusion of the upgrade or not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Arc

Stretching to infinity doesn’t really mean it’s flat out infinite, just that it’s infinitely expanding. Becoming bigger and bigger, but keeping finite size

Just to make that small distinction

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Stretching to infinity doesn’t really mean it’s flat out infinite, just that it’s infinitely expanding. Becoming bigger and bigger, it’s keeping finite size

無限に means stretching/filling/extending to infinite/infinity, which would mean that the physical dimensions of the Garganta go out to infinity on the 3D axis. Regardless, it meets the qualifications for being considered of universal size.

Regarding DB stuff. IIRC the stuff inside Uni 7 is only spatially separated since they all share the same timeline. Which would just make equating the DB Uni 7 to the Bleach Cosmos a false equivalency.

Ok ignoring the spacetime thing right we all agree that wiping out the Garganta + Dangai + WotL + SS + HM = 3-A to High 3-A.

If my interpretation on the spacetime thing is correct then it would be Low 2-C to 2-C.

I've posted a Q&A thread and am waiting for responses. But if we all agree on this ^ I say we wait for the Q&A thread to be answered and move on to who scales. Because to a degree the exact value of what the God Tiers are (whether its tier 3 or tier 2) is coming down to something that a majority don't feel confident on their interpretations of the tiers. So, it looks like we are in agreement that destroying Garganta + Dangai + 3 Realms is some type of universal (uni, high uni, uni+, or low-multi). If that is the case would we like to move on to discussing who scales and why.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

@Arc

Stretching to infinity doesn’t really mean it’s flat out infinite, just that it’s infinitely expanding. Becoming bigger and bigger, but keeping finite size

Just to make that small distinction

The only way stretches or expands would apply is if Garganta followed the principles of our universe. It encompasses SS and WotL two universes. Our universe doesnt contain other 4D constructs

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Replying to Causality now!

• The World of Living is the Material world of The Verse, According to Urahara, he is composed of Kishi, The natural things of The World of Living, this one is different for what SS is made of.

I get this yes. I understand the the Living World is made out of nromal matter (kishi) and not spirit matter (Reishi). This has never been a point of confusion to me.

• The SS is a world of Konpaku, which is a term to call it 'Spiritual' if you want, you need to be a Spiritual being (made of Spiritual particle (Reishi) to go in), this is why you use a gate that convert real matter to spirituals ones, and those world are all made of Reishi.

Again, there has never been my problem. I understand this. You need to convert Kishi into Reishi to go from one world to the other because they can't coexist and whatnot. This isn't an issue for me.

• As explained, the World was in Chaos before it cool down and make it 'normal' as the current universe, now when they talk about the Separation, this is what we need to focus:

Yes, and so Kishi and Reishi were separated alongside the concepts of life and death, with the creation of a Living World and an Afterlife, the Soul Society.

My problem is the following...

This is what we need to answer about your doubt about the size of the Universe, the separation was to make a distinction between what is alive and what is dead, and to do that, SK created a Spiritual Realm when everythings made of Souls (what is dead) live in, this realm is made of Reishi, so Spiritual particle and the other is made of Kishi because it's alive

But the entire universe wasn't split merely into two. Other realms were created alongside with the Garganta. The old universe still "exists" or at least the physical space does. Should these worlds collapse the universe will return to how it once was...

Then I argue that it is impossible for the Living World to be as big as the universe because it's literally inside the universe and only a portion of it.

When they talk about 'Created the World of Living' it's because the Old world was a Chaos made of those particle, everything was either Alive and dead, thos was ambigous, the Old Universe is the Chaos when those things was in a same place. but when they Splitted the Universe, they indeed Created the world of living by separated the Spiritual matter out of the Universe to make a Spiritial Universe and the World of Living, The Physical Universe, it's clear now?

It is clear but this also doesn't confirm that the Living World is the size of the entire original universe that was neither entirely physical / life or spiritual / dead. Both worlds were created after its existence with the separation.

The Old Universe has the size of New because the matter which is what made of physically was kishi, reishi is a non physical matter, everything which is dead is made of Reishi, the Size of the Old Universe can't be larger than the new because what the SS and HC are made is Non physical matter, in other world, spirit particle, i think you should think about the SS as the Spiritual plane of the Universe, just like the common trope of a spiritual realm inside ppl

Isn't the point of the ambiguity is that it wasn't just Kishi or Reishi, it was all mixed in a state of ambiguity that was neither dead nor alive. Which is why it had to be separate?

Like I don't understand how it can be both at once, the language used makes it clear to me that the Living World and Soul Society are both smaller.

In summary, The Old Universe = The Universe when what is alive and death exist in the same plane, by messing the flow of souls which maked the Old Universe work as the New Cosmology, SK and the 5 Family Splited the Old Universe to make a Spiritual Universe for what is dead and a physical for what is alive, unlike the old one when all was in the same plane. The separation was also to prevent the Universe to stagnate once again due to the flow of soul, which could easily be disrupted if Hollow, Spiritual being eat to much huamn, preventing their souls to being recreated in the future and destroy the balance. The only difference between The Old and The New Cosmology is that now, Deads live in the realm of dead and Living ppl live in the Living Realm, the size didn't changed, but the composition did.

The size of the entire universe didn't change yes but it's composition did because it's now made of several realms to separate life and death rather than just one big ambiguous thing . This is my problem, you can't say that the Living World is the size of the universe when it's just a portion of it.

That's all i have to said i guess, i've tried to explain this as better as possible, hope it answer your questions.

I appreciate the effort but I still disagree vehemently on the conclusion of the Living World's size.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Then I argue that it is impossible for the Living World to be as big as the universe because it's literally inside the universe and only a portion of it.

Here's where we say, the Old Universe/Current Bleach Universe can be larger than our IRL Universe, and the WotL can be the size of our IRL Universe.

When we say WotL is as big as the universe, we mean as big as our IRL Universe, not as big as the whole Bleach Universe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've posted a Q&A thread and am waiting for responses. But if we all agree on this ^ I say we wait for the Q&A thread to be answered and move on to who scales. Because to a degree the exact value of what the God Tiers are (whether its tier 3 or tier 2) is coming down to something that a majority don't feel confident on their interpretations of the tiers. So, it looks like we are in agreement that destroying Garganta + Dangai + 3 Realms is some type of universal (uni, high uni, uni+, or low-multi). If that is the case would we like to move on to discussing who scales and why.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

'High 3-A'

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Lmao if that turns out to be what it is then so be it, I was wrong. But can I take this as we are all on the same page that the destruction of the entire Bleach cosmos is some type of uni feat?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean yeah it seems more likely than not I'm not gonna say it's just 5-B or whatever

(The Memories of Nobody movie feat is absolutely just Tier 5 tho because the only things that would collapse into each other were two planets as seem in the actual scene).

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

“At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C” or “At least 3-A, likely higher” since there are other factors as discussed here but some don’t have enough conclusive evidence to get everyone on board hence possibly.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I mean yeah it seems more likely than not I'm not gonna say it's just 5-B or whatever

(The Memories of Nobody movie feat is absolutely just Tier 5 tho because the only things that would collapse into each other were two planets as seem in the actual scene).

Yeah the MoN feat has been calc'd at Low 5-B to 5-A.

But with that said let's get into who scales.

From what I understand the only problem with the scaling is TS Ichigo, seeing how he is admittedly a bit contentious with his showings.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Lmao if that turns out to be what it is then so be it, I was wrong. But can I take this as we are all on the same page that the destruction of the entire Bleach cosmos is some type of uni feat?

11-A: High Hypoverse level​

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

11-A: High Hypoverse level​

11 is bigger than 2 soooo

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

11-A: High Hypoverse level​

sounds good i agree.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not just TS Ichigo. Orihime is also a problem as I have a very hard time believing it’s not outlier for her shields to not be instantly smacked apart.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

But the entire universe wasn't split merely into two. Other realms were created alongside with the Garganta. The old universe still "exists" or at least the physical space does. Should these worlds collapse the universe will return to how it once was...

Then I argue that it is impossible for the Living World to be as big as the universe because it's literally inside the universe and only a portion of it.

Ahh nope. The reishi within Garganta is different compared to SS or HM. The timelines werent a part of the old universe. We're not going to say ReiO didn't create them due to that reason, would we lol?

Muken, Garganta and the timelines are genuinely created by ReiO since they never existed. The old universe doesn't equate to baseline 3-A. The extraction of physical matter from the former cosmos resulted in a universe like ours. No other realms even contain kishi so I don't see why its hard to understand that LW can't be 3A.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not just TS Ichigo. Orihime is also a problem as I have a very hard time believing it’s not outlier for her shields to not be instantly smacked apart.

NGL idgaf about Orihime so if y'all wanna say her shields don't scale despite blocking Yhwach's attacks and her whole narrative being "finally I can fight alongside Ichigo" as being an outlier sure.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Not just TS Ichigo. Orihime is also a problem as I have a very hard time believing it’s not outlier for her shields to not be instantly smacked apart.

Her powers rely on how strong her emotions are, and I’d say they were at an all time high since she believed she could finally help Ichigo and not be a nuisance.

 

[00potato]

Why do we care what you have a hard time believing?
That doesn’t effect any of the showings?
They vary in-verse as well because if the whole emotion thing so I don’t see the problem.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

NGL idgaf about Orihime so if y'all wanna say her shields don't scale despite blocking Yhwach's attacks and her whole narrative being "finally I can fight alongside Ichigo" as being an outlier sure.

the narrative is wrong since ichigo should have hooked up with Rukia this is why i'm against every bleach upgrade

 

[00potato]

Yeah, Matt admits his bias, we go with tier 2 now since his input was invalidated.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Don’t think it would be appropriate bringing home a dead gilf no one can see except his friends lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

the narrative is wrong since ichigo should have hooked up with Rukia this is why i'm against every bleach upgrade

Don't make me open a discussion thread on Orihime vs Rukia as waifus.

But right now we have Almighty Yhwach (and all his stronger forms), TS Merged Hollow Ichigo (and all his stronger forms), EoS Aizen, and Prime SK all scaling to "At least 3-A, higher tiers pending"

 

[AppleLord]

Replying to Causality now!


I get this yes. I understand the the Living World is made out of nromal matter (kishi) and not spirit matter (Reishi). This has never been a point of confusion to me.


Again, there has never been my problem. I understand this. You need to convert Kishi into Reishi to go from one world to the other because they can't coexist and whatnot. This isn't an issue for me.

Yes, and so Kishi and Reishi were separated alongside the concepts of life and death, with the creation of a Living World and an Afterlife, the Soul Society.

My problem is the following...


But the entire universe wasn't split merely into two. Other realms were created alongside with the Garganta. The old universe still "exists" or at least the physical space does. Should these worlds collapse the universe will return to how it once was...

Then I argue that it is impossible for the Living World to be as big as the universe because it's literally inside the universe and only a portion of it.


It is clear but this also doesn't confirm that the Living World is the size of the entire original universe that was neither entirely physical / life or spiritual / dead. Both worlds were created after its existence with the separation.


Isn't the point of the ambiguity is that it wasn't just Kishi or Reishi, it was all mixed in a state of ambiguity that was neither dead nor alive. Which is why it had to be separate?

Like I don't understand how it can be both at once, the language used makes it clear to me that the Living World and Soul Society are both smaller.


The size of the entire universe didn't change yes but it's composition did because it's now made of several realms to separate life and death rather than just one big ambiguous thing . This is my problem, you can't say that the Living World is the size of the universe when it's just a portion of it.


I appreciate the effort but I still disagree vehemently on the conclusion of the Living World's size.

I argue that it is impossible for the Living World to be as big as the universe because it's literally inside the universe and only a portion of it.

Both the Soul Society and Living World know the word “Universe”. Just by that info there is room for the contrary believe. The old universe could be bigger than ours, and the living world the same as ours. In the scans I posted before the Soul Society is mentioned as a “universe” collapsing into the world of the living. Both are treated as equal size universes by the author.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Don’t think it would be appropriate bringing home a dead gilf no one can see except his friends lol

Now that just sounds like time for invisible hanky panky

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Her powers rely on how strong her emotions are, and I’d say they were at an all time high since she believed she could finally help Ichigo and not be a nuisance.

Ofc cuz Orihime must protect her husbando, that’s 1-A

Jokes aside, this sounds more like the typical “power of friendship” thing than an actual ability. Why wouldn’t orihimes shields be indestructible against any of Ichigos enemies then if all it was limited by was her emotions?

While much weaker than in the war arc, Orihimes emotions were at an all time high in Hueco Mundo as well while Ichigo was on the brink of death against Ulquiorra. Didn’t stop Ulquiorra from smashing them with a tail smash.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

the narrative is wrong since ichigo should have hooked up with Rukia this is why i'm against every bleach upgrade

Well Ichihime is sh** and hot trash.

 

[Zoro21043]

about true shikai ichigo here yhwach attempted to kill both mimihagi and rei o
and ichigo took the hit with minimal damage
and it already accepted in bleach to damage someone you would have to at least overcome their passive release of spirit energy and soul king maintains the world passively so ichigo would scale for taking that attack from yhwach

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

about true shikai ichigo here yhwach attempted to kill both mimihagi and rei o
and ichigo took the hit with minimal damage
and it already accepted in bleach to damage someone you would have to at least overcome their passive release of spirit energy and soul king maintains the world passively so ichigo would scale for taking that attack from yhwach

I wouldn’t use this as a reasoning unless you want fodder like Renji and others scaling based off this.