Bleach Distance Calculation and Associated Calcs

[Damage3245]

This thread is to address a distance calculation in Bleach which I have had issues with for a long time.

After consulting with other staff members I’ve concluded that a calculation which uses extremely lowballed and obviously inaccurate figures should not be used just because the alternative is calc-stacking.

We’re using the results of this obviously incorrect calc to support multiple other calcs for the verse.

I think the simplest and best solution is to just get rid of this inaccurate distance calc and the associated calcs that depend on it.

The distance calc is here, which uses human freefall speed to get a distance of 88905600 m. Nowhere in the manga is it stated or implied that this is the case. It is obviously a figure that is being used just to avoid the problem of calc stacking.

The calcs that depend on it are:

• Auswählen Speed – 0.19c (Relativistic)
• Liltotto dodging Auswählen – 0.16c (Relativistic)
• Yhwach’s Beam – 0.29c (Relativistic)
• Mimihagi’s Speed – 0.29c (Relativistic)
• Yhwach lifts the Seireitei - 8.09 Zettatons (Small Planet level)

The profiles this would affect are:

• Yhwach (Via the Small Planet level calc)
• Mimihagi (Via its speed calc of travelling to the Soul King's palace)
• Liltotto Lamperd (Via her speed calc of dodging Yhwach's Auswahlen)
• Meninas McAllon (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Giselle Gewelle (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Cancide Catnipp (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Bambietta Basterbine (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Sajin Komamura (Via scaling to Bambietta)

If any calc group members or staff members have any input, please feel free to add to this thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with this.

 

[AKM sama]

Ichigo using Shunpo would not run around the stairs in circles, but hop from edge to – on a subjacent level – edge.

Using a regular humans body freefall.

The first doesn't necessarily have to be true. This "method" of travelling is not stated anywhere, it seems like a big assumption to make. And even then, saying the method is to hop from one edge to another to another which would require momentary stops in between and then using free fall to calculate it which is entirely different method with continuous motion?

Low end or high end, this works with a lot of assumptions and is clearly inaccurate. It seems this was done just to dodge calc stacking so the feat does not reach outlier levels of speed. I agree with Damage here.

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you both for commenting.

The profiles this would affect are:

• Yhwach (Via the Small Planet level calc)
• Mimihagi (Via its speed calc of travelling to the Soul King's palace)
• Liltotto Lamperd (Via her speed calc of dodging Yhwach's Auswahlen)
• Meninas McAllon (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Giselle Gewelle (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Cancide Catnipp (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Bambietta Basterbine (Via scaling to Liltotto)
• Sajin Komamura (Via scaling to Bambietta)

Less than I thought, fortunately.

 

[AppleLord]

”I think the simplest and best solution is to just get rid of this inaccurate distance calc and the associated calcs that depend on it.”

So the big plan here is to eliminate the calc without trying to fix or find a better way to calc it? Just ignore the feat forever? Am I reading this right?

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; if somebody creates a more accurate version of the calc which can be evaluated, that'd be good. But my primary concern first of all is to remove the flawed calculations from the verse page and the profiles.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

At a first glance based on my memory, I would probably have to agree with Damage. I think assuming freefalling would be just as flawed if not more than the normal shunpo method.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Especially the whole "need to stop and rest" compleatly discarding the fact he has been able to move fight etc. For weeks and months

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Especially the whole "need to stop and rest" compleatly discarding the fact he has been able to move fight etc. For weeks and months

That is honestly a fair point, but if you mean shunpo, it by nature isn't really a continuous speed boost. But I think by this point in the series if we found some way to accept his speed or at least use a bare minimum based off things outside of a calc (which there is plenty of) then there should probably be some way to apply it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So let me get this right, this calc that multiple staff praised as good is actually bad (even though multiple knowledgeable dudes called it out several times over the course of 2 years or so) and the alternative here that everyone agrees with is to scrap the calc completely and leave the verse with no alternatives?

 

[Link_Eternal]

I'm confused, and also not sure if I should post this question here.

If the calculation is so blatantly lowballed and only inaccurate in the sense that we all know that the values should be higher, why wouldn't the freefall distance simply give everyone who scales to it an At Least? It provides a nice minimum to use as reference.

The visuals blatantly show that Ichigo jumped off the edge of the SKP and fell. So unless the argument is that he somehow fell slower than freefall (and I don't understand why the calc didn't just use terminal velocity) there is no way the distance could be less than this. And thus, no way the speed values could be less than they are. Unless the speed calcs themselves are faulty, but they were evaluated so I find that unlikely.

The only problem there would be if speed values for the characters are later calc'ed to be slower.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The first doesn't necessarily have to be true. This "method" of travelling is not stated anywhere, it seems like a big assumption to make. And even then, saying the method is to hop from one edge to another to another which would require momentary stops in between and then using free fall to calculate it which is entirely different method with continuous motion?

Low end or high end, this works with a lot of assumptions and is clearly inaccurate. It seems this was done just to dodge calc stacking so the feat does not reach outlier levels of speed. I agree with Damage here.

I don’t see what makes this calc so hard to quantify? Normally it takes 12 hours. Ichigo does it in 9 going maximum speed (it’s the middle of a war). He isn’t traveling down a set of stairs. We legit see him every scene propelling down like a rocket.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For Sigurd, if they have arguments to justify this then that's great, but otherwise staff agreeing with it beforehand is not much an argument.

For Link Eternal, having a plain wrong calc and saying its a lowball doesn't really help much at all. As far as I understand using actual feats on their levels leads to massive outliers too, which makes it even worse.

 

[Ovy7]

It actually takes 7 days of shunpo normally, that's what Kirinji told Ichigo IIRC, not 12 hours. Ichigo did it in 9h because he was hurrying as the invasion had already started.

Edit: ye, Kirinji said it would take Ichigo a week with his regular shunpo:

Spoiler

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

For Sigurd, if they have arguments to justify this then that's great, but otherwise staff agreeing with it beforehand is not much an argument.

For Link Eternal, having a plain wrong calc and saying its a lowball doesn't really help much at all. As far as I understand using actual feats on their levels leads to massive outliers too, which makes it even worse.

My point Risci is they intentionally agreed with it and forced us to use it for like 2 years...

 

[M3X_2.0]

So let me get this right, this calc that multiple staff praised as good is actually bad (even though multiple knowledgeable dudes called it out several times over the course of 2 years or so) and the alternative here that everyone agrees with is to scrap the calc completely and leave the verse with no alternatives?

This. It is really hard to agree with a downgrade when the OP simply want to downgrade, and doesn't care for an alternative calc.

 

[Tyri456]

Why do not use the speed of sound for the distance?

Discarding a calc when even by your admission is lowballed, and it is a constant speed feat in the verse since both auswhalen, and mimihagi, yet the lifting feat itself is that fast and are based to that distance is just do not want to find a solution for something that is important to the verse on this wiki, from my point of view removing that calc without find a solution is likely transform the profile is something even more innacurate.

I'm surprised that people actually agree with this, without even bothering to find a solution.

 

[Damage3245]

This. It is really hard to agree with a downgrade when the OP simply want to downgrade, and doesn't care for an alternative calc.

It's not much of a downgrade. The Yhwach with the Small Planet level calc scales to At least Planet level, and the characters who are Relativistic will either still be Relativistic for another reason or be Unknown.

@Tyri456; a solution is getting rid of the incorrect calcs. If somebody produces a more accurate calc, then great. But in the mean time there is nothing wrong with getting rid of the incorrect one.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I have asked USKlavery about this

He said he will talk with other calc member

 

[M3X_2.0]

I don't care for their ratings, you are making a downgrade, you need to show us a solution. You can't simply downgrade this and ignore. YOU should give us a solution, and not wait some member create a new version of the calculation.

I am not in favor of this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't care for their ratings, you are making a downgrade, you need to show us a solution. You can't simply downgrade this and ignore. YOU should give us a solution, and not wait some member create a new version of the calculation.

I am not in favor of this thread.

Since when is that a rule? That a bad calc being removed has to automatically be replaced with another calc.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It has to be a rule? Or you just don't want to recalc it? Anyway, my opinion wont change.

 

[Damage3245]

It has to be a rule? Or you just don't want to recalc it? Anyway, my opinion wont change.

Okay, well I just checked with a Bureaucrat of the wiki and it isn't compulsory to re-calc a replacement. Bad calcs can just be removed entirely.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Thanks for the OBVIOUS answer. My opinion wont change

 

[Link_Eternal]

Hmm, At Least, or just Higher Than would still be accurate, and since when were lowballs not allowed, because the calc is not wrong, it is minimal.

But regardless, my take: Removing this calc from feats in which this one is the sole justification is weird, but whatever.
Removing this calc from being a supporting feat is absolutely absurd, particularly when the feats this supports would be higher than it, so I disagree.

As for a solution:
Mimihagi would scale above Renji anyway no?
Auswählen and the death beam would just scale to Ywhach's attack speed, since they are his attacks. Lilotto would very minimally scale to this, (and since she was already Rel with an extremely lowballed calc, this shouldn't be a issue)
Small Planet gets axed, we don't need it anyway

 

[AppleLord]

Why do not use the speed of sound for the distance?

Discarding a calc when even by your admission is lowballed, and it is a constant speed feat in the verse since both auswhalen, and mimihagi, yet the lifting feat itself is that fast and are based to that distance is just do not want to find a solution for something that is important to the verse on this wiki, from my point of view removing that calc without find a solution is likely transform the profile is something even more innacurate.

I'm surprised that people actually agree with this, without even bothering to find a solution.

That won't do. The character was going at max speeds and his casual speed after he arrives at the scene is blitzing lighting that is faster than natural lightning.

 

[Tyri456]

That won't do. The character was going at max speeds and his casual speed after he arrives at the scene is blitzing lighting that is faster than natural lightning.

For the shunpo speed not Ichigo speed.

 

[AppleLord]

That is honestly a fair point, but if you mean shunpo, it by nature isn't really a continuous speed boost. But I think by this point in the series if we found some way to accept his speed or at least use a bare minimum based off things outside of a calc (which there is plenty of) then there should probably be some way to apply it.

Shunpo is a "single-step" move, so Ichigo could travel 604800 seconds at 0.6 seconds per step according to Kirinji.

Here is a calc that I did for Shunsui back in SS arc.

 

[AppleLord]

For the shunpo speed not Ichigo speed.

We can't called the "shunpo speed" for obvious reasons.

1. Shunpo is always portrait like-teleportation.
2. The shunpo statement was for the stairs.
3. We haven't seen any form of Shunpo that is not linear, so it won't work on the stairs.
4. Ichigo was shown breaking the sound barrier twice in a row, so we can at least put Shunpo at the speed of sound, but going by Shunsui's shunpo feat, not all Shunpo have the same feat.
6. Ichigo's shunpo blitzed Candice who is faster than natural lightning at the moment he crashed against the tower and appeared behind the female Quincies.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@DemonGodMitchAubin mind looking over the feat/calc?

 

[Tyri456]

"Using regular Shunpo will take 7 days"

So, human body falling is a no sense for the reasons above, speed of lighting can even be too much for normal shunpo, even do it can make sense, it can also not make sense from other point of view like using it for 7 days constantly.

My opinion, why do not use the speed of Sound?

Speed of Sound is something very basic for the verse, for something that has to mainteined for long distance, knowing that fodder hollow can have their speed rated as supersonic on our wiki, assuming that an average shinigami can blitz them as Ichigo did even in the firsts chapters, maintaning the speed of sound it is something really basic for standard shunpo speed.

It can be a good and accurate estimation of what Kirinji said, since we obviouly know, he do not know Ichigo since ichigo made the distance in 9 hours, Kirinji was obviously reffering to something like more based on an average opinion reagarding at least relevant Shinigami taht crossed the distance.

So, we have 604800 seconds, speed of sound is 343 m/s, distance is 208.051.200m

Which is for sure more accurate than the one currently used, and most likely the most accurate result you can obtain without calc-stacking.

 

[Damage3245]

@Tyri456; do you think Ichigo's top speed is only around 14 times faster than the speed of sound?

Even if it is slightly more accurate, it still suffers from the same basic flaw as the current calc. Just trying to avoid calc-stacking should not be an excuse.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Tyri456; do you think Ichigo's top speed is only around 14 times faster than the speed of sound?

I don’t see what this means since calcs are lowballed all the time.

 

[AppleLord]

@Tyri456; do you think Ichigo's top speed is only around 14 times faster than the speed of sound?

Even if it is slightly more accurate, it still suffers from the same basic flaw as the current calc. Just trying to avoid calc-stacking should not be an excuse.

We have three options.

1. Remove the calc altogether and never bring it up again.
2. Use calc-stacking (candice calc) or low-ball (speed of sound).
3. Use Ichigo's feat of blitzing faster than lighting speeds casually, as his "normal shunpo" speed.

 

[Damage3245]

@AppleLord; in this situation, my preference is option 1.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord; in this situation, my preference is option 1.

You made that clear on the OP.

Thoughts on the third option?

 

[Tyri456]

@Tyri456; do you think Ichigo's top speed is only around 14 times faster than the speed of sound?

Even if it is slightly more accurate, it still suffers from the same basic flaw as the current calc. Just trying to avoid calc-stacking should not be an excuse.

You are right, the current one suffers of that problem.

Using speed of sound avoid that problem completely to be honest.

And we are talking about travel speed, and a lowballed one.

 

[AppleLord]

You are right, the current one suffers of that problem.

Using speed of sound avoid that problem completely to be honest.

And we are talking about travel speed, and a lowballed one.

OP doesn't want a lowballed calc that's the whole point of removing the calc. He wants an accurate one which which is only possible using lightning speeds and the 9 hours, but his suggestion is to remove it all together.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, I can see major issues with this, free fall speed is just inaccurate, I wanted to try and be a devil’s advocate here, but this is just inherently flawed, in general I don’t like the idea of finding the distance of something by using a speed that is assumed, that kind of calc is just wrong in general unless you have a confirmed or nearly confirmed speed to use

So I agree that either the calcs get thrown away in general or we redo them using another method entirely

 

[Tyri456]

OP doesn't want a lowballed calc that's the whole point of removing the calc. He wants an accurate one which which is only possible using lightning speeds and the 9 hours, but his suggestion is to remove it all together.

low ball calc are fine lol, the problem with the current one is that it is too much a low ball.

Using speed of sound is reasonable, and you can't really argue against it.
The only argument you can use here, is that it is too low, but the difference between human body fall and speed of sounds is enourmous, therefore, my solutions is by far more accurate.

Either way that was my suggestion, I do not see any other solution unless trying some sort of elaborate calc at the limit of the calc stacking trying to find Ichigo speed at the impact, using statements like situation or something like that.