Bleach Distance Calculation and Associated Calcs

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Is there no speed statements for the verse for characters they are equal to or faster? You know, like "I can break the sound barrier" or "my attack crosses ten kilometers instantly!"?

Someone doesn't need to fix something to point out its broken, so the calc will certainly be removed as it is right now. If they have direct statements for a speed they are at though, the calc should be able to be made. Whether its an outlier though is another discussion again.

 

[Damage3245]

With three staff members in agreement for removing the calcs, I'll take care of the editing for the profiles and the verse page tonight.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Damage has begun his onslaught of chainsawing the tree that is Bleach, I pray for the supporters

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Not sure why you are rushing? I completely agree we should throw it out but a perfectly valid alternative of Mach 1 has been put forth as Ichigo breaks the sound barrier with his jump from the SKP. No idea why you don’t seem to even entertain the idea when you say you are fine with an alternative calc being done.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I also mentioned above that USKlaveri is discussing with some calc members

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I do agree this was fast, but my issue is still assuming speed and then using that assumed speed to find distance and then using that distance for another speed calc

Even with a higher speed, that method in general doesn’t seem right to me, are there any alternative methods we can use to find the distance?

 

[AppleLord]

low ball calc are fine lol, the problem with the current one is that it is too much a low ball.

Using speed of sound is reasonable, and you can't really argue against it.
The only argument you can use here, is that it is too low, but the difference between human body fall and speed of sounds is enourmous, therefore, my solutions is by far more accurate.

Either way that was my suggestion, I do not see any other solution unless trying some sort of elaborate calc at the limit of the calc stacking trying to find Ichigo speed at the impact, using statements like situation or something like that.

How can you subject to use a "low-ball speed of sound for his maximum speed" when his "casual speed is faster than natural lightning"?

I addressed on post #29 that the speed of sound could be used, but that is still inaccurate for Ichigo who is top tier in the verse.

Squad 2 ninjas who are below lieutenants are lighting speed and that division specializes in shunpo. Shunsui's shunpo is MHS. And you want to use SOS for Ichigo's shunpo even when he never used shunpo in that scene? He flew down at max speeds and on arrival he casually blitzed a character that is faster than natural lighting.

The accurate and low-ball speed for his Shunpo is lightning speed which slower than his max speed used on the feat.

 

[Tyri456]

With three staff members in agreement for removing the calcs, I'll take care of the editing for the profiles and the verse page tonight.

Agreeing without even properly counter what I posted, sure.

What is the point of make the post in first place. What is the point of letting member using this forum if what is needed is just 3 agreement from staff without even countering what members say?

Before closing this thread, at least explain me why speed of sound cannot be used when we know for sure is an higher speed, and I explained why it is right.

 

[Tyri456]

How can you subject to use a "low-ball speed of sound for his maximum speed" when his "casual speed is faster than natural lightning"?

I addressed on post #29 that the speed of sound could be used, but that is still inaccurate for Ichigo who is top tier in the verse.

Squad 2 ninjas who are below lieutenants are lighting speed and that division specializes in shunpo. Shunsui's shunpo is MHS. And you want to use SOS for Ichigo's shunpo even when he never used shunpo in that scene? He flew down at max speeds and on arrival he casually blitzed a character that is faster than natural lighting.

The accurate and low-ball speed for his Shunpo is lightning speed which slower than his max speed used on the feat.

That do no address anything, Im not talking about Ichigo, and we are talking about travel speed, not sure why you keep saying the same thing.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I do agree this was fast, but my issue is still assuming speed and then using that assumed speed to find distance and then using that distance for another speed calc

Even with a higher speed, that method in general doesn’t seem right to me, are there any alternative methods we can use to find the distance?

I don’t really get this if the assumed speed is the bare min it could be. The feat can only be higher than that calc.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well, lowballing something severely doesn’t make it accurate, the issue here is that so many different speeds can be assumed meaning that the actual proper distance can vary extremely


The only analogy I can think of is that it’s like saying the distance is a number between 1 and 100 and then assuming 1 as a lowball, it’s just a very jank method that I don’t think can give us a solid distance that is accurate

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well, lowballing something severely doesn’t make it accurate, the issue here is that so many different speeds can be assumed meaning that the actual proper distance can vary extremely


The only analogy I can think of is that it’s like saying the distance is a number between 1 and 100 and then assuming 1 as a lowball, it’s just a very jank method that I don’t think can give us a solid distance that is accurate

I get that, but isn’t that a basic calc thing people do here? If every number isn’t given to you for the calc you use an assumption which is usually the lowest value as a low end because it can’t be disputed.

I’ve seen calcs of FTL characters using peak human reaction speeds.

everything for this feat is given to us besides how fast Ichigo was moving. We have a timeframe it normally takes and we have a timeframe Ichigo took. We know he traveled straight and he went at least as fast as the speed of sound...

 

[AppleLord]

That do no address anything, Im not talking about Ichigo, and we are talking about travel speed, not sure why you keep saying the same thing.

Post #29 normal shinigami shunpo cannot be used.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I get that, but isn’t that a basic calc thing people do here? If every number isn’t given to you for the calc you use an assumption which is usually the lowest value as a low end because it can’t be disputed.

I’ve seen calcs of FTL characters using peak human reaction speeds.

everything for this feat is given to us besides how fast Ichigo was moving. We have a timeframe it normally takes and we have a timeframe Ichigo took. We know he traveled straight and he went at least as fast as the speed of sound...

That’s a fair point, I’m more neutral now, still don’t like the scaling method in general, but I see where you’re coming from

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Anyways this is a link to the feat



It’s pretty clear here to me that the speed of sound should be used for his travel speed.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd be okay with that if we downgrade Ichigo's speed rating to Supersonic.

Otherwise we're just substituing one false value for another.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Using low-balls based on existing statements is absolutely something that can be done, Damage. If a person is stated to be faster than the speed of sound, then even if we have a higher speed rating for them, a calc can be done with speed of sound regardless.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why would he be downgraded to Supersonic? This makes literally no sense. You can say this for literally every lowballed calc on this wiki.

 

[Damage3245]

Using low-balls based on existing statements is absolutely something that can be done, Damage. If a person is stated to be faster than the speed of sound, then even if we have a higher speed rating for them, a calc can be done with speed of sound regardless.

Low-balling a calc by thousands of times just to get a value to use for the sake of other calcs is something that I'm not cool with.

We're basically saying "We're not allowed to calc this properly due to calc-stacking, so let's just throw in a much, much, much lower number so we can get something we can use."

You're using a value that you know for a fact is wrong. You know that Ichigo rushing at max speed is not travelling at around Supersonic speed.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That’s how every calc works for long progressive series dude. If we don’t have a direct statement for speed we cannot use a calculated speed in another calc.
You’re suggesting we calc stack or nothing. When the feat clearly illustrates Ichigo going at least speed of sound.

 

[Tyri456]

Speed of Sound is the minimun speed feat used for bleach.
Coming from standard explosion, stanrdard speed of sound feats.

Why it cant be used as standard value for the shunpo for travel speed in this case? Speed of sound is the requirement for any average relevent shinigami that want to kill hollow.

Assuming That is the standard value for shunpo used by Kirinji, is extremely fair and consistent.

What is wrong in using speed of sound for travel speed on 7 days? When average shinigame are MHS.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

First of all, it would simply not be incorrect. No matter how you slice it, he was moving faster than sound at that point, and saying that with calc stacking the feat could be higher applies to most calcs involving interaction with distances or multiple characters.

This calc was wrong due to the baseless premise, not because it is a low-ball.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

“Using speed of characters or attacks calculated at other instances can't be used, as characters and attacks can vary in speed. This is the case regardless of whether the character is seriously trying to do his best or anything similar.”

“The reason it is usually disregarded is because it has shown itself inconsistent many times and usually gives inflated results. Through the method any long running franchises could also scale their stats infinitely upwards without actually ever showing any feats in the range they are listed.”

Like it’s literally on the calc stacking page not to do that. Ichigos speed rating is irrelevant to calcs.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, calculated speed can't be used for obvious reasons. But a stated speed has no reason to be rejected.

 

[AppleLord]

I recommend using the lightning speed Ichigo for the Soul King Palace distance:

Ichigo's casual speed after his training in the final arc is faster than lighting speed, and his max speed needed for this calc is “unknown” so we have to use the speed of lightning for the calc as a low-ball.

But how did I reach the conclusion that Ichigo is lightning speed?

Ichigo's minimum shown speed is casually blitzing point blank lightning, after he arrived from the palace distance. It means that his speed cannot have changed.

Candice lightning is summoned from the clouds.

The light novels confirmed that even when the lightning girl (in the scan above), Candice's power got weaker (Yhwach took her Quincy Vollstandig which matches the Shinigami Bankai multiplier of 5-10x) still surpassed the power of any lightning in nature.

And it doesn't seem to be about the power, but just in general. Clouds and sounds of thunder are referenced multiple times. (There are also other feats/explanation for other character's abilities like Meninas and Giriko.)

In this other scenario, Tokinada a Captain who is weaker than Ichigo, reacted to the speed of lighting from a fodder Ninja from the second division who are not even captain level.

There’s no way Ichigo isn’t that lighting speed casually as shown in the scans, there is no outlier, and is fair to use.

I'll use 443842 m/s the average lightning speed accepted in VS Battle Wiki, based on the feat above.

"The speed of lightning can vary mostly in the range of 1.0-14×105 m/s. For the purpose of calculating speed feats we use the average lightning speed of 4.4×105 m/s (Mach 1294), which is suggested by this study. Similar studies have found average speeds within the same order of magnitude, albeit lower."

And before you say, “he rested” Ichigo training for a week in a treadmill designed to drain his spiritual energy and trained for months without rest.

Here is the accepted stamina thread for Ichigo's character.

Now that that is out of the way let’s make the calc.

CALC

Timeframe:

Normally it would take a week:

604800 seconds, but... Ichigo arrived earlier than expected by those who trained him, going at full speed.

He even crashed on arrival.

From the Clock Tower in Seireitei, and Ichibei's statement.

The Quincy take over Seireitei began at 5 pm the first day.

Ichigo went down after 3 hours at 8 pm

Ichigo arrived at 5:15 am the next day.

That's 9 hours and 15 minutes or 33,300 seconds.

distance = speed x time

distance = 14779900000 miles

Important note the distance isn't "realistic" is not a counter argument, because the distance is in between two different dimensions that can only be cross when the 72 barriers/doors that connected and open. Ichigo broke them all on his way down.

 

[Damage3245]

@Sigurd; that's a reason against using Ichigo's speed in the calc, yes. Which is why I'm suggesting we don't calc it using Ichigo's speed at all - including obviously wrong values for his speed.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Sigurd; that's a reason against using Ichigo's speed in the calc, yes. Which is why I'm suggesting we don't calc it using Ichigo's speed at all - including obviously wrong values for his speed.

Speed of Sound is not a calculated speed Damage. It’s the quantifiably visible speed we see him traveling at in scans. It can be used. It’s not even as assumption it’s factually what we see on the panel.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I recommend using the lightning speed Ichigo for the Soul King Palace distance:

Ichigo's casual speed after his training in the final arc is faster than lighting speed, and his max speed needed for this calc is “unknown” so we have to use the speed of lightning for the calc as a low-ball.

But how did I reach the conclusion that Ichigo is lightning speed?

Ichigo's minimum shown speed is casually blitzing point blank lightning, after he arrived from the palace distance. It means that his speed cannot have changed.

Candice lightning is summoned from the clouds.

The light novels confirmed that even when the lightning girl (in the scan above), Candice's power got weaker (Yhwach took her Quincy Vollstandig which matches the Shinigami Bankai multiplier of 5-10x) still surpassed the power of any lightning in nature.

And it doesn't seem to be about the power, but just in general. Clouds and sounds of thunder are referenced multiple times. (There are also other feats/explanation for other character's abilities like Meninas and Giriko.)

In this other scenario, Tokinada a Captain who is weaker than Ichigo, reacted to the speed of lighting from a fodder Ninja from the second division who are not even captain level.

There’s no way Ichigo isn’t that lighting speed casually as shown in the scans, there is no outlier, and is fair to use.

I'll use 443842 m/s the average lightning speed accepted in VS Battle Wiki, based on the feat above.

"The speed of lightning can vary mostly in the range of 1.0-14×105 m/s. For the purpose of calculating speed feats we use the average lightning speed of 4.4×105 m/s (Mach 1294), which is suggested by this study. Similar studies have found average speeds within the same order of magnitude, albeit lower."

And before you say, “he rested” Ichigo training for a week in a treadmill designed to drain his spiritual energy and trained for months without rest.

Here is the accepted stamina thread for Ichigo's character.

Now that that is out of the way let’s make the calc.

CALC

Timeframe:

Normally it would take a week:

604800 seconds, but... Ichigo arrived earlier than expected by those who trained him, going at full speed.

He even crashed on arrival.

From the Clock Tower in Seireitei, and Ichibei's statement.

The Quincy take over Seireitei began at 5 pm the first day.

Ichigo went down after 3 hours at 8 pm

Ichigo arrived at 5:15 am the next day.

That's 9 hours and 15 minutes or 33,300 seconds.

distance = speed x time

distance = 14779900000 miles

Important note the distance isn't "realistic" is not a counter argument, because the distance is in between two different dimensions that can only be cross when the 72 barriers/doors that connected and open. Ichigo broke them all on his way down.

This seems good imo

 

[AnonymousBlank]

While I personally would prefer using lightning speed as we visibly see Ichigo perform such feats directly after this feat, I can see why it would be ignored in favour of Mach 1 since that is actually shown in the feat in question. To appease supporters of either number, a low end of Mach 1 should be used (as this is the minimum Ichigo could have gone) and a high end of lightning (since he is shown to be faster than said speeds directly after). Calc members obviously have final say on which end is used.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

While I personally would prefer using lightning speed as we visibly see Ichigo perform such feats directly after this feat, I can see why it would be ignored in favour of Mach 1 since that is actually shown in the feat in question. To appease supporters of either number, a low end of Mach 1 should be used (as this is the minimum Ichigo could have gone) and a high end of lightning (since he is shown to be faster than said speeds directly after). Calc members obviously have final say on which end is used.

There's actually no reason to disagree with this^

If we are not allowed to use Ichigo's actual speed to avoid inflated numbers via calc-stacking. Then by default we can only get lowballs off of what we see, so arguing the distance won't be entirely accurate because the author didn't spoon feed us the exact speed Ichigo travelled in meters per second is quite frankly ridiculous. Also, the fact that Damage doesn't even want to entertain these alternatives and is cutting off the discussion in favor of his choice is kind of disgusting. This is a dialogue, let the discussion wrap up before you decide everyone else's viewpoints are irrelevant.

 

[Tyri456]

Ichigo going at speed of lighting is not that incosistent to be honest, but I think for some reasons there is the idea it cant be used even if there are not reasons to do not use it.

Either way I argued to use the speed of sound not for Ichigo (which obv go faster than sound)
But the shunpo average speed on the 7 days. Those are 2 different Calc.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

For ichigo LS speed would be as a lowball imo but is safest to use

Also squad 2 assassins are speed of lightning as said above

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Issue with the average Shunpo speed is that we don’t actually have that figure. We have calcs for people slower than Ichigo but those automatically can’t be used and Omnitsukido are praised for their speed meaning they would be above the average even if Ichigo logically scales above them so that is out as well imo. It would definitely be valid support for the fact Ichigo is FTE to lightning timers right after the travel feat.

 

[Damage3245]

The changes have been made. Another calc can be made if anybody is interested in making one. I'm closing this thread for now since the original proposal has been implemented.