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Black Clover Licht's problems

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So, apparently Black Clover is ranked as Small Country through a calculation involving the "destruction" of the clover kingdom. The problem is that such destruction does not exist, the author of the calculation assumed a totally theoretical and hypothetical formula that cannot be applied because we do not know if the clover kingdom would be destroyed in such a way. We are not even aware of whether the kingdom itself would indeed be totally destroyed, as Lumiere never claims such a thing. His only mention is to fear what could happen to the kingdom, but its destruction as a whole is never mentioned. Either way, the scaling would also be completely wrong. There is no way that the apostles would scale his demonic form, and even Lumiere was said to not being able to defend himself from Licht's strongest attack. Btw, it would be pretty ridiculous to believe that Noelle and Gauche is on a par with the first wizard king.

My solution to this would be to calculate the size of the demonic Licht and then use his KE to define a tier, and only Top-tiers like Licht, Lumiere Kotodama Devil and some others should scale.


  • Only Licht should remain Low 6-B in his demonic form just using his strongest spell.
  • Any character that scale to this should go back to 7-B.
  • Due to base Licht's 11x multipliers, Asta (with Black Divider), Yuno (with Spirit of Zephyr) should be around 7-A.
Agreeing: DemonGodMitchAubin, Ryuga21, Siegfired10, Antvasima, Ah Gou, Shadowgun 45, The Prince of Counters, Lenne Charlotte Typhoon.

Disagreeing: Epsilon R, Ionliosite, Dragonmasterxyz.
As someone who is as knowledgable and well versed in magic as the First Wizard King, I would think he's a reliable source in what an attack will do. Not just that, but the Word Devil also believes this as well who while I don't believe as well versed in magic should know quite a bit. To me, that seems like a solid enough reason to believe that the attack will do what they believe it will do.

Onto the method used to calc the AP, don't know enough about calcing to have a useful opinion on the subject. But if the calc formula used isn't a good one, then it should be remade with the proper method for calcing such a feat if we have one.

Onto what you propose for AP, I would disagree since Demon Licht looks to attack exclusively with Magic. Trying to use his phsycial size to calc AP just seem strange. Sure physically he might be as powerful as the calc but when he doesn't ever really do anything with his physical AP I don't think it would make sense.

And finally the scaling, should definetly be fixed. It's messy at the moment and is leading to some inflated ratings.
In fact, however he don't says openly that the whole kingdom would be pulverized or destroyed, not to mention that this would be incalculable because you would have to strongly suppose a formula for a feat that never even occurred. In different works the way a city or kingdom is destroyed varies a lot, it can be a simple explosion, a crater and so on. Licht fighting physically or not is not important here because the simple fact that he can move or throw punches would generate enough energy for his AP via KE.

Also like I said before Lumiere would not scale to Licht's potential country level blast, as he only saw the attack and claimed he was unable to defend it and if it weren't for Sekke he wouldn't have succeeded, consequently Licht's durability neither would have the same level of this unnamed technique.
Could you please edit the thread title to something actually descriptive of what the thread is about?
First of all, feats that don't occur but are considered possible can be calced and applied to profiles here. After that we would do something we tend to do with calculations and that's form an assumption, hell, the calc you propose relies on the same thing. So assumning whatever makes the most sense would be what we do in this case.

Onto Licht, my entire issue with trying to use his KE for his AP is the fact that he doesn't use it to attack. And there is a very clear difference between the physical strength of characters and the maigical strength of characters within the verse. Their is no correlation between the two. So him never fighting physically should be a big deal.
First, the calculation that I propose is not based on an assumption, since the fact that his body can move enters in the whole criterion. Don't try to force hypocrisies, if Licht were an immobile fighter who could only attack with magic it would be a completely different story. He doesn't use the KE to attack doesn't change the fact that he can, remember this is just movement.

Second, I didn't say at any time that you can't use assumptions in a calculation (This is what happens most to find a dimension like height), but suppose a whole formula for a type of feat that could encompass severals is very dishonest to me. The quote is notoriously incalculable, due to the lack of information.
Also, even if Licht could generate a country level energy no one but himself (Only to AP because his durability didn't seem to match the level of this technique) should scale to that. As Lumiere said, not even him could defend himself against that energy ball.
The calc you are requesting does require an assumption, which is that of his speed. Especially since we have no panels that show any clear movement shots of Demon Licht. And my entire issue with trying to base AP off of his size is the mere fact that it wouldn't be accurate to what he's acutally doing since their is no scaling for his actual attacks to the energy he would make by moving. We wouldn't know if he was stronger or weaker with his magic since there is no correlation between the two.

And both calcs used, show all the information present for what is neeeded. We know an explosion is what we occur, we know it's supposed to destroy the whole country, and we can even determine the size of the country from there. Hell, in the first calc created for Licht's AP, its pointed out that standard assumptions are being followed by a calc member. So it's not notoriously uncalcable. And if it only scales to Licht's AP, then fine, that's how its going to go but that doesn't discount the feat itself.
Only those who scale to the likes of Licht should scale to this feat, Not everyone scales to this. This I believe would only be Black Asta, Yuno in his Spirit Dive form, Word Devil, First Wizard King, Julius and likely those Devil guys from the Spade Kingdom. No one else, not even Yami as he sliced the Word Devil with a move that specifically Negates Durability, i.e a Spatial Slash.
I'm not ok with Patry Noelle or Yami scaling, I would call those feats Outliers then, cause so many people shouldn't scale to a character stated to be far stronger
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I've had these same problems in another thread so yeah I obviously agree with Mitch as well. Yami's Dark Magic is considered arcane tier which consists of characters with durability negating abilities so yeah I really don't think Yami scales directly to the top tiers.
Arcane tier? Durability Negating?? Sorry but no, Arcane tier are people with inexplicable power, Arcane mages are either cursed (like William), have an inexplicable magic (like Vanessa's Fate Magic, Yami's Dark Magic and Julius' Time Magic) or draws power from the other World (Secré and Asta). Nothing to do with durability negation

Yami really went all out to begin with. The Earth Queen also said he has the strength to harm demons

Noelle scales because her Valkyrie Dress is a Tier 1. You need to be a Tier 1 character to fight against demons

And yes, Patry scales too. Dark Elf Patry is comparable to Asta and Yuno and was even able to damage them. Not only that but he's also capable of destroying the Word Devil's spells. Finally, he killed Julius after breaking his own seal

So I don't see how the 8 people mentioned that should scale (out of the 130+ character the verse has) should be considered as an outlier
Literally everybody in the arcane tier has durability negating abilities to an extent. William with his World Tree Magic which bypasses durability by simply absorbing their mana. Vanessa's Fate Magic is just hax that makes everything miss. Yami's Dark Magic seems to possess durability bypassing properties to an extent against devils even with its normal attack as the Word Devil couldn't stop it with his Word Magic and had to resort to dodging despite being much stronger. Julius's magic is time it bypasses normal durability. Secre just seals stuff which also bypasses durability. Asta also bypasses durability to an extent with Anti-Magic.

That's why I said they don't scale directly. Tier 1 is the minimum required lvl to fight devils but they don't fully scale. They only somewhat scale. So the most I see them getting is an at most.

Only Dark Elf Patry and Patry using Devil Light Magic scales to Asta and Yuno. Normal Patry doesn't really scale as he was getting wrecked by Julius and was only holding his own because he was holding back.

Only a couple of characters fully scale. Most of the others barely even scale to Asta and Yuno. Yuno even before awakening his true power was trashing Elf Patry and Elf Raia. Most of the characters scale to a much weaker Asta at the beginning of the arc who was comparable to a much weaker Yuno.

So yeah I heavily disagree with everybody scaling to the top tiers for no reason despite being vastly weaker.
You don't get the point.

These 8 characters are the ones that should definitely scale. Hence why I haven't mentioned the others as they will be downgraded

Again I said Unsealed Patry, not Normal Patry. Him getting wrecked by Julius doesn't change the fact that he still stabbed him when he was unsealed

As for the arcane stuff, you are just assuming it is durability negation when it's not.

Absobing someone's mana isn't durability negation, besides, only one of William's spells actually absorbs mana.

Vanessa's Fate Magic isn't durability negation either

Only Dimension Slash is actually negating durability, not Dark Magic

And no, Asta doesn't have durability negation either

Of all of the arcane mages, only Secré and Julius have a magic that bypass durability. Besides, all of this is just assumptions as it wasn't stated that Arcane mages bypass durability
Unsealed Patry stabbing a Julius that was defenseless due to using most of his magic saving the kingdom somehow scales to the top tiers. Yeah no.

Elf Patry is even stronger than Unsealed Patry and he was getting wrecked by Yuno before unlocking his true power against the Word Devil.

Yeah rather than durability negation I probably should've just said hax. As Arcane tier seems to just be the characters with magic that are to some lvl just haxxed and doesn't follow the normal tiers.

Although absorption is in every way a hax that has some lvl of durability negation. And Vanessa's fate magic is definitely hax. Asta's anti-magic is also hax to an extent as he basically just nullifies stuff even from characters stronger than him. Although the nullification is kinda inconsistent.

Yami said that Word Devil can't stop his dark magic with his word soul magic and proves it as Word Devil has to resort to dodging instead of just blocking it or destroying it with his magic like he did against Charla who is comparable to Yami. This shows that even normal dark magic attacks seems to have some kind of effectiveness against devils that causes durability bypassing damage.

So like I said I don't agree with everybody fully scaling to the top tiers.
Are you reading a different series? Yuno never landed an hit on Patry. And him stabbing Julius still counts as AP

Arcane Mages are just people with inexplicable power. Hax has nothing to do with that. If William's mana absorption is the reason he is Arcane, then Charmy would be arcane too, which is not the case. Yuno also uses absorption yet he's not arcane but tier 0

And again, what you said about Dark Magic has nothing to do with Durability Negation at all.

And for the last time: Only 8 characters would scale to it, so get rid of you "everybody"
Yeah just checked he was dodging everything thrown at him by Patry and Raia casually but he never hit them as they managed to dodge. But still stabbing a defenseless person who is vastly stronger than you are while he was busy saving others doesn't mean you scale. Especially not when that very same person was beating you while holding back.

I'm saying dark magic is treated as being more effective against devils which makes it seem like it bypasses durability to an extent against devils. The Word Devil can't even affect his normal dark slash with his magic. Despite being able to affect Charla's magic which is comparable to Yami's.

Other than the top tiers the current profiles literally have all the apostles as well as a few Black Bull members and captains scaling. That's more than just 8. Some of the apostles like Rave were defeated by Post-Possession Luck who is weaker than Elf Luck who was only comparable to early Elf Arc Black Asta before he got the power up to cut Word Devil.
"Other than the top tiers the current profiles literally have all the apostles as well as a few Black Bull members and captains scaling. That's more than just 8. Some of the apostles like Rave were defeated by Post-Possession Luck who is weaker than Elf Luck who was only comparable to early Elf Arc Black Asta before he got the power up to cut Word Devil."

I will repeat myself: We are talking about who should scale after this CRT is finished, hence why I didn't mention the others since they won't scale anymore

Also Post Possession Luck is the one after the Timeskip
If that's what you are talking about than the ones that fully scale are the tier 0s, the devils, the wizard kings and a few others like the elves. So that comes up to

Licht, Lumiere, Word Devil, Julius, Lolopechka, Gaja, Potrof, the other three unknown Spirit Guardian, Post-Timeskip Spirit Dive Yuno, Post-Timeskip Black Asta, Dante, Zenon, Vanica, Gaderois, Foyal, and the other 5 dark disciples following Vanica.

There's probably more tier 0s after the timeskip but we'll see when they actually fight the dark disciples. Pre-Timeskip I'm pretty sure almost nobody scales.

And just making sure we are talking about who scales to normal Licht right? Not Demon Licht who is stronger than pretty much everybody.
Scales above: Dante, Zeno, Vanica

Scales: Word Devil, Tier 0s (Loropechika, Gaja, Potrof, Floga, Yuno, Gaderois, Foyal), Asta, Lumiere, Patry, Julius

Downscales: Yami, Tier 1s (Luck, Noelle)
Those that downscale should just have an at most next to their tier. Or if there's a multiplier that they downscale from use that.

Also what tier do they scale to?
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Noelle, Yami, and Luck definitely do not scale to Low 6-B even as a possibly
Wait hold on isn't this thread talking about how nothing but Demon Licht's strongest attack scales to Low 6-B and because of that we need a new calc to scale them to?
@Epsilon R

Because Noelle, Yami, and Luck are portrayed as significantly weaker than the Word Devil and shouldn't scale to Lumiere who is arguably weaker than Demon Licht who was going to use the Low 6-B attack

I mean, do we even know if the World Devil scales to Demon Licht
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
@Epsilon R
Because Noelle, Yami, and Luck are portrayed as significantly weaker than the Word Devil and shouldn't scale to Lumiere who is arguably weaker than Demon Licht who was going to use the Low 6-B attack

I mean, do we even know if the World Devil scales to Demon Licht
Lumiere isn't arguably weaker. He is straight up weaker than Demon Licht. Demon Licht is literally Licht + magic stones. Lumiere only scales to normal Licht. The anime also shows that Demon Licht fatally wounded Lumiere with just one attack. With Lumiere saying he is not sure if he could stop his strongest attack which is slightly above baseline Low 6-B.
Downscales: Yami, Tier 1s (Luck, Noelle)

For Yami he is able to to harm Word Devil.

For Noelle. She is Tier 1. You need to be tier 1 to fight against Devils

Same for Luck.

Also being "portrayed as weaker" just means they downscales.
Same Lumiere who was able to vaporize Demon Licht.

So Lumiere took several hits from Demon Licht and Demon Licht was also killed by Lumiere, I don't see any reason as to why he should downscale.
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Noelle, Yami, and Luck definitely do not scale to Low 6-B even as a possibly
The Low 6-B itself should not exits. And even if this incalculable feat give such results no one but Demon Licht should scale.
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