Black Clover Licht's problems

[KingOFG]

@Everyone

Before debating whether character A or B should scale, don't forget the main subject of my post.

Licht's theoretical destruction feat is incalculable. Any formula used is inconsistent due to limited information on his abilities, "Low 6-B" is basically a wank.

Even if such a theoretical attack by Licht yielded any results, no one on the verse but himself would scale to it. His durability would also not be scaled since Lumiere, who assumed himself being unable to defend he and the kingdom from this attack was still able to harm him.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

It can be calced, it's the scaling that has issues

 

[Duedate8898]

Thank you

 

[Ryuga21]

I didn't see any argument refuting King in his proposals

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Mitch. The calc can stay since there's nothing inheritily wrong with it, but not so many should scale.

 

[KingOFG]

Same Lumiere who was able to vaporize Demon Licht.
So Lumiere took several hits from Demon Licht and Demon Licht was also killed by Lumiere, I don't see any reason as to why he should downscale.

There is no proof that Demon Licht's normal attacks scale to the attack targeting the kingdom. Lumiere clearly claims that he would not be able to defend himself in front of that. So no, Lumiere don't scale to that, same goes to Licht normal AP and dura.

Demon Licht AP should only be Low 6-B with his strongest spell. His normal AP should be adjusted according to my proposal or simple scale him to weaker characters (He is basically god-tier so yes, this can be done).

 

[KingOFG]

@Antvasima

How many staff people I should contact to this be applied?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Lumière was already weakened when he said he couldn't block it. So him saying he won't block it means nothing

And again, he never clearly said "I won't block it" but just "Can I defend against this?"

 

[KingOFG]

He had no visible damage that weakened him to the point of not scale to Demon Licht tier anymore, the blow was simply above his AP. This logic also makes no sense, since Lumiere himself kills Licht after that. If he were weakened to the point of fall a tier, that would not be possible.

 

[Epsilon_R]

He had no visible damage that weakened him to the point of not scale to Demon Licht tier anymore, the blow was simply above his AP. This logic also makes no sense, since Lumiere himself kills Licht after that. If he were weakened to the point of fall a tier, that would not be possible.

>No visible damage

Sure....

And just because there's no serious damage doesn't mean the attacks didn't weaken him

>This logic also makes no sense, since Lumiere himself kills Licht after that.

AP =/always= Dura. And he didn't kill him physically but with a magic spell. It's your logic that doesn't make any sense

 

[Siegfried10]

Was it even stated that Demon Licht would destroy the WHOLE kingdom?. I just remember Lumiere being worried about the kingdom, but that doesnt mean it would e completely destroyed. Hell, just destroying half of the Kingdom is reason enough to get worried.

And yeah, i also dont agree with so many people scaling to Demon Licht.

 

[Duedate8898]

It wasn't the kingdom but the country that's spoken about, sure the kingdom is the country but it's pretty explicit what Lumiere is speaking of.

 

[KingOFG]

@Epsilon R

He suffered no damage that weakened him to the point that he was no longer comparable to Demon Licht. Just bleeding is no evidence of this. This is not even said or implied at any time, stop taking superficial assumptions in an attempt to desperately justify something that didn't happen.

Lumiere can harm Licht with Light Magic, and could support Licht's attacks physically. If he claims that he would not be able to defend himself against a certain spell that was implied to be more powerful then he doesn't scale to that spell.

 

[Siegfried10]

And was it stated that it would completely destroy the country? You arent answearing the question. The quote i remember from Lumiere is very vague and i dont really agree with it meaning "destroying the whole country". If there is a second and better quote could you post it?.

 

[KingOFG]

Was it even stated that Demon Licht would destroy the WHOLE kingdom?. I just remember Lumiere being worried about the kingdom, but that doesnt mean it would e completely destroyed. Hell, just destroying half of the Kingdom is reason enough to get worried.
And yeah, i also dont agree with so many people scaling to Demon Licht.

Yes, it is never said precisely that the kingdom or country itself would be completely destroyed. The current situation of Black Clover on the wiki is problematic, this is another one of the mistakes I mentioned in the OP.

 

[Siegfried10]

Lumiere been worried for the Kingdom just means that the country would take heavy damage, but that doesnt mean that it would be completely destroyed, thats just speculation. Just having half the kingdom destfoyed is reason enough to get scared (hell, even 1/4 would be reason enough for a good guy like Lumiere). The calc itself could greatly change depending on exactly how much Demon Licht was supposed to destroy, and considering that he would destroy it all just from that vague quote seems like wank. Specially considering the next best feat is like town level.

 

[Ryuga21]

Yes problematic and wanked is the correct word.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Lumiere been worried for the Kingdom just means that the country would take heavy damage, but that doesnt mean that it would be completely destroyed, thats just speculation. Just having half the kingdom destfoyed is reason enough to get scared (hell, even 1/4 would be reason enough for a good guy like Lumiere). The calc itself could greatly change depending on exactly how much Demon Licht was supposed to destroy, and considering that he would destroy it all just from that vague quote seems like wank. Specially considering the next best feat is like town level.

The devil saying "will there be anything left after this?" And Lumiere statement is more than enough to assume the whole Kingdom.

And no the best feat isn't Town level but City level.

Btw, I don't even think this "the best feat so far" thing is worth mentioning when the verse only has 3 usable feats and the City Level one was done by a mid Tier at the beginning of the series and the lowest one was done by a fodder in chapter 2.

 

[Duedate8898]

In the provided quote, we quite literally have two characters pretty much saying the whole country is going to be destroyed. Both Lumiere and the Word Devil should know what they're talking about.

https://imgur.com/skt31SA

The calc itself isn't the problem, it's the scaling for it. So would you stop attacking it?

@Siegfried10 Current next best feat is city level from a mid tier. If you're going to try and argue against the verse at least be updated on where its placed.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Alright, a big question I have is this, was it ever stated or implied the World Devil scales to Demon Licht and the Low 6-B feat

 

[KingOFG]

Demon Licht's power doesn't come from Kotodama Devil so no.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Is that true, because Lumiere sates that he couldn't defend against or even absorb the Country destroying power with his power, or even a magic stone, Demon Licht had to weaken himself to be damaged and killed by Lumiere

And if there's no statement that compares the World Devil to Demon Licht, then...

Major downgrades coming

 

[KingOFG]

Black Clover has its multipliers. Asta and Yuno should reach 7-A with the Black Divider and SoZ if BC's greatest scalable feat is 7-B. Same to Zenon.

 

[ShadowGun45]

really, it was never said that it would destroy the entire country

 

[Epsilon_R]

Alright, a big question I have is this, was it ever stated or implied the World Devil scales to Demon Licht and the Low 6-B feat

They both are Demons

And it's stated that you need to be at least tier 1 to fight against a Demon in general

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

That doesn't prove anything though...

Demon Licht could be far above the World Devil for all we know, you can't scale all Demons together in power, isn't the Dark Triad said to be far above the World Devil

Both being Demons doesn't make them comparable, I need statements they are

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I agree with Mitch.

 

[Rocker1189]

I agree with Mitch. I have had severe issues with the statement and how the scaling has been working in this verse for a long time. The fact that somehow everyone is scaling to Demon Licht's strongest attack is not ok. This is also the same with the Fana scaling on the lower end btw.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that the first post seems to make sense. How should the statistics be changed and which character profiles here would be affected?

 

[Ah_Gou]

Agree with the original post and what Aubin said.

 

[KingOFG]

I also think that the first post seems to make sense. How should the statistics be changed and which character profiles here would be affected?

So, all characters listed as Low 6-B go back to 7-B, except for Licht in demonic form, which would be Low 6-B with his strongest spell. Due to Licht multipliers, he would reach 7-A (130MT), as well as Asta (with Black Divider), and Yuno (with Spirit of Zephyr).

 

[AstralKing7]

Demon Licht was being controlled by Word Devil. He was using the magic of Word Devil.

 

[Peter1129]

Demon Licht wasn't controlled by the Word Devil. In the official translation and the anime it's literally stated that to prevent himself from being taken over by the Word Devil he used the magic stones to pull even more negative magic to become a Demon. Demon Licht is literally Licht amped by negative magic from Word Devil + even more negative magic from the Magic stones.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the explanation.

@Mitch

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well, I think we should see if there are any other feats we can calc for the Word Devil and others

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That makes sense.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

They don't have any other feats of that caliber as far as I'm aware. Just some statement in a data book about salamander drying up sea's although it isn't backed by anything.

 

[Epsilon_R]

So, all the arguments I saw in favour of the downgrade are the following:

• It isn't stated that the kingdom would be destroyed
• Too many characters scales
• The best feat is only City level
• Lumiere and WD shouldn't scale
  • Lumiere
    • Lumiere said he couldn't block it
    • Licht thinned his mana so Lumiere could kill him
  • WD
    • Both being demons doesn't mean they are comparable. He could be weaker

It isn't stated that the kingdom would be destroyed
Like Duedate8898 said, we quite literally have two characters pretty much saying the whole country is going to be destroyed. Both Lumiere who is referring to the country (and not the capital, which he could have referred to since Licht was aiming the capital. But he used Country instead), and the Word Devil who is saying there won't be anything left. They should know what they are talking about.

Too many characters scales
I agree. Only characters that are tier 0 that scale.

The best feat is only City level
Is this "the best feat so far" thing worth mentioning when the verse only has 2 usable feats out side of this one (one was done by a mid Tier at the beginning of the series and the lowest one was done by a fodder in chapter 2)?

Lumiere said he couldn't block it
First, he is questioning himself, not outright saying he can't or won't block it. Also, "Block"...

You know that "block" an attack has several meanings, right?

• "Block" as in tanking the attack (Which is most likely what you guys think)
• "Block" as in prevent the attack from passing (Seeing how large the attack is, even if he tanks it, it is too big to block it)

So we don't know which "block" Lumiere was referring to. But let's say he was referring to tanking the attack, he already took several damages and was in a critical conditio when he said that.

Licht thinned his mana so Lumiere could kill him
Huge NO! Thinning your Mana doesn't makes you less durable unless proven otherwise.

Both Word Devil and Demon Licht being demons doesn't mean they are comparable. He could be weaker
Well, there's no reason to assume he is that much weaker either so saying he could be weaker isn't an argument.

Word Devil also says that if he had a body, Lumiere's attacks wouldn't have damaged him. That means 2 things:

1. If anything, the Word Devil is as much if not more durable than Demon Licht

2. Lumiere attacks actually damaged Licht (which is obvious since Licht knew Lumiere could kill him. Not only that but there's no reason to assume that Demon Licht's durability is not relatively close, if not equal to his AP)

Conclusion
Word Devil and Lumiere should still scale. Everyone else that is not a Tier 0 mage gets back to 7-B. The ones that stay Low 6-B (or downscale from it, whatever) are the following:

• Asta
• Dark Elf Patry
• Julius?
• Noelle
• Yami
• Yuno
• Zeno

Which makes 7 characters (out of the 35 in the wiki, and out of the 130+ of the verse) Finally, Asta's Black Divider and Licht's Conquering Eon will change to "higher"

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, so Base Asta scales to '"'13.6 Megatons" and Black Asta scales far higher than that

Licht overpowered the combined might of both Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno, so Licht should scale 2x them and be "At least 27.2 Megatons, likely higher"

The power of Licht's strongest attack is 9x to 11x his base power, so that makes his power "244.8 Megatons to 299.2 Megatons"

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Quick question as I've been out of the loop for a lot of the manga verses I follow (KnY, FT and BC) and so I forget our scaling stuffs. So I forget if these Multipliers were accepted or not. Just clarification for me so I can get caught up.