Bill Cipher: It's finally time for Tier 1

[StrymULTRA]

Gurren Lagann, isn't it because in the higher dimension it's just records?

No.

Edit: Gurren Lagann is indeed High 1-C off having the 10 and 11th dimensions as being branes, other than several statements of infinite universe/multiverse, and Hyperdimension Neptunia is "possibly" 1-C due to it having 9 Dimensional coordinates and infinite statements as well. I think that a "Low 1-C, possibly 1-B" for Bill should definitely be a thing at minimum given how the site handles this stuff.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Somebody gotta make Shacktron profile btw, I have a render laying around

Pretty good render btw

Tbh a blog for the Nightmare Realm should also be made, in order to avoid making a word-salad in the AP section of Bill.

I was thinking on that, one way or another Bill´s AP section will be really big

But a cosmology blog would be extremely helpful

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pretty good render btw

Too lazy for a Shacktron profile, maybe u or someone else can do it instead lol?

But a cosmology blog would be extremely helpful

Yah, would be nice.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Too lazy for a Shacktron profile, maybe u or someone else can do it instead lol?

I definitely can´t, lol, my computer would die if i even tried

Yah, would be nice.

It would also be surprisingly simple, we would just need small sections about the multiverse and the mindscape, what really f#cks everything is how many information we would have to give about the NR, the portal and the relationship between Ford and Bill

Per now, a note on Bill´s profile would suffice what we are momentarily searching for

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To be fair, our dimensional tiering standards have been going back and forth as of late. And while years back, it was to be written to have more scrutiny. But ever since the Spatio-Temporal dimension transcendence got separated from the R>F, with the latter accepted as getting rewritten as having even a single layer of that being superior to Meta-Infinity layers of the former, there actually is more simplistic by comparison. There was for long a statement that temporal dimensions are quantitatively superior by default. I even heard rumors that the "Infinite snap shot" statements are simply doubling down on how reaching Low 2-C and above is actually something easier to reach than what we used to treat it. Our current standards for the baseline of Low 2-C is destroying a body of space that is 3-A sized in terms of 3-D space while also containing a temporal dimension, but I heard there may be plans to remove the former and even destroying a planet sized timeline (Such as DB's RoSaT) may default to Low 2-C.

And by extension, having 2 or more temporal dimensions behaves like even a single snapshot from the 2nd temporal dimension contains uncountable infinite number of snapshots from the 1st temporal dimension. Which in turn, makes even having a 2nd temporal dimension default to Low 1-C. And then it's and then some from there. While I'm unsure exactly what's going to happen, and won't fully push until I have it. But it sounds like I will see Tier 1 Bill pretty much being a strong likelihood from there.

 

[StrymULTRA]

To be fair, our dimensional tiering standards have been going back and forth as of late. And while years back, it was to be written to have more scrutiny. But ever since the Spatio-Temporal dimension transcendence got separated from the R>F, with the latter accepted as getting rewritten as having even a single layer of that being superior to Meta-Infinity layers of the former, there actually is more simplistic by comparison. There was for long a statement that temporal dimensions are quantitatively superior by default. I even heard rumors that the "Infinite snap shot" statements are simply doubling down on how reaching Low 2-C and above is actually something easier to reach than what we used to treat it. Our current standards for the baseline of Low 2-C is destroying a body of space that is 3-A sized in terms of 3-D space while also containing a temporal dimension, but I heard there may be plans to remove the former and even destroying a planet sized timeline (Such as DB's RoSaT) may default to Low 2-C.

And by extension, having 2 or more temporal dimensions behaves like even a single snapshot from the 2nd temporal dimension contains uncountable infinite number of snapshots from the 1st temporal dimension. Which in turn, makes even having a 2nd temporal dimension default to Low 1-C. And then it's and then some from there. While I'm unsure exactly what's going to happen, and won't fully push until I have it. But it sounds like I will see Tier 1 Bill pretty much being a strong likelihood from there.

I do not understand the point of this, how are temporal dimensions relevant in this case? Unless you talk about the point about it being infinite-sized + 12-Dimensional, so it'd be 1-B anyway coz of the other dimensions repeating themselves for uncountable infinite times in the "new" 12-D axis?

 

[Qawsedf234]

However, the Nightmare Realm would still be 1-B in size, as not only it can hold within itself all these dimensions, it's also called as infinite itself as well, which would still make it qualify (reason why TTGL is such tier after all), right?

No, TTGL is High 1-C because all 10 to 11 Dimensions are considered bulk spaces. Not just using standard M-Theory cosmology. If they operated under the standard model they would also only be 2-A or Low 1-C because only the 4th Dimension would be infinite and the others would be compressed strings of finite length.

Hyperdimension Neptunia is "possibly" 1-C due to it having 9 Dimensional coordinates and infinite statements as well. I think that a "Low 1-C, possibly 1-B" for Bill should definitely be a thing at minimum given how the site handles this stuff.

Exactly, Neptunia has coordinate spaces. As in what dimensional tiering is based off of. Cipher doesn't have evidence for that.

Edit 2: Noticed that Nasuverse characters like BB are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C off similar arguments as well.

Can't comment on Nasuverse, but if the higher universes are shown to be higher spatially I could see the rating. I'm not seeing more evidence than Low 1-C here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, TTGL is High 1-C because all 10 to 11 Dimensions are considered bulk spaces. Not just using standard M-Theory cosmology. If they operated under the standard model they would also only be 2-A or Low 1-C because only the 4th Dimension would be infinite and the others would be compressed strings of finite length.

But the Nightmare Realm itself is the Bulk space here, and the 11th Dimension is under said Bulk space, given that's explicitly part of the Multiverse that Stanford has traveled in.

Exactly, Neptunia has coordinate spaces. As in what dimensional tiering is based off of. Cipher doesn't have evidence for that.

But the aliens are called "Pan-Dimensional", which means pertaining to all dimensions (thus also spatial ones), and because of this they have a bad sense of direction, because of them existing in different degrees of dimensionality at once. Directions and spatial axes are kinda synonymous with each other after all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But the Nightmare Realm itself is the Bulk space here, and the 11th Dimension is under said Bulk space, given that's explicitly part of the Multiverse that Stanford has traveled in.

You're missing the difference. GL has every dimension be a Brane membrane/bulk space. Which means that each of them are embedded in that larger space. A standard bulk space under M-theory is a 4th Dimensional construct with string dimensional of finite size that loops around them at higher dimensional angles like in this image. Just mentioning bulk space isn't enough for High 1-C or 1-B, you'd have to show that every dimension acts as a brane layer or that every higher dimension is infinite in size by embedding the other. I'm not seeing either here.

But the aliens are called "Pan-Dimensional", which means pertaining to all dimensions (thus also spatial ones),

Pan-Dimensional doesn't mean anything, as String Dimensions do operate at higher levels and they're just finite in size. Its why being 11th Dimensional isn't a High 1-C showing. You have to affect something is significant size, which is why Neptunia has that rating because the cosmology they effect under the coordinate space assumption qualifies for 1-C.

I think Low 1-C is fine, I don't see any higher rating here. It lacks more fundamental elements required for it in my view.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You're missing the difference. GL has every dimension be a Brane membrane/bulk space. Which means that each of them are embedded in that larger space. A standard bulk space under M-theory is a 4th Dimensional construct with string dimensional of finite size that loops around them at higher dimensional angles like in this image. Just mentioning bulk space isn't enough for High 1-C or 1-B, you'd have to show that every dimension acts as a brane layer or that every higher dimension is infinite in size by embedding the other. I'm not seeing either here.

Pan-Dimensional doesn't mean anything, as String Dimensions do operate at higher levels and they're just finite in size. Its why being 11th Dimensional isn't a High 1-C showing. You have to affect something is significant size, which is why Neptunia has that rating because the cosmology they effect under the coordinate space assumption qualifies for 1-C.

I think Low 1-C is fine, I don't see any higher rating here. It lacks more fundamental elements required for it in my view.

I absolutely know why the Bulk in these cases is High 1-C, I just think it can potentially apply to also Gravity Falls due to how dimensions are described in the verse. Stanford and Bill both mentioned how being 2D means being flat due to not having any width (hence infinitely thinner), being outside the 4th dimension allows one to see all the 4D space-times as if it's a river where you can see all the universes and its events as if they're strips of films, other than the Nightmare Realm itself being described as infinite other than embedding all the dimensions within itself due to working as the lawless space between dimensions.

I know it's not a hard evidence for it to apply to also the 11D stuff, but given how Gravity Falls is very clear about generally describing dimensions as being infinite compared to the lower one, I can see this also applying to the 11D.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pan-Dimensional doesn't mean anything, as String Dimensions do operate at higher levels and they're just finite in size. Its why being 11th Dimensional isn't a High 1-C showing. You have to affect something is significant size, which is why Neptunia has that rating because the cosmology they effect under the coordinate space assumption qualifies for 1-C.

Wait, are you referencing this?

In spite of this progress, the relationship between strings and five-dimensional branes remained conjectural because theorists were unable to quantize the branes. Starting in 1991, a team of researchers including Michael Duff, Ramzi Khuri, Jianxin Lu, and Ruben Minasian considered a special compactification of string theory in which four of the ten dimensions curl up. If one considers a five-dimensional brane wrapped around these extra dimensions, then the brane looks just like a one-dimensional string. In this way, the conjectured relationship between strings and branes was reduced to a relationship between strings and strings, and the latter could be tested using already established theoretical techniques.[29]

 

[TheShape03]

If those dimensions are still below the NR, and the NR is infinite compared to those 11 Dimensions, doesn't that mean that the NR is an 11-dimensional space whose axes extend to infinity?

I could be wrong, but iirc Ben 10 received 1-B for statements of 26D and a declaration that such dimensions extend to infinity.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If those dimensions are still below the NR, and the NR is infinite compared to those 11 Dimensions, doesn't that mean that the NR is an 11-dimensional space whose axes extend to infinity?

I could be wrong, but iirc Ben 10 received 1-B for statements of 26D and a declaration that such dimensions extend to infinity.

Ben 10 is 1-B because all those dimensional axes extend to infinity.

In fact, directions and dimensions are linked to each other:

• 1D: Left, Right
• 2D: Left, Right, Up, Down
• 3D: Left, Right, Up, Down, Above, Under

And so on. Every dimension adds 2 new directions where one can go, due to each adding a new spatial axis from where one can go back and forth in each. Ben 10 is such because every single of the directions added from the spatial axes extends to infinity here, thus confirming 1-B for it.

I'd definitely argue that Gravity Falls also uses this, but I am becoming a biiit unsure now, after searching a bit the M-Theory.

 

[Eseseso]

I think "Low 1-C, possibly 1-B" is the best option.

Bill Cipher being equal to the strongest DC characters is crazy.

 

[TheShape03]

Ben 10 is 1-B because all those dimensional axes extend to infinity.

In fact, directions and dimensions are linked to each other:

• 1D: Left, Right
• 2D: Left, Right, Up, Down
• 3D: Left, Right, Up, Down, Above, Under

And so on. Every dimension adds 2 new directions where one can go, due to each adding a new spatial axis from where one can go back and forth in each. Ben 10 is such because every single of the directions added from the spatial axes extends to infinity here, thus confirming 1-B for it.

I'd definitely argue that Gravity Falls also uses this, but I am becoming a biiit unsure now, after searching a bit the M-Theory.

Well, we know that they are talking about dimensions in that sense, that is why the Aliens that came from an 11D dimension had a horrible sense of direction, they are used to inhabiting a space with more directions, therefore they would not handle adequately in a space with fewer directions to move to. NR is larger than those 11D spaces to an infinite point, which means that such axes would have to extend to infinity or NR could not be infinitely larger. For example, a High 3-A space would be infinite in all possible directions. So, I don't understand why NR doesn't qualify for High 1-C or 1-B.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Well, we know that they are talking about dimensions in that sense, that is why the Aliens that came from an 11D dimension had a horrible sense of direction, they are used to inhabiting a space with more directions, therefore they would not handle adequately in a space with fewer directions to move to. NR is larger than those 11D spaces to an infinite point, which means that such axes would have to extend to infinity or NR could not be infinitely larger. For example, a High 3-A space would be infinite in all possible directions. So, I don't understand why NR doesn't qualify for High 1-C or 1-B.

iirc, that was also the reasoning for 1-B Ben 10 in relation to the 26 dimensions and "The Omniversal force"

 

[StrymULTRA]

For example, a High 3-A space would be infinite in all possible directions.

You can be High 3-A even if you destroy a thing that has infinite length but finite height and width.

NR is larger than those 11D spaces to an infinite point, which means that such axes would have to extend to infinity or NR could not be infinitely larger.

Yeah, my point is this tbh.

 

[TheShape03]

Btw, in GF, the lower dimensions are perceived as fiction. For example, Rumble is two-dimensional and was perceived as fictional by the characters in the series. Then we have that time where the characters got into a comic and became two-dimensional beings.

This could also prove the 11 dimensions work for Tier 1 because of that whole R>F thing. No?

 

[Hellformer]

I think "Low 1-C, possibly 1-B" is the best option.

Bill Cipher being equal to the strongest DC characters is crazy.

A dorito soloing most of DC is crazy

 

[StrymULTRA]

Btw, in GF, the lower dimensions are perceived as fiction. For example, Rumble is two-dimensional and was perceived as fictional by the characters in the series. Then we have that time where the characters got into a comic and became two-dimensional beings.

This could also prove the 11 dimensions work for Tier 1 because of that whole R>F thing. No?

The R>F would be 1-A off that dumb reason.

But yeah, you're correct on that also.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Btw, in GF, the lower dimensions are perceived as fiction. For example, Rumble is two-dimensional and was perceived as fictional by the characters in the series. Then we have that time where the characters got into a comic and became two-dimensional beings.

This could also prove the 11 dimensions work for Tier 1 because of that whole R>F thing. No?

The R>F would be 1-A off that dumb reason.

But yeah, you're correct on that also.

1-A Dipper Pines becoming the new Gravity Falls scaling be like:

 

[Qawsedf234]

The R>F would be 1-A off that dumb reason.

1-A requires a discussion and unrealness for R>F. Them being lower dimensional would automatically exclude it from 1-A, since they're a foundation for the higher dimension rather than a separate thing entirely.

 

[StrymULTRA]

1-A requires a discussion and unrealness for R>F. Them being lower dimensional would automatically exclude it from 1-A, since they're a foundation for the higher dimension rather than a separate thing entirely.

I was literally joking there lol. U really thought I was arguing for 1-A GF?

 

[Qawsedf234]

U really thought I was arguing for 1-A GF?

You, no. But others don't get that R>F means something different now and I wanted to clarify.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You, no. But others don't get that R>F means something different now and I wanted to clarify.

Anyway, anything about the above points?

I absolutely know why the Bulk in these cases is High 1-C, I just think it can potentially apply to also Gravity Falls due to how dimensions are described in the verse. Stanford and Bill both mentioned how being 2D means being flat due to not having any width (hence infinitely thinner), being outside the 4th dimension allows one to see all the 4D space-times as if it's a river where you can see all the universes and its events as if they're strips of films, other than the Nightmare Realm itself being described as infinite other than embedding all the dimensions within itself due to working as the lawless space between dimensions.

I know it's not a hard evidence for it to apply to also the 11D stuff, but given how Gravity Falls is very clear about generally describing dimensions as being infinite compared to the lower one, I can see this also applying to the 11D.

Well, we know that they are talking about dimensions in that sense, that is why the Aliens that came from an 11D dimension had a horrible sense of direction, they are used to inhabiting a space with more directions, therefore they would not handle adequately in a space with fewer directions to move to. NR is larger than those 11D spaces to an infinite point, which means that such axes would have to extend to infinity or NR could not be infinitely larger. For example, a High 3-A space would be infinite in all possible directions. So, I don't understand why NR doesn't qualify for High 1-C or 1-B.

Btw, in GF, the lower dimensions are perceived as fiction. For example, Rumble is two-dimensional and was perceived as fictional by the characters in the series. Then we have that time where the characters got into a comic and became two-dimensional beings.

This could also prove the 11 dimensions work for Tier 1 because of that whole R>F thing. No?

I think they do set a foundation for at least a "possibly 1-B" imo.

 

[Deagonx]

Calculus in higher dimensions are about change rates in complex coordinate spaces. Afaik it would have to be geometric in principle for that sentence to make logical sense.

I'm not opposed to the idea that it's geometric, but the context is really fuzzy. I don't think it necessarily implies the NR itself is 5-D or tells us enough about the nature of the dimensions such that we could scale it to someone in the series necessarily.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Deagonx, no offense, but so far all of your refutes can be literally summarized with "I don't think it's enough" without elaborating on why.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not sure what you mean. What kind of elaboration could be provided beyond what I've said, with regard to a scan that says very little? My stance is pretty straightforward. The argument in favor of the upgrade is that the reference to Fifth Dimensional Calculus can be inferred to mean that the Nightmare Realm or some other scalable region has five infinitely sized spatial dimensions. The scan doesn't say that, though, and I don't see why we'd make such an inference.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not opposed to the idea that it's geometric, but the context is really fuzzy

I mean, there really doesn't need to be any context for the math. In order for the sentence to make logical sense it has to deal with higher coordinate spaces, which is what that branch of math was created to mathematically define.

The only thing it doesn't tell you is if the realm is significant in size or not, but the statement alone would qualify as a 5D one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The arguments in favor are not just it needing a portal that needs a 5D calculus to be accessed, it also has:

• Higher plane statement
• It being a "dimension between dimensions", with the latter being stated to be infinite in amount twice
• It being straight up called endless
• It having non-euclidian objects that cannot exist in 3D space

I don't remotely understand how can someone say that's not Low 1-C with all of these tbh.

 

[Deagonx]

The only thing it doesn't tell you is if the realm is significant in size or not, but the statement alone would qualify as a 5D one.

Given that he's talking about college courses he took, I am not sure it's even a given that the dimensions necessarily refer to the nightmare realm rather than something in their native dimension. If he studied this in college for three semesters and could've taken more classes, and if the weirdness dimension is a totally new unmapped frontier, I can't imagine he was learning about the Nightmare Realm or some otherworldly dimension. It seems more likely based on context that whatever these 5 Dimensions are, it has to do with the normal realm

But indeed if we can't conclude they are universal in size then it's moot for scaling regardless which is sort of what I'm getting at

 

[Deagonx]

The arguments in favor are not just it needing a portal that needs a 5D calculus to be accessed, it also has:

• Higher plane statement
• It being a "dimension between dimensions", with the latter being stated to be infinite in amount twice
• It being straight up called endless
• It having non-euclidian objects that cannot exist in 3D space

I don't remotely understand how can someone say that's not Low 1-C with all of these tbh.

You hurt your own argument with the fluff. Two out of the four additional pieces of info are the same (that it's infinite in size) and have nothing to do with being higher dimensional. The higher plane statement isn't helpful.

So really we have one more piece of info which is an illustration of common optical illusions and the assumption that in this case they represent genuine geometric objects which necessitate more spatial dimensions. They could also just be optical illusions.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Given that he's talking about college courses he took, I am not sure it's even a given that the dimensions necessarily refer to the nightmare realm rather than something in their native dimension. If he studied this in college for three semesters and could've taken more classes, and if the weirdness dimension is a totally new unmapped frontier, I can't imagine he was learning about the Nightmare Realm or some otherworldly dimension. It seems more likely based on context that whatever these 5 Dimensions are, it has to do with the normal realm

The point there is that machine used to make portals into the realm requires knowledge on 5th Dimensional Calculus, which would be finding the rate of continuous change while in a 5th Dimensional space (which in turn relies on a coordinate point method to work). The statement is fifth dimensional and I don't think you can really take it in another way.

The knock against it is if the Nightmare Realm is big enough to qualify for Low 1-C, but the statement is a valid one in my view.

 

[Deagonx]

The point there is that machine used to make portals into the realm requires knowledge on 5th Dimensional Calculus, which would be finding the rate of continuous change while in a 5th Dimensional space (which in turn relies on a coordinate point method to work). The statement is fifth dimensional and I don't think you can really take it in another way.

The knock against it is if the Nightmare Realm is big enough to qualify for Low 1-C, but the statement is a valid one in my view.

I think we're speaking parallel to each other here. I agree with what you're saying.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Two out of the four additional pieces of info are the same (that it's infinite in size)

The infinite universes that it holds isn't the same as the place itself being infinite tho.

The higher plane statement isn't helpful.

Lmao ok.

They could also just be optical illusions.

Dude is literally running on one of these, how do you physically run on an illusion.

Not that the NR has stuff for it having illusions anyway.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The point there is that machine used to make portals into the realm requires knowledge on 5th Dimensional Calculus, which would be finding the rate of continuous change while in a 5th Dimensional space (which in turn relies on a coordinate point method to work). The statement is fifth dimensional and I don't think you can really take it in another way.

The knock against it is if the Nightmare Realm is big enough to qualify for Low 1-C, but the statement is a valid one in my view.

Anyway, anything about the above points?

Bro help.

 

[Deagonx]

The infinite universes that it holds isn't the same as the place itself being infinite tho.

I haven't seen any evidence that the Nightmare Realm contains other dimensions. Only that it is between other dimensions and acts as a gateway.

Lmao ok.

This confirms what I'm saying:

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

Being called a "higher plane" is irrelevant. If you can prove that the plane has Qualitiative Superiority, that's fine. But in that case it's QS whether or not it's called a "higher plane" because the superiority has been proven. This is pretty clear, but if you're going to be rude about it, I'm just not going to engage further.

 

[Hellformer]

@StrymULTRA How about waiting for other admins to have a look at this? Because this convo looks pretty much equivalent to argument from ignorance and circular reasoning.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I haven't seen any evidence that the Nightmare Realm contains other dimensions. Only that it is between other dimensions and acts as a gateway.

Other than the "dimension between dimensions" statement and other ones, we have that universes are decipted as bubbles (as also shown clearly here) and that the Mab-3l dimension is also physically inside the NR (1, 2).

Being called a "higher plane" is irrelevant. If you can prove that the plane has Qualitiative Superiority, that's fine. But in that case it's QS whether or not it's called a "higher plane" because the superiority has been proven. This is pretty clear, but if you're going to be rude about it, I'm just not going to engage further.

What I meant is that the Higher Plane is just an additional evidence to all of this, other than it being reffered as being a Bulk-Space.

@StrymULTRA How about waiting for other admins to have a look at this. Because this convo looks pretty much equivalent to argument from ignorance and circular reasoning.

Yeah it's getting tiring. Tried to call others but they don't answer.

Edit: Noticed that @Deagonx already conceded on the above, so I suppose it can end here at least. Need more opinions on High 1-C though.

 

[Deagonx]

Edit: Noticed that @Deagonx already conceded on the above, so I suppose it can end here at least. Need more opinions on High 1-C though.

What did I concede on and when?