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Bill Cipher: It's finally time for Tier 1

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TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Even if we ignore everything related to Low 1-C and higher, why 2-A should not be solidified due to the events in comics?

I’ll wait for StrymULTRA’s respond though.
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You mean the Don't Dimension it comic? I still don't think any of the events from the comic are actually due to the events of Weirdmageddon, aside from the original portal that took Mabel to the Nightmare Realm. The NR is constantly shown to have portals/wormholes to other realities already, as evidenced by Ford apparently being able to walk from universe to universe on his own and swimming... into a wormhole. I need to find the scan, but that's literally how he traversed the multiverse during his time there. (Why the hell couldn't Bill go through any of these?)

Seems familiar to this scene, huh?

The other Mabels in the Mabel Dimension never actually say how they got there either. Like, not once. The closest thing we get to an explanation is the evil Mabel being chased from her reality due to her own actions, which had a shocking lack of connection to Weirdmaggeddon.
 
The "existing in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" appears to more naturally refer to universes IMO. Especially as he is describing what creatures have that skeleton shape, which would appear to be a relatively normal skeleton. In absence of further context I don't think it's strong enough evidence to support 11-D scaling.
 
Deagonx said:
The "existing in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" appears to more naturally refer to universes IMO. Especially as he is describing what creatures have that skeleton shape, which would appear to be a relatively normal skeleton. In absence of further context I don't think it's strong enough evidence to support 11-D scaling.
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How about the Low 1-C stuff?
 
Eseseso said:
How about the Low 1-C stuff?
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I don't love the way the information is presented.

Being called a "higher plane" isn't helpful, and I am not as persuaded about the optical illusions being evidence of higher spatial dimensions. The "Fifth-Dimensional Calculus" reference with regard to building the portal device seems better but it's so vague that it's hard to consider it good enough information for qualitative superiority.

The "bulk-space" scans are just some wikipedia pages and a set of journal entries that don't appear to use the word "bulk" at all. The reference to the second dimension just seems to be suggesting that Bill is from a 2-dimensional realm, and the 4th-dimension scans are just normal time stuff.

I am not sure what the evidence is of the Nightmare Realm containing infinite universes, because the cipher substitution scan doesn't say that.
 
Deagonx said:
The "existing in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" appears to more naturally refer to universes IMO. Especially as he is describing what creatures have that skeleton shape, which would appear to be a relatively normal skeleton. In absence of further context I don't think it's strong enough evidence to support 11-D scaling.
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The fact is that these aliens are the only one fitting this shape. Also Ford notes that “ship this big can…” and as we all know dimensionality is naturally bonded to the size. I have no clue how he could have described the ship “big” based on the fact that it is omnipresent between 7 to 11 universes.
 
Deagonx said:
The "bulk-space" scans are just some wikipedia pages and a set of journal entries that don't appear to use the word "bulk" at all. The reference to the second dimension just seems to be suggesting that Bill is from a 2-dimensional realm, and the 4th-dimension scans are just normal time stuff.
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Pretty sure it's because the OP is arguing that weirdness dimension is visually presented as a bulk space here

nXVpmL9.png
 
PonePoster said:
The 11D stuff's just never had enough evidence to actually work. I still don't really see why Bill or Ford would scale to the Nightmare Realm itself due to some of the latter's inventions affecting parts of it. As far as I can see, Ford saying that the portal shook the NR... is just hyperbole.

Yes, taking a narrator's word at face value is fine, but the journals are explicitly from Ford's perspective. Despite his intelligence, he's still only a human. He does not know how far the shaking would reach, since he is not literally omniscient. He doesn't know what's going on a hundred miles away, nor a hundred million light years, lol. That one piece of evidence isn't enough to scale the portal to the NR because he literally does not have the capability to know it affected the entire NR at once.
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Every 2-A verse should be downgraded due to humans being unable to perceive infinity thus it's hyperbole. Peak logic right here.
PonePoster said:
Bill cannot stop the Nightmare Realm from self destructing. That entire plane is destined to be destroyed with or without him, and the whole reason he wants to go to other realities is to escape it. It just doesn't make any sense for Bill to scale to the NR anyways, since he explicitly cannot affect it in its entirety. He isn't really even affecting it at all, since the same page heavily implies the reason that Gravity Falls' universe is in danger is solely because of the NR's lack of physics and instability flooding our reality, rather than any AP from Bill's end.
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It's more downscaling off Bill still affecting it a bit. Dealing chip damage to a Tier 1 being is still Tier 1 after all.

PonePoster said:
You mean the Don't Dimension it comic? I still don't think any of the events from the comic are actually due to the events of Weirdmageddon, aside from the original portal that took Mabel to the Nightmare Realm. The NR is constantly shown to have portals/wormholes to other realities already, as evidenced by Ford apparently being able to walk from universe to universe on his own and swimming... into a wormhole. I need to find the scan, but that's literally how he traversed the multiverse during his time there. (Why the hell couldn't Bill go through any of these?)

Seems familiar to this scene, huh?

The other Mabels in the Mabel Dimension never actually say how they got there either. Like, not once. The closest thing we get to an explanation is the evil Mabel being chased from her reality due to her own actions, which had a shocking lack of connection to Weirdmaggeddon.
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Bill could do literally the same, he just couldn't without a physical body due to his 2D nature.
Deagonx said:
The "existing in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" appears to more naturally refer to universes IMO. Especially as he is describing what creatures have that skeleton shape, which would appear to be a relatively normal skeleton. In absence of further context I don't think it's strong enough evidence to support 11-D scaling.
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I've already refuted that. The creatures are described as being pan-dimensional, meaning that they pertain to all dimensions of reality. It wouldn't make sense to just say that they're only universes when I've made a whole jargon about the perception thing in OP.
Deagonx said:
Being called a "higher plane" isn't helpful
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The FAQ page disagrees with you.
Deagonx said:
am not as persuaded about the optical illusions being evidence of higher spatial dimensions
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Argument from incredulity.
Deagonx said:
The "bulk-space" scans are just some wikipedia pages and a set of journal entries that don't appear to use the word "bulk" at all.
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It's from visual showing of the NR in the journal.
Deagonx said:
I am not sure what the evidence is of the Nightmare Realm containing infinite universes, because the cipher substitution scan doesn't say that.
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It's all in Bill's profile for his 2-A reasoning.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The same situation would apply. It would be 4D + 7D Strings encompassed in a 5D bulk.
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Problem: they're described as being Pan-dimensional beings, which would mean that they pertain to all dimensions of reality. Wouldn't this mean that they're related to also spatial dimensions, due to Ford using the term to describe both universes and spatial axes?
 
StrymULTRA said:
The Brane Cosmology has every dimension as being infinitely thin strings that are separated from the higher dimension, thus allowing for Tier 1 to be valid here.

Same reason why Gurren Lagann is High 1-C and Touhou should also be.
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I love when some kind of logic can work for XXX verse but doesn't work for the verse I'm arguing for. I mean you get it right?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Every 2-A verse should be downgraded due to humans being unable to perceive infinity thus it's hyperbole. Peak logic right here.
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This entire piece of evidence is "peak logic". The same way Ford can't see invisible things, he can't know the entire infinite Nightmare Realm is being affected in the same way as something he's literally a few steps away from. He's not a Supreme Kai that can just squint and suddenly see far enough to perceive that every edge of an infinite plane is being shaken lol. Doesn't matter how smart he is, the fact is that it's more than likely hyperbole, because the book is literally written by someone in-verse that doesn't have the same kind of omniscience as a narrator.
 
PonePoster said:
This entire piece of evidence is "peak logic". The same way Ford can't see invisible things, he can't know the entire infinite Nightmare Realm is being affected in the same way as something he's literally a few steps away from. He's not a Supreme Kai that can just squint and suddenly see far enough to perceive that every edge of an infinite plane is being shaken lol. Doesn't matter how smart he is, the fact is that it's more than likely hyperbole, because the book is literally written by someone in-verse that doesn't have the same kind of omniscience as a narrator.
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You have to prove it's hyperbole, not the other way around.

Given that Ford is the same man who built the portal for the NR, has understanding of dimensions in general too, the Portal shaking the NR isn't that much of a reach. Not to mention that this isn't even the first time of verses getting infinite cosmologies off mere human statements, Madoka Magica is an example.
 
Hellformer said:
I love when some kind of logic can work for XXX verse but doesn't work for the verse I'm arguing for. I mean you get it right?
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Tbh for Touhou it was argued like few times, threads either died or just delayed due to the incoming revisions.

Wonder if this thread will have some effects on said future revisions tho lol.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I technically can see this, to be fair.

Even if Bill's AP isn't accepted to scale to the NR (thus being 2-A or High 1-C), his hax should still be 5D/12D due to his abilities still affecting it.
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But he does have feats/statements for scaling to null realm right? Assuming that to be the case, his AP should also be 5-D/12-D
 
Hellformer said:
But he does have feats/statements for scaling to null realm right? Assuming that to be the case, his AP should also be 5-D/12-D
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The main thing is the Portal that Ford made which has shaken the whole Nightmare Realm, which is something that he needed Bill's help to create.

Ford also made something that could contain the Rift, but it only partially uses the NR to flood the Multiverse and then destroy it, rather than destroying the NR as well, so heeeh.

Plus I re-read the scan about the "power source not strong enough to kill Bill", and it says only about not finding an element with enough energy to blast beings in nonexistence, not that "not even something strong as the portal can kill Bill" (and mind you that he didn't use the portal in years after that event).

So yeah, I do not think that the "shaking" stuff applies to Bill in the 1st place. I changed my mind about the downscaling thing.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The main thing is the Portal that Ford made which has shaken the whole Nightmare Realm, which is something that he needed Bill's help to create.

Ford also made something that could contain the Rift, but it only partially uses the NR to flood the Multiverse and then destroy it, rather than destroying the NR as well, so heeeh.

Plus I re-read the scan about the "power source not strong enough to kill Bill", and it says only about not finding an element with enough energy to blast beings in nonexistence, not that "not even something strong as the portal can kill Bill" (and mind you that he didn't use the portal in years after that event).

So yeah, I do not think that the "shaking" stuff applies to Bill in the 1st place. I changed my mind about the downscaling thing.
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Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

Does shaking count as affect?
 
Hellformer said:
Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)
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"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.

I doubt so, honestly. Even if it's the case (like shaking an infinite universe is still High 3-A), Bill wouldn't really scale from it anyway for the reasons I've said above.
 
StrymULTRA said:
"powered" is a big word, given that the thing used it only as the pelvis for its legs, and wasn't exactly powered from it, but from these guys, which makes me think it wasn't using the Tier 1 energy, methinks.
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It was made by Fiddleford, who was shown to have nearly equal intelligence to Stanford. I really doubt he would not use the portal since he knows how powerful it is
 
ShionAH said:
It was made by Fiddleford, who was shown to have nearly equal intelligence to Stanford. I really doubt he would not use the portal since he knows how powerful it is
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I got the Journal, and it was straight-up called a "Power Core" there. So ig you're right.
 
Deagonx said:
Being called a "higher plane" isn't helpful, and I am not as persuaded about the optical illusions being evidence of higher spatial dimensions. The "Fifth-Dimensional Calculus" reference with regard to building the portal device seems better but it's so vague that it's hard to consider it good enough information for qualitative superiority.
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Calculus in higher dimensions are about change rates in complex coordinate spaces. Afaik it would have to be geometric in principle for that sentence to make logical sense.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Problem: they're described as being Pan-dimensional beings, which would mean that they pertain to all dimensions of reality. Wouldn't this mean that they're related to also spatial dimensions, due to Ford using the term to describe both universes and spatial axes?
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You can exist within string dimensions since they're threaded in higher dimensional shapes, they're just not significant enough to warrant higher tier scaling. So like I said it can be a standard 4D+7D bulk space without any of them having 11-Coordinate Dimensions or the total cosmology being High 1-C.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You can exist within string dimensions since they're threaded in higher dimensional shapes, they're just not significant enough to warrant higher tier scaling. So like I said it can be a standard 4D+7D bulk space without any of them having 11-Coordinate Dimensions or the total cosmology being High 1-C.
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Which is kinda of weird given that they're still higher dimensions regardless.

However, the Nightmare Realm would still be 1-B in size, as not only it can hold within itself all these dimensions, it's also called as infinite itself as well, which would still make it qualify (reason why TTGL is such tier after all), right?

Edit: Gurren Lagann is indeed High 1-C off having the 10 and 11th dimensions as being branes, other than several statements of infinite universe/multiverse, and Hyperdimension Neptunia is "possibly" 1-C due to it having 9 Dimensional coordinates and infinite statements as well. I think that a "Low 1-C, possibly 1-B" for Bill should definitely be a thing at minimum given how the site handles this stuff.

Edit 2: Noticed that Nasuverse characters like BB are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C off similar arguments as well.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
The Brane Cosmology has every dimension as being infinitely thin strings that are separated from the higher dimension, thus allowing for Tier 1 to be valid here.

Same reason why Gurren Lagann is High 1-C and Touhou should also be.
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Gurren Lagann, isn't it because in the higher dimension it's just records?
 
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