Bill Cipher: Hax and Speed upgrades

[StrymULTRA]

Considering the previous upgrade, I decided to make this second one for Bill Cipher, as I think that after his tiering, we can how talk about other factors.

Hax

The first thing is the abilities of Bill, given that there are some important stuff I'd like to talk. I made a prettier P&A section for Bill here, with some changes I'd like to discuss...

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation

The argument in short is that "meaning" in Gravity Falls, as explained from Bill himself, is a concept that is shaped from human consciousness and isn't built in the universe. This is a direct reference to the Jungian Archetypes, which are essentially patterns that exists outside of the physical world and that are within the subconscious, which everything and everyone indirectly uses as basic models to shape other ideas (hence why they're accepted as being Type 1 concepts).

Bill should have the full NPI on Type 1 concepts in his Mindscape key, as he did taste said meaning, and full Type 1 CM in his Physical Form, as the Weirdmageddon has completely altered reality to the point that meaning has no meaning, implying that the Weirdmageddon can also alter these archetypes.

Space Survival

Bill for pretty obvious reasons can survive in space. Thus I removed the resistance to Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiations in favor of Space Survival (duh).

Resistance to Transmutation

Bill also should resist Transmutation for the same reason he is resisting petrification, as if he can leave his body after that it was petrified, nothing says that he can't do the same if it's reduced to stuff like glass or paper.

Resistance to Time Manipulation

As the Nightmare Realm is a place that is totally outside time, laws, casuality and physics due to it being outside all the universes, Bill should also not be affected from time due to him having made the Nightmare Realm his home, which is already explained from his Type 4 Acausality that is already in his profile.

Speed

The funny part is speed. The entire thing is listed here, but I'll list it anyway.

We all know that the Dimensional Rift would have destroyed the fabric of existence with a giant explosion. This would be already infinite speed due to the Nightmare Realm being an infinite-sized Bulk space that encompasses within itself an infinite multiverse.

Bill should be comparable to the Rift due to him not only having created the Rift, but also having his powers linked to and empowered from the Rift, other than also sustaining it, as when he dies, the Rift also disappears along with all of its effects, implying some UES kind of stuff going on here.

This would also affect Shacktron for obvious reasons.

Little nitpick, every Gravity Falls character should have the Disney category, given that it's still owned from it as also pointed in our Disney Page, only Shacktron has it fsr.

TLDR

• Bill should have as new hax
  • Type 1 conceptual manipulation due to him interacting with meanings, which in-verse are jungian archetypes
  • Space Survival
  • Resistance to Transmutation for same reason as Petrification
  • Resistance to Time Hax for same reason as Type 4 Acausality
• Bill should also have infinite speed, due to him being comparable to the Rift that can destroy with an explosion the cosmology.

 

[Orioreeem]

Disagree with infinite speed, you can create and destroy a realm instantly if you have enough range and sustaining it also isn't a proof of it, the rest is fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree with infinite speed, you can create and destroy a realm instantly if you have enough range and sustaining it also isn't a proof of it, the rest is fine.

Infinite speed comes from Bill having the same source as the Rift, which can destroy everything with an explosion that visibly crosses everything, it's not just off destroying the stuff.

It's why Goku is MFTL+ after all, he should be comparable to the Ki Waves that destroy the universe.

 

[Orioreeem]

Does DBS have accepted UES?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Does DBS have accepted UES system?

It's literally one of the main examples here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Heavily disagree with infinite speed. Creating an attack, or having your powers tied to an attack, does not mean your speed scales to it by default. For example, many verses have characters who use their own power to create fireballs and lightning bolts, but we do not scale their physical movement speed to that of lightning or an explosion by default. There's no established correlation between the Dimensional Rift and Bill's speed, and there's also no reason to assume there is.

 

[Orioreeem]

If this verse also has UES accepted then it should be fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Heavily disagree with infinite speed. Creating an attack, or having your powers tied to an attack, does not mean your speed scales to it by default.

Goku.

There's no established correlation between the Dimensional Rift and Bill's speed, and there's also no reason to assume there is.

I mean, Bill's powers are empowered by the minute from the thing. It's blatant UES stuff going on here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The UES has to apply to speed, which does not appear to be the case here. We do not assume a UES scales to speed by default.

Goku.

I mean, Bill's powers are empowered by the minute from the thing. It's blatant UES stuff going on here.

Whataboutism aside, Dragon Ball has clearly established that speed multipliers are a thing, making characters faster in cases where their transformation ls also make them stronger. This, the speed scaling is more reasonable there. Gravity Falls doesn't operate on that same logic, so comparing the two is fallacious.

Bill is empowered by the rift, sure. What proves that empowerment applies to speed as well as power? We don't just assume an amp applies to speed by default.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The UES has to apply to speed, which does not appear to be the case here. We do not assume a UES scales to speed by default.

Do we? I am sure as hell that we do, given that all the stats are powered up from it.

Dragon Ball has clearly established that speed multipliers are a thing, making characters faster in cases where their transformation ls also make them stronger.

I am talking about the BoG feat, which is immensely faster than anything before, even with the stacked multipliers that were used in DBZ, not the multipliers that were used.

Bill is empowered by the rift, sure. What proves that empowerment applies to speed as well as power? We don't just assume an amp applies to speed by default.

It's mostly off the fact that he generally became stronger in literally every possible way, so I suppose that works too kek.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Do we? I am sure as hell that we do, given that all the stats are powered up from it.

I am talking about the BoG feat, which is immensely faster than anything before, even with the stacked multipliers that were used in DBZ, not the multipliers that were used.

It's mostly off the fact that he generally became stronger in literally every possible way, so I suppose that works too kek.

We do not.

The point is that DB has established a connection between speed and its UES. Gravity Falls does not.

If there are statements suggesting Bill became faster due to the rift, please post them. If not, then your entire argument is built on assuming we automatically scale all energy systems to the user's speed, when we do not do that and never have.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As an aside, part of the reason we do not automatically let energy systems scale to speed is because the consequences of that would make every verse that is high 3-A or higher automatically scale to infinite speed. As you can probably tell, we do not do that.

 

[Robo432343]

But bill isn’t manipulating the concept of meaning
He is manipulating the meaning OF SOMETHING

 

[StrymULTRA]

If there are statements suggesting Bill became faster due to the rift, please post them. If not, then your entire argument is built on assuming we automatically scale all energy systems to the user's speed, when we do not do that and never have.

Well... idk if that helps, however... as already said in his profile in the speed part, Stanford would be MFTL+ if he accepts Bill's powers, due to the Galaxy size he'd get. Bill's scales above that due to his Power Bestowal granting larger size, as even shown here where he turns himself and his friends to planet size, with all of those character still being below Bill due to them receiving this power only if Bill grants them such. Meaning that in-verse, getting greater power should also grant higher speed. Heck, not only does he state that he has infinite power, but also promises to Stanley to give him such. Yes, you may say that "hey they only get that from Bill's own power, so it'd be circular logic", I'd remind you that Bill gives that same power given from the Rift, meaning that the same logic would work for also him.

I'd bring other stuff but I'd need more time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But bill isn’t manipulating the concept of meaning
He is manipulating the meaning OF SOMETHING

Meanings are concepts in-verse, not that he manipulates the concept of meaning lol.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well... idk if that helps, however... as already said in his profile in the speed part, Stanford would be MFTL+ if he accepts Bill's powers, due to the Galaxy size he'd get. Bill's scales above that due to his Power Bestowal granting larger size, as even shown here where he turns himself and his friends to planet size, with all of those character still being below Bill due to them receiving this power only if Bill grants them such. Meaning that in-verse, getting greater power should also grant higher speed. Heck, not only does he state that he has infinite power, but also promises to Stanley to give him such. Yes, you may say that "hey they only get that from Bill's own power, so it'd be circular logic", I'd remind you that Bill gives that same power given from the Rift, meaning that the same logic would work for also him.

I'd bring other stuff but I'd need more time.

That's a speed increase via a size increase and is in no way indicative of power amps granting speed amps by default. If I suddenly grew twice as tall as I am now, I'd probably be a lot faster, but that's less of a "speed amp" and moreso just a consequence of being Really Tall. So, this still doesn't work.

 

[Damage3245]

The counter-arguments against the OP for the speed upgrade seem more convincing to me.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I disagree with Infinite speed for reasons stated. The rest of the OP seems fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's a speed increase via a size increase and is in no way indicative of power amps granting speed amps by default. If I suddenly grew twice as tall as I am now, I'd probably be a lot faster, but that's less of a "speed amp" and moreso just a consequence of being Really Tall. So, this still doesn't work.

You know what? Fine, I'll concede for now as I do not find direct statements for speed increases here, nor other infinite speed feats.

 

[segetero]

To me, the scan for cm1 suggests that meaning does not govern over anything, as Bill states meaning is different from function, definition, and purpose, even going as far as to suggest everything is meaningless, with chestnuts being as meaningless as life being his example.

 

[StrymULTRA]

To me, the scan for cm1 suggests that meaning does not govern over anything, as Bill states meaning is different from function, definition, and purpose, even going as far as to suggest everything is meaningless, with chestnuts being as meaningless as life being his example.

He explains it being something that is determined from the consciousness, which does not exist in the universe. This is a literal reference to Jungian stuff.

It being different from function, definition, and purpose does not mean it's not governing over them, given that it's still the basis of said things. Jungian Archetypes are basically "skeletons" which the rest of the concepts are based upon, like the Archetype of Mother being fundamentally the same for all of them, but represented in different forms (or better, people here), due to these Archetypes being outside the physical world and being the same in both space and time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral about Infinite speed; I am mainly asking for more context. But the rest look good.

Though, if it's in the form of a blast reaching infinite distance, I'd at least advocate attack speed being upgraded.

 

[segetero]

He explains it being something that is determined from the consciousness, which does not exist in the universe. This is a literal reference to Jungian stuff.

It being different from function, definition, and purpose does not mean it's not governing over them, given that it's still the basis of said things. Jungian Archetypes are basically "skeletons" which the rest of the concepts are based upon, like the Archetype of Mother being fundamentally the same for all of them, but represented in different forms (or better, people here), due to these Archetypes being outside the physical world and being the same in both space and time.

If meaning is different from function definition and purpose, why should I assume the manipulation of meaning would affect any of the former, especially since nowhere in the scan are jungian archetypes mentioned.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If meaning is different from function definition and purpose, why should I assume the manipulation of meaning would affect any of the former

Being different =/= Being not above it.

Jungian Archetypes, as said, are a fundamentally way simplier version of the concepts that are defined from them, due to them being just the basic structures that are the foundation of those, hence why they're different.

especially since nowhere in the scan are jungian archetypes mentioned.

We do not need to be spoonfed about this if the parallels are painfully clear to us. This is why the verse is accepted to use Brane Cosmology for its Tier 1 levels despite not directly mentioning any of these theories, but many lots of hints of them even visually.

 

[REX9097]

Agree with everything except infinite speed (disagree with Infinite speed)

 

[segetero]

Being different =/= Being not above it.

Jungian Archetypes, as said, are a fundamentally way simplier version of the concepts that are defined from them, due to them being just the basic structures that are the foundation of those, hence why they're different.

We do not need to be spoonfed about this if the parallels are painfully clear to us. This is why the verse is accepted to use Brane Cosmology for its Tier 1 levels despite not directly mentioning any of these theories, but many lots of hints of them even visually.

Except Bill himself states chestnuts lack meaning; if he meant this in the cm1 type way, chestnuts would not exist as lacking the concept would erase all instances, but that is not what is happening here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except Bill himself states chestnuts lack meaning; if he meant this in the cm1 type way, chestnuts would not exist as lacking the concept would erase all instances, but that is not what is happening here.

I hope you do realize this is the same Bill who lacks causality and laws, and cannot comprehend their existence, of course he wouldn't find a meaning in either, because he's outside of them.

Bill claims that life is meaningless because he technically isn't even human, so he wouldn't even get bothered with such a concept, given that time isn't exactly relevant for him either.

Edit: Forgot that Bill also finds life itself to be meaningless, and compares it to chestnuts, given both are insignificant to him, not that they literally lack a meaning.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I disagree with infinite speed as well as Type 1 Concept Manip. It doesn't seem like he's doing anything to meaning itself, as in the concept, just changing someone elses.

Also just being outside time or in a place without time isn't a good reason to resist time manip I believe

 

[segetero]

I hope you do realize this is the same Bill who lacks causality and laws, and cannot comprehend their existence, of course he wouldn't find a meaning in either, because he's outside of them.

Bill claims that life is meaningless because he technically isn't even human, so he wouldn't even get bothered with such a concept, given that time isn't exactly relevant for him either.

Edit: Forgot that Bill also finds life itself to be meaningless, and compares it to chestnuts, given both are insignificant to him, not that they literally lack a meaning.

Your entire argument is based on bill using some literal cm1 type interpretation of meaning.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It doesn't seem like he's doing anything to meaning itself, as in the concept, just changing someone elses.

He literally is tasting the meaning of life, as already accepted in the profile rn:

• Non-Physical Interaction (Showcased to interact with other Mindscape beings multiple times.[1][5] Claimed to have tasted the concept of life. which he adds that it tastes like "Uracil Cytocine and Thymine",[3] although if this is meant to be taken literally is debatable)

I just wanna update it to both a fully Concept interaction and Type 1 instead of 2.

Bill also saying that "Meaning has no Meaning" in his Physical Form just reiforces his ability to alter concepts, as he already could touch them in his 2-D form.

Also being outside time or in a place without time isn't a good reason to resist time manip I believe

"I believe" is not an argument, keep this subjectivity out of here.

Bill already made the Nightmare Realm his home, with it already lacking time, laws, physics and causality, due to it being outside all the infinite universes, each having a different flow of time and laws from each other.

For the same reason why he's Type 4, he also should have resistance. We do apply the same for similar cases after all.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Your entire argument is based on bill using some literal cm1 type interpretation of meaning.

I mean, yes. Bill also knows what causality is but doesn't mean that he finds it worth of something. Same applies here.

 

[CurrySenpai]

"I believe" is not an argument, keep this subjectivity out of here.

Bill already made the Nightmare Realm his home, with it already lacking time, laws, physics and causality, due to it being outside all the infinite universes, each having a different flow of time and laws from each other.

For the same reason why he's Type 4, he also should have resistance. We do apply the same for similar cases after all.

Wooooah no need to accuse me of being subjective, I was saying "I believe" because I wasn't entirely sure if it was a valid reason.

He literally is tasting the meaning of life, as already accepted in the profile rn:

• Non-Physical Interaction (Showcased to interact with other Mindscape beings multiple times.[1][5] Claimed to have tasted the concept of life. which he adds that it tastes like "Uracil Cytocine and Thymine",[3] although if this is meant to be taken literally is debatable)

I just wanna update it to both a fully Concept interaction and Type 1 instead of 2.

Bill also saying that "Meaning has no Meaning" in his Physical Form just reiforces his ability to alter concepts, as he already could touch them in his 2-D form.

I don't think this is good enough to substantiate concept manipulation. I can have a near-death experience or die and be resuscitated, but that doesn't exactly mean I can manipulate death.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think this is good enough to substantiate concept manipulation. I can have a near-death experience or die and be resuscitated, but that doesn't exactly mean I can manipulate death.

This is objectively not the same, you cannot say that death has a taste.

Not to mention that Bill describes all concepts as having one:

Your QUESTION IS FLAWED, JACK! You can't just scoop a noun out of a pile and ask what it's "meaning" is. Meaning is determined by conscious judgement, not inherently built into the universe. What if you asked "what is the meaning of yellow?" or "what is the meaning of butterscotch?" YOU'D GET THROWN OUT OF THE DINNER PARTY BUSTER! These chestnuts are as meaningless as your dusty old "meaning of life" foofarah. You can ask life's purpose, definition, function, even it's taste- but you can't ask for it's "meaning"

BY THE WAY LIFE TASTES LIKE URACIL CYTOCINE AND THYMINE!! ITS DISGUSTING!!

 

[StrymULTRA]

with chestnuts being as meaningless as life being his example.

Oh btw, about this, he didn't literally say that chestnuts are without meaning, he reffered the meanings of yellow and butterscotch as chestnuts, not that the fruit is literally without a meaning lol.

 

[CurrySenpai]

This is objectively not the same, you cannot say that death has a taste.

Not to mention that Bill describes all concepts as having one:

Your QUESTION IS FLAWED, JACK! You can't just scoop a noun out of a pile and ask what it's "meaning" is. Meaning is determined by conscious judgement, not inherently built into the universe. What if you asked "what is the meaning of yellow?" or "what is the meaning of butterscotch?" YOU'D GET THROWN OUT OF THE DINNER PARTY BUSTER! These chestnuts are as meaningless as your dusty old "meaning of life" foofarah. You can ask life's purpose, definition, function, even it's taste- but you can't ask for it's "meaning"

BY THE WAY LIFE TASTES LIKE URACIL CYTOCINE AND THYMINE!! ITS DISGUSTING!!

This isn't concept manipulation, this is him experiencing a sensation or somewhat "otherworldy" ability and describing what it can do and what it's like. You'd have to show me scans of him using this so-called meaning he's experienced as an ability or changing what it does.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This isn't concept manipulation, this is him experiencing a sensation or somewhat "otherworldy" ability

This is Concept NPI tho, as already listed in the profile.

You'd have to show me scans of him using this so-called meaning he's experienced as an ability or changing what it does.

He literally claimed that "meaning has no meaning" due to Weirdmageddon effects, which would make sense narratively due to him planning to free the multiverse from all laws, logic and restrictions, massively warping reality as result, so him also altering concepts to this degree also fits.

 

[segetero]

Oh btw, about this, he didn't literally say that chestnuts are without meaning, he reffered the meanings of yellow and butterscotch as chestnuts, not that the fruit is literally without a meaning lol.

My bad with the chestnuts part, but just replace chestnuts with the color yellow, and my argument remains intact.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My bad with the chestnuts part, but just replace chestnuts with the color yellow, and my argument remains intact.

He says that the meaning of butterscoth and yellow for him are as worthless as the meaning of life, he doesn't deny their existence, just that he finds those useless like the laws.

 

[segetero]

The whole issue I have here is that when Bill says, “Meaning is determined by conscious judgment, not inherently built into the universe,” I think he intends to say that meaning is subjective and not some inherent truth. For instance, to me, my childhood home means warmth and safety; had I been abused, it would likely have a more hostile meaning. However, in all reality, it is just a house. This is all to say: I do not believe Bill is suggesting perception governs reality.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The whole issue I have here is that when Bill says, “Meaning is determined by conscious judgement, not inherently built into the universe,” I think he intends to say that meaning is subjective and not some inherent truth. For instance, to me, my childhood home means warmth and safety; had I been abused, it would likely have a more hostile meaning. However, in all reality, it is just a house.

But here's the thing. This is what Jungian Archetypes do, the things that are based off them are fundamentally different due to them being interpreted differently from the stuff that partakes into them (hence why it's "subjective"), reason why they appear as very different between different societies/cultures, hence why the massive differences despite being based on the same thing.

Bill just finds those worthless because these things aren't a bother to him, but how he describes it is definitely something that is a thing, and he seems to associate concept with meaning anyways there.