Bill Cipher: Hax and Speed upgrades

[StrymULTRA]

Dude he fcking ate that shit like actually and claimed he was messing with it lmao what more do you want

It being some LN or something.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Dude he fcking ate that shit like actually and claimed he was messing with it lmao what more do you want

I haven't really been given scans on this from strym so if you could send this that'd be great.

 

[ShionAH]

I haven't really been given scans on this from strym so if you could send this that'd be great.

Bill tastes the concept of life

"TIME IS DEAD AND MEANING HAS NO MEANING. EXISTENCE IS UPSIDE DOWN AND I REIGN SUPREME."

 

[StrymULTRA]

I haven't really been given scans on this from strym so if you could send this that'd be great.

He literally tasted it as said from Shion, idk why you keep ignoring this.

 

[CurrySenpai]

He literally tasted it as said from Shion, idk why you keep ignoring this.

You didn't send me the links you kinda just said it so i had nothing to watch, but I will watch the stuff now that I have it.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

My issue with Type 1 CM is that he is not manipulating the concept in anyway, it just doesn't make sense, so I still disagree

Dude, read the P&A Page he listed above.
Its all for his NPI, as he can clearly interact with this kind of thing.

Tho, the "meaning has no meaning" arguments can be used for conceptual erasure tbh

 

[ShionAH]

I will list feats and statements that can be linked to the concept

 

[Georredannea15]

Well, this type is not 1 cm.

Because simply

Being outside the physical world =/= Being an abstraction that is inherently independent of reality. It's simple, a person or any object can be fundamentally outside of the physical world/space and still be connected to it.

We basically do the same thing for acausality type 4.

 

[ShionAH]

All possible Bill Conceptual Feats

• Claimed to have tasted the concept of life. which he adds that it tastes like "Uracil Cytocine and Thymine"
• THIS PARTY NEVER STOPS. TIME IS DEAD AND MEANING HAS NO MEANING. EXISTENCE IS UPSIDE DOWN AND I REIGN SUPREME. WELCOME ONE AND ALL, TO WEIRDMAGEDDON!
• Weirdmageddon is a "Time Dodge"
• I ASK YOU WHY SHOULD TIME ONLY MOVE FORWARD WHY MUST CAUSE PRECEDE EFFECT WHO VOTED ON THE LAWS OF PHYSICS RULES ARE PERVERSIONS AGAINST ALL WILL THAT'S WHY IM ABOUT TO REWRITE THE WHOLE SYSTEM BUDDY AND NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP ME
• Anything will be possible. I'll remake a fun world, a better world.
• No more restrictions, no more laws!
• Killed Time Baby, which might be a metaphor about how Bill killed Time

 

[CurrySenpai]

Bill tastes the concept of life

"TIME IS DEAD AND MEANING HAS NO MEANING. EXISTENCE IS UPSIDE DOWN AND I REIGN SUPREME."

So you're telling me... you're trying to use a quote where he is basically just gloating and being eccentric as a means to justify him having control over the concept of meaning?

Yeah no, I hate to use this, but it's such a clear case of flowery language that I'm surprised this is the conclusion you came to. Bill saying "Meaning has no meaning" does not mean he is literally controlling the concept of meaning as it is in GF, and even you say "he tasted the concept of life" that does not mean he can manipulate it, calling back to my example of what if I were to die than be resuscitated.

It's a very common trope in fiction anyway for people to experience some sort of otherworldly or higher sensation, but we don't say that they can control or utilize it however they want without solid proof.

I still disagree with this thread, and I doubt you can change my mind if this is all you have.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Being outside the physical world =/= Being an abstraction that is inherently independent of reality. It's simple, a person or any object can be fundamentally outside of the physical

"Not inheritenly built into the universe"
Did anyone in here atleast see the scans?

 

[Georredannea15]

"Not inheritenly built into the universe"
Did anyone in here atleast see the scans?

What do you want to say? Pls say it clearly.

 

[ShionAH]

So you're telling me... you're trying to use a quote where he is basically just gloating and being eccentric as a means to justify him having control over the concept of meaning?

I am not using a single quote to justify this, I am using all these quotes to show that Bill possibly has some sort of control over these concepts and then using the fact that HE ATE ONE OF THEM as a way to support my argument further into a full ability.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Yeah no, I hate to use this, but it's such a clear case of flowery language that I'm surprised this is the conclusion you came to.

Wow, Bill with Supergenius Intelligence appears to be having flowery languange in his statement when it is very clear that his explanation about 'meaning" is objective.

that does not mean he can manipulate it, calling back to my example of what if I were to die than be resuscitated.

NPI.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Wow, Bill with Supergenius Intelligence appears to be having flowery languange in his statement when it is very clear that his explanation about 'meaning" is objective.

Having super genius intellect does not give you a magic ticket to never use flowery language.

 

[ShionAH]

Why would Bill lie where he was just explaining what he was doing in Weirdmageddon? The quote is obviously trying to show the viewers how serious of a threat this is.

Again this is supported so much, you have to call ALL OF THEM flowery language to reject it.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

What do you want to say? Pls say it clearly.

The "meaning" in there is stated to be not built in (as in) the universe/reality, with the creation being made by "consciousness mind" (most of the refutation is already been made for this, you need to see the full thread before jumping into conclusion)

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Having super genius intellect does not give you a magic ticket to never use flowery language.

In a serious manner, he was never using flowery languange, his explanation is objective and pretty much literal.
Show me a scene of him using flowery when in its serious tones.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Why would Bill lie where he was just explaining what he was doing in Weirdmageddon? The quote is obviously trying to show the viewers how serious of a threat this is.

I said he used flowery language, not that he lied, those are two different things so don’t confuse them.

Again this is supported so much, you have to call ALL OF THEM flowery language to reject it.

I don’t have to, and I don’t think pretending that I do is a good argument, especially when those arguments and quotes you sent don’t seem all too good for evidence.

 

[ShionAH]

I said he used flowery language, not that he lied, those are two different things so don’t confuse them.

Flowery Language is exaggeration and lies.

I don’t have to, and I don’t think pretending that I do is a good argument, especially when those arguments and quotes you sent don’t seem all too good for evidence.

Your entire rebuttal was that it was flowery language and a lie in your opinion, I objectively cannot argue back since its subjective. So I guess we should move on and see the remaining votes from others.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Flowery Language is exaggeration and lies.

Yes on the former, no on the latter.

 

[Georredannea15]

The "meaning" in there is stated to be not built in (as in) the universe/reality, with the creation being made by "consciousness mind" (most of the refutation is already been made for this, you need to see the full thread before jumping into conclusion)

I don't think this relates to CM

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think this relates to CM

Literally how.

 

[Georredannea15]

Literally how.

Can you explain a little more buddy? Am I missing something?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you explain a little more buddy? Am I missing something?

Bill basically explains that for him, the meaning of concepts is something that isn't present in the physical universe, and is determined by conscious judgement, and each concepts, other than a meaning, has also definition, function, and taste (with him even tasting life itself lol).

Hence why I got the idea that is CM.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Considering the previous upgrade, I decided to make this second one for Bill Cipher, as I think that after his tiering, we can how talk about other factors.

Hax

The first thing is the abilities of Bill, given that there are some important stuff I'd like to talk. I made a prettier P&A section for Bill here, with some changes I'd like to discuss...

Oke doke

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation

The argument in short is that "meaning" in Gravity Falls, as explained from Bill himself, is a concept that is shaped from human consciousness and isn't built in the universe. This is a direct reference to the Jungian Archetypes, which are essentially patterns that exists outside of the physical world and that are within the subconscious, which everything and everyone indirectly uses as basic models to shape other ideas (hence why they're accepted as being Type 1 concepts).

Bill should have the full NPI on Type 1 concepts in his Mindscape key, as he did taste said meaning, and full Type 1 CM in his Physical Form, as the Weirdmageddon has completely altered reality to the point that meaning has no meaning, implying that the Weirdmageddon can also alter these archetypes.

At most I'd warrent a possibly "Meaning has no meaning" could just be a fancy way to describe how reality is weird, rather than him literally changing meaning itself

edit: Him tasting life tho would warrent type 1 conceptual NPI if that even exists lol

Space Survival

Bill for pretty obvious reasons can survive in space. Thus I removed the resistance to Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiations in favor of Space Survival (duh).

Sure

Resistance to Transmutation

Bill also should resist Transmutation for the same reason he is resisting petrification, as if he can leave his body after that it was petrified, nothing says that he can't do the same if it's reduced to stuff like glass or paper.

Logically yeah, but define unconventional

Resistance to Time Manipulation

As the Nightmare Realm is a place that is totally outside time, laws, casuality and physics due to it being outside all the universes, Bill should also not be affected from time due to him having made the Nightmare Realm his home, which is already explained from his Type 4 Acausality that is already in his profile.

Living in the nightmare realm doesn't mean immunity from time manipulation, my house could be devoid of time but it doesn't mean that I am immune from time, why he even has Acausality in the first place confuses me.

Speed

The funny part is speed. The entire thing is listed here, but I'll list it anyway.

We all know that the Dimensional Rift would have destroyed the fabric of existence with a giant explosion. This would be already infinite speed due to the Nightmare Realm being an infinite-sized Bulk space that encompasses within itself an infinite multiverse.

Bill should be comparable to the Rift due to him not only having created the Rift, but also having his powers linked to and empowered from the Rift, other than also sustaining it, as when he dies, the Rift also disappears along with all of its effects, implying some UES kind of stuff going on here.

This would also affect Shacktron for obvious reasons.

No, other's have listed reasonings against it, but at most it'd only scale to attack speed

Also he got outran by some kids but whatever, PIS

Little nitpick, every Gravity Falls character should have the Disney category, given that it's still owned from it as also pointed in our Disney Page, only Shacktron has it fsr

Agree

 

[StrymULTRA]

Living in the nightmare realm doesn't mean immunity from time manipulation, my house could be devoid of time but it doesn't mean that I am immune from time, why he even has Acausality in the first place confuses me.

Because he naturally is devoid of these things, similar to how NR itself is Aca 4.

Logically yeah, but define unconventional

Him not being frozen solid when he gets transmuted.

 

[Georredannea15]

Bill basically explains that for him, the meaning of concepts is something that isn't present in the physical universe, and is determined by conscious judgement, and each concepts, other than a meaning, has also definition, function, and taste (with him even tasting life itself lol).

Hence why I got the idea that is CM.

Being outside or not being there =/= being independent of the nature of reality by its abstract nature


I mean this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Being outside or not being there =/= being independent of the nature of reality by its abstract nature


I mean this.

Well... I too am a bit unsure of it, I just assumed that being outside of reality means being independent given that if the universe explodes, the concept would still be fine, no?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Because he naturally is devoid of these things, similar to how NR itself is Aca 4.

But it’s never stated that he himself is devoid of these things, just that he lives in the NR which is, is there proof of him existing in a similar state to the nightmare realm?

Him not being frozen solid when he gets transmuted.

Ok

 

[Georredannea15]

Well... I too am a bit unsure of it, I just assumed that being outside of reality means being independent given that if the universe explodes, the concept would still be fine, no?

If the only this "physical world" destroyed, it doesn't even need to be type 1 to be not affected.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If the only this "physical world" destroyed, it doesn't even need to be type 1 to be not affected.

Wait really? I always though of Type 2 as "if you blow up the universe, the concept ends too".

 

[segetero]

Well... I too am a bit unsure of it, I just assumed that being outside of reality means being independent given that if the universe explodes, the concept would still be fine, no?

Well, if meaning is created by conscious judgment, if reality is destroyed and all the beings doing the judging die along with it, then the meaning would cease as there would be no judge to sustain the meaning, therefore not a type 1 concept.

 

[Georredannea15]

Wait really? I always though of Type 2 as "if you blow up the universe, the concept ends too".

"It depends";

If what disappears is only the physical world, there is no need to type 1, type 2 enough.

If what is called the "universe" is the entire reality itself with all its aspects in the verse, and if a concept being not affected by destroy of this reality, then it would be type 1.

Basically, this is considered as reality, but the fact that it says "outside physical world" here is actually the biggest reason why this is not type 1.

Because, as I said, above all, being outside of a physical space or realm does not mean that you are independent of reality with your abstract nature.

 

[ShionAH]

Well, if meaning is created by conscious judgment, if reality is destroyed and all the beings doing the judging die along with it, then the meaning would cease as there would be no judge to sustain the meaning, therefore not a type 1 concept.

That wouldnt only be blowing the universe, that would be blowing the universe and killing the humans in it

 

[StrymULTRA]

"It depends";

If what disappears is only the physical world, there is no need to type 1, type 2 enough.

If what is called the "universe" is the entire reality itself with all its aspects in the verse, this would be type 1.

Basically, this is considered as reality, but the fact that it says "outside physical world" here is actually the biggest reason why this is not type 1.

Because, as I said, above all, being outside of a physical space or realm does not mean that you are independent of reality with your abstract nature.

I suppose Type 2 kinda of works, ig?

Given the "universe" is literally just one of the many infinite others in the verse, so heh.

 

[segetero]

That wouldnt only be blowing the universe, that would be blowing the universe and killing the humans in it

Humans are a part of the universe.

 

[Georredannea15]

I suppose Type 2 kinda of works, ig?

Given the "universe" is literally just one of the many infinite others in the verse, so heh.

One minute? Isn't the "universe" here really the entire reality in the verse? If it's not, I don't think it is even type 2 or not.

Man, you're sure you're explain it correct, right? Also is there a manipulation feat?

 

[ShionAH]

Humans are a part of the universe.

When we say destory the universe in concepts we mean destroy the space in it to make the concepts not exist. Killing the humans is a addition to that destruction which is not fair to use as an argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

One minute? Isn't the "universe" here really the entire reality in the verse?

What?

If it's not, I don't think it is even type 2 or not.

Why wouldn't it be?

Man, you're sure you're explain it correct, right? Also is there a manipulation feat?

Yes I am. Plus other than Bill eating it, the Weirdmageddon (which was affecting the whole cosmology), said that "Meaning has no Meaning", implying he'd affecting said concepts.