Bill Cipher: Hax and Speed upgrades

[segetero]

But here's the thing. This is what Jungian Archetypes do, the things that are based off them are fundamentally different due to them being interpreted differently from the stuff that partakes into them (hence why it's "subjective"), reason why they appear as very different between different societies/cultures, hence why the massive differences despite being based on the same thing.

Bill just finds those worthless because these things aren't a bother to him, but how he describes it is definitely something that is a thing, and he seems to associate concept with meaning anyways there.

Yes, and since that perception does not literally change the properties of the object, it does not qualify for cm1.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, and since that perception does not literally change the properties of the object, it does not qualify for cm1.

Prove that it wouldn't? It's said to be outside of the universe kek.

 

[segetero]

Prove that it wouldn't? It's said to be outside of the universe kek.

That is not how this works; you are the one arguing for cm1. Prove that it would. Also, Bill says it is not built into the universe, not that it is outside of the universe, because meaning is based on interpretation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That is not how this works; you are the one arguing for cm1. Prove that it would. Also, Bill says it is not built into the universe, not that it is outside of the universe, because it is based on interpretation.

Not built into something means it's outside of it...

 

[segetero]

Not built into something means it's outside of it...

Dude I am not built into my house; however, I am currently sitting in my room. What the bill is suggesting is that meaning is not a property of the universe in the same way the electromagnetic force is; it is not an inherent component of reality. Also, this does not solve the issue that there is literally no textual evidence that all of reality is governed by perception in gravity falls.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Dude I am not built into my house yet, and I am currently sitting in my room. What the bill is suggesting is that meaning is not a property of the universe in the same way the electromagnetic force is; it is not an inherent component of reality. Also, this does not solve the issue that there is literally no textual evidence that all of reality is governed by perception in gravity falls.

Type 1 concepts are not part of reality either despite shaping them at the same time, this is why they're independent, not superior. Type 1 concepts don't have to be like Plato where everything is just a shadow of the forms.

Also, this does not solve the issue that there is literally no textual evidence that all of reality is governed by perception in gravity falls.

Massive strawman here. I never said that reality is built on perceptions, just that how these concepts are in reality is based off them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Neutral about Infinite speed; I am mainly asking for more context. But the rest look good.

Didn't you agree with Dimentio having that off similar reasons?

That's a speed increase via a size increase and is in no way indicative of power amps granting speed amps by default. If I suddenly grew twice as tall as I am now, I'd probably be a lot faster, but that's less of a "speed amp" and moreso just a consequence of being Really Tall. So, this still doesn't work.

Tbh, a new argument can be that given that the Rift is still part of Bill's power, he should still be capable of doing so, as it's still something in Bill's arsenal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Didn't you agree with Dimentio having that off similar reasons?

Tbh, a new argument can be that given that the Rift is still part of Bill's power, he should still be capable of doing so, as it's still something in Bill's arsenal.

Capable of doing what? There is no proof the rift amps his speed, so we should not assume it amps his speed. I don't know how much simpler I can make this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Capable of doing what? There is no proof the rift amps his speed, so we should not assume it amps his speed. I don't know how much simpler I can make this.

It's not about just that, it's more about it being part of his power, given that both are the same in capabilities.

Tho if Dimentio gets infinite speed off that CRT then Bill must too.

 

[segetero]

Massive strawman here. I never said that reality is built on perceptions, just that how these concepts are in reality is based off them.

It is not a strawman; you are arguing that meaning is perception-based and that meaning governs over reality in a way that necessarily affects the properties of the instances it presides over, suggesting that if perception changed, so would the instances, and that is not evidenced in gravity falls

 

[StrymULTRA]

It is not a strawman; you are arguing that meaning is perception-based and that meaning governs over reality in a way that necessarily affects the properties of the instances it presides over, suggesting that if perception changed, so would the instances, and that is not evidenced in gravity falls

I can see what you mean, given that Jungian Archetypes are what shape human psyche and not the other way around, so huuh...

Still suck at Type 2?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not about just that, it's more about it being part of his power, given that both are the same in capabilities.

Tho if Dimentio gets infinite speed off that CRT then Bill must too.

That's absurd. A wizard's lightning bolt is also "part of his power", but that doesn't mean they scale to the bolt's speed. We never scale attack speed to movement speed unless there is a very good reason to do so.

 

[segetero]

I can see what you mean, given that Jungian Archetypes are what shape human psyche and not the other way around, so huuh...

Still suck at Type 2?

I don’t even think meaning in gravity falls governs over reality at all.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don’t even think meaning in gravity falls governs over reality at all.

But it's still a concept though, like "life" is still one.

This falls in your opinion now lol.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Bill is empowered by the rift, sure. What proves that empowerment applies to speed as well as power?

Bill quoted "Even with our INFINITE POWER" after he opens the Rift, and has already shown that his abilities and physicals trait got buffed to a higher degree due to this.

Idk why it can't be said that his speed was also got buffed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bill quoted "Even with our INFINITE POWER" after he opens the Rift, and has already shown that his abilities and physicals trait got buffed to a higher degree due to this.

Idk why it can't be said that his speed was also got buffed

I mean it's also double standard in a way. The rift is literally Bill's power, a part of him.

There's no reason to say he cannot do the same.

 

[segetero]

But it's still a concept though, like "life" is still one.

Bill says life does not have a meaning; the concept of life =\= the meaning of life. I am arguing that meaning does not govern anything in gravity falls. Also, since we have agreed that meaning is governed by perception and therefore not analogous to Jungian archetypes, your argument that Bill's speech was in reference to said archetypes kind of falls flat, so once again, where is the evidence that meaning governs reality in gravity falls?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bill says life does not have a meaning; the concept of life =\= the meaning of life. I am arguing that meaning does not govern anything in gravity falls. Also, since we have agreed that meaning is governed by perception and therefore not analogous to Jungian archetypes, your argument that Bill's speech was in reference to said archetypes kind of falls flat, so once again, where is the evidence that meaning governs reality in gravity falls?

For him it does not have meaning, not that it lacks one, for same reason why he finds it worthless (I already said that).

so once again, where is the evidence that meaning governs reality in gravity falls?

Idk, the two things seem synonymous, as Bill did say that about a concept you can get a purpose, definition, function, and even taste, given that he compared Life to Yellow and Butterscotch, stuff that has no other relation than being concepts.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

We barely got Tier 1 Bill Strym, you should calm down with these upgrades

1. Neutral on CM Type 1
2. I personally think that a Possibly/Likely Infinite Speed looks fine due to Bill himself being the cause of the rift being sustentained, although Attack Speed should definitely be upgraded
3. I disagree with resistance to Transmutation, since he ins´t actually resisting it, however, maybe it could be put as a Minor resistance or an Uncounventional one?

Otherwise, everything looks fine

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Disagree with CM 1 and infinite speed FRA

Also, I would like to question the unconvetional resistance towards petrification and Transmutation?

• Unconventional to Petrification and Transmutation (His Mindscape Form can still act and leave his physical form if it is petrified[8])

He is by no means resisting it, just doing actions that goes around it, and that dose not qualifies as a resistance.

As the description goes, He is just leaving the body as a response to being petrified.... SO let's ask ourself a question, since when do we expect petrification and transmutation to affect non physical stuff?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

1. The resistance to Transmutation should be regarded as limited or minor

I was just writing about the same problem. At least I know now I am not alone.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As the description goes, He is just leaving the body as a response to being petrified.... SO let's ask ourself a question, since when do we expect petrification and transmutation to affect non physical stuff?

It's unconventional for a reason, for the fact he's not frozen there.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It's unconventional for a reason, for the fact he's not frozen there.

Again, the problem is that he is by no means resisting it in any way, conventional or not. He simply having ways to bypass a ability that works on a physical level, by being in a non physical form.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bill quoted "Even with our INFINITE POWER" after he opens the Rift, and has already shown that his abilities and physicals trait got buffed to a higher degree due to this.

Idk why it can't be said that his speed was also got buffed

Power and speed are two different things. Hope this helps!

 

[StrymULTRA]

He simply having ways to bypass a ability that works on a physical level, by being in a non physical form.

Hence unconvetional, as he's still able to oppose it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, the problem is that he is by no means resisting it in any way, conventional or not. He simply having ways to bypass a ability that works on a physical level, by being in a non physical form.

I agree with this, btw.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

Disagree with CM1 and infinite speed FRA

I don't recommend on doing this "FRA" niddly wuddly meat when they're still on debating it, and tbh so far, i'm more convinced on Strym's argument (the opposition seems trying too hard and make a repetition over and over when Strym have refuted it clearly)

 

[StrymULTRA]

the opposition seems trying too hard and make a repetition over and over when Strym have refuted it clearly

Average VBW argument

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If it's been refuted then how come staff have rejected it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Staff can still agree with debunked arguments, smh.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Must not be very good debunks, then.

 

[segetero]

Average VBW argument

Styrm You agreed that since Jungian archetypes govern perception and in gravity falls “meaning” is governed by perception, suggesting that “meaning” cannot be in reference to Jungian archetypes or a type 1 concept. In your original post, a large part of your argument was that Bill was somehow referencing Jungian archetypes, so why should Bill get any form of cm for making meaning have no meaning in weirdmageddon?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Styrm You agreed that since Jungian archetypes govern perception and in gravity falls “meaning” is governed by perception, suggesting that “meaning” cannot be in reference to Jungian archetypes or a type 1 concept. In your original post, a large part of your argument was that Bill was somehow referencing Jungian archetypes, so why should Bill get any form of cm for making meaning have no meaning in weirdmageddon?

Because meanings are still concepts for Bill, kek.

 

[ShionAH]

Can we focus on CM1? Infinite speed is already rejected.

So Bill states that Life and Meaning is not built in the universe and is created by the councious itself, not governed inside the reality and is more meta fictional and beyond. We also know Bill took a bite and tasted this concept and hated it

This is supported by his Weirdmageddon quote about how Meaning will have no Meaning, Time will die and Existence will be flipped and that he reigns supreme above these concepts. Remember Blendin also stated that weirdmageddon killed time and was beyond it, we also know Bills whole purpose is destroying everything meaningful including more metafictional conceptual stuff like logic

By the way we still give resistance to Transmutation if a character can shapeshift back.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can we focus on CM1? Infinite speed is already rejected.

So Bill states that Life and Meaning is not built in the universe and is created by the councious itself, not governed inside the reality and is more meta fictional and beyond. We also know Bill took a bite and tasted this concept and hated it

This is supported by his Weirdmageddon quote about how Meaning will have no Meaning, Time will die and Existence will be flipped and that he reigns supreme above these concepts.

Real, thank you for understanding.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The very fact it's not bound from the universe already means it's CM 1, as otherwise it would still be bound and inside it.

Plus 2 staff already agreed to it.

 

[Jeeeeepil123]

If it's been refuted then how come staff have rejected it?

Which one? DDM, Maverick, or Dmg?
If by what you mean is that "FC/OC Staff", then no (he can participate, but nowhere near to be count as a "Staff Approval" on VSBW... and for your knowledge, Content Moderator rejections here doesn't really counts as "Staff Approval" due the thread is having a controversial topic)

But anyway.
As for his "rejections" problem came because Bill doesn't altering/manipulate this "meaning", not that he says this "meaning" isn't conceptual.
Strym already refute that argument by saying this upgrade is made to justify his "NPI", in which he didn't respond again

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Which one? DDM, Maverick, or Dmg?
If by what you mean that FC/OC Staff member, then no (he can be participate, but nowhere near to be count as a "Staff Approval" on VSBW... and for your knowledge, Content Moderator rejections here doesn't really counts as "Staff Approval" due the thread is having a controversial topic)

But anyway.
As for his "rejections" problem came because Bill doesn't altering/manipulate this "meaning", not that he says this "meaning" isn't conceptual.
Strym already refute that argument by saying this upgrade is made to justify his "NPI", in which he didn't respond again

I was talking about infinite speed.

 

[CurrySenpai]

My issue with Type 1 CM is that he is not manipulating the concept in anyway, it just doesn't make sense, so I still disagree.

 

[ShionAH]

My issue with Type 1 CM is that he is not manipulating the concept

Dude he fcking ate that shit like actually and claimed he was messing with it lmao what more do you want