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ben10(omnitrix) Immeasurable speed downgrade

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Accelerated_Evolution said:
What you described is literally infinite Speed, not immeasurable
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That's what I was trying to tell Reiner
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Already tried and rejected, lol

Again: Speed doesn´t have any relation with higher dimensions, be it spatial or temporal
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Yes. I said that speed has nothing to do with higher dimensionality or anything like that and basically it can be done with the timeline, but that's not the case here
 
Reiner04 said:
Moving across Timeline vs 3 dimension with sheer speed.
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Huh
Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Speed

Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
It is passing by time, not travelling through it via sheer speed in the same way someone like Flash does
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What does that mean? It literally creates the future it's not waiting for the future to happen us who are bound by the flow of time. That said does anyone one know if personal timelines a thing or do any timelines loop in on themselves
Accelerated_Evolution said:
I never said that? I just said the explosion would just need to create time
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The explosion created space by expanding as per my understanding presumably it created time by expanding as well how is expanding space comparable to moving through space but expanding time not equal to moving through time
 
Nvm. I read one just now, it seems Zeno Erasure being treated as just temporal AoE which won't be a speed feat. Same as AX sending galaxies to timeline. If it wasn't argued as range EE (wishing) or temporal hax which is non expanding stuff then it would have been a different case. U can erase whole earth in one go by wishing is different than u erased earth from one point to other. In former case it is range, in later it is speed.
 
Reiner04 said:
Welp, agree to disagree.
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Travel to the end of an infinite space in a finite amount of time is infinite speed, there is no logic for why it would be higher

Reiner04 said:
Link to thread please.
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vsbattles.com

Zeno Immeasurable Attack Speed Upgrade

This is a self-evident but major upgrade, based on the attack speed of Zeno's erasure. JUSTIFICATION Zamasu started growing in Future Trunks' timeline and spread to the main cast's timeline in the present, a fact acknowledged in his profile Zeno's attack originated in the future and the same...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Lou_change said:
What does that mean? It literally creates the future it's not waiting for the future to happen us who are bound by the flow of time. That said does anyone one know if personal timelines a thing or do any timelines loop in on themselves
Click to expand...
It is creating time via an explosion, not going from the past to the future via sheer speed

Fr, the "bounded by the flow of time" part of the immeasurable speed definition causes a mess in discussion

Lou_change said:
The explosion created space by expanding as per my understanding presumably it created time by expanding as well how is expanding space comparable to moving through space but expanding time not equal to moving through time
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If you move through space, you will still be in the same moment in time

If you move through time, you will end in another point in time
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Travel to the end of an infinite space in a finite amount of time is infinite speed, there is no logic for why it would be higher
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Certainly the reason lies in points of disagreement.
Accelerated_Evolution said:
vsbattles.com

Zeno Immeasurable Attack Speed Upgrade

This is a self-evident but major upgrade, based on the attack speed of Zeno's erasure. JUSTIFICATION Zamasu started growing in Future Trunks' timeline and spread to the main cast's timeline in the present, a fact acknowledged in his profile Zeno's attack originated in the future and the same...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
I read it. Just what I said previously, hax ≠ speed. Wishing for earth to go and earth will be just Disappear is range, unlike destroying it with explosion.
Reiner04 said:
That's semantics. Page states to be able to move across time with sheer speed is imm. Bigbang didn't created cosmology by, say, wishing it in existence. But it expanded from point 0 to all of cosmology. An explosion, weapon, can have it
Click to expand...
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Travel to the end of an infinite space in a finite amount of time is infinite speed, there is no logic for why it would be higher


vsbattles.com

Zeno Immeasurable Attack Speed Upgrade

This is a self-evident but major upgrade, based on the attack speed of Zeno's erasure. JUSTIFICATION Zamasu started growing in Future Trunks' timeline and spread to the main cast's timeline in the present, a fact acknowledged in his profile Zeno's attack originated in the future and the same...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com


It is creating time via an explosion, not going from the past to the future via sheer speed

Fr, the "bounded by the flow of time" part of the immeasurable speed definition causes a mess in discussion


If you move through space, you will still be in the same moment in time

If you move through time, you will end in another point in time
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what I'm arguing it is expanding into the future it also stays in the past because it is expanding. If I inflate a balloon and have the air inside it count as part of the balloon the balloon moves into more space and still exists where it was previously.

At least that is my understanding
 
Lou_change said:
Yeah that's what I'm arguing it is expanding into the future it also stays in the past because it is expanding. If I inflate a balloon and have the air inside it count as part of the balloon the balloon moves into more space and still exists where it was previously.
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Reiner04 said:
Hoping into end of time starting from beginning by virtue of expanding/travelling.
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The thing is: It doesn´t goes back and forwards in time, it just infinitely expands, the fact that the big bang is higher dimensional nulifies it necessairly needing to travel through multiple points in time
 
I guess my hang-up @Firestorm808 is that, regardless of how we'd characterize their movement in this timeless space, wouldn't we generally assume their movement is normal when they are in a spacetime continuum?
 
Quintessence_PE said:
Agree: @Mr. Bambu @PrinceofPein @Quintessence_PE @Georredannea15 @SweetDao @ByArrow @Huesito88 @Dark_Soul20189 @Apollonir.Scale @Mayonez_king @RigelBR7 @Aolphl

Disagree: @Firestorm808 @Hellformer @OMNIVERSAL-KING @Reiner04 @Lloydblitzed @TheOrangeGuy09
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Bambu changed his vote to Agreeing with possibly immeasurable.
 
I agree with the downgrade, the rating is fine for different reasons and should be listed as such, I reckon. I haven't read the back discussion though, so I may switch: for now, as long as my position is known, all is well.
 
Deagonx said:
I guess my hang-up @Firestorm808 is that, regardless of how we'd characterize their movement in this timeless space, wouldn't we generally assume their movement is normal when they are in a spacetime continuum?
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To reiterate, we're discussing the "speed" of the energy wave that spans and creates the entire higher dimensional hypertimeline structure (past, present, future, etc.).
 
Firestorm808 said:
To reiterate, we're discussing the "speed" of the energy wave that spans and creates the entire higher dimensional hypertimeline structure (past, present, future, etc.).
Click to expand...
Why does Alien X scale to it? Sorry, I'm out of the loop, but someone asked me to this thread so I am trying to assist.
 
Hellformer said:
I mean Omnitrix can react to the creation and alien x shouldn't be inferior to the tech or else it would make no sense for God tier beings slower than tech
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Just because Alien X>Ben10 Technology does not mean that Alien It may be superior to Omnitrix in terms of AP, but this does not mean that it will also be superior in speed. There are many examples of this on the wiki.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Just because Alien X>Ben10 Technology does not mean that Alien It may be superior to Omnitrix in terms of AP, but this does not mean that it will also be superior in speed. There are many examples of this on the wiki.
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That has been discussed in previous CRT so please refer that
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I agree with the downgrade, the rating is fine for different reasons and should be listed as such, I reckon. I haven't read the back discussion though, so I may switch: for now, as long as my position is known, all is wewell.
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So u mean that u agree with the immeasurable rating for the the different reason but think current description should be changed?
 
Deagonx said:
Why does Alien X scale to it? Sorry, I'm out of the loop, but someone asked me to this thread so I am trying to assist.
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Alien X scales above every AP and speed feat in the verse, due to being omnipotent species. But I believe this thread is about rather Annihilarrgh and rating itself than scaling chain.
 
Deagonx said:
Why does Alien X scale to it? Sorry, I'm out of the loop, but someone asked me to this thread so I am trying to assist.
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The current discussion is regarding the speed of the energy wave itself.

I thought we would be talking about scaling later, but am I to take it that you agree with the original feat being immeasurable but disagree with the current scaling justifications?
 
Firestorm808 said:
The current discussion is regarding the speed of the energy wave itself.

I thought we would be talking about scaling later, but am I to take it that you agree with the original feat being immeasurable but disagree with the current scaling justifications?
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Well, I guess I'm just not intimated with the state of the discussion. I would agree broadly speaking that -- literally -- in the absence of time the "speed" of something cannot be measured and as such it is immeasurable. However as I watched the video, the energy wave moves in a manner that is comparable to the individuals around it, who -- although they are also in a timeless void -- are measured by way of their movements in a normal universe.

So, there's some friction here. On a meta level I'd just assume the writers did not concern themselves with it, the suspension of disbelief is pretty much mandatory for these sorts of things.

On the other hand, our speed page defines immeasurable speed as essentially being able to freely choose your location in both space and time. It seems strange to conclude that from this scene, but perhaps I just don't fully understand the reasoning.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, I guess I'm just not intimated with the state of the discussion. I would agree broadly speaking that -- literally -- in the absence of time the "speed" of something cannot be measured and as such it is immeasurable. However as I watched the video, the energy wave moves in a manner that is comparable to the individuals around it, who -- although they are also in a timeless void -- are measured by way of their movements in a normal universe.
Click to expand...
Ben even existing there for even any sort of miniscule time is an outlier since he can't survive being close to bigbang (PIS). We only take Omnitrix reacting to bigbang and feedback survival and absorbing it as legit since that's important to lore.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, I guess I'm just not intimated with the state of the discussion. I would agree broadly speaking that -- literally -- in the absence of time the "speed" of something cannot be measured and as such it is immeasurable. However as I watched the video, the energy wave moves in a manner that is comparable to the individuals around it, who -- although they are also in a timeless void -- are measured by way of their movements in a normal universe.

So, there's some friction here. On a meta level I'd just assume the writers did not concern themselves with it, the suspension of disbelief is pretty much mandatory for these sorts of things.

On the other hand, our speed page defines immeasurable speed as essentially being able to freely choose your location in both space and time. It seems strange to conclude that from this scene, but perhaps I just don't fully understand the reasoning.
Click to expand...
Overall, it's a Hypertimeline structure. The higher-dimensional energy wave simultaneously created and traversed infinite upon infinite standard timelines and hyper-timeline temporal dimension layers (past, present, future, etc.).

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.
 
Deagonx said:
Why does Alien X scale to it? Sorry, I'm out of the loop, but someone asked me to this thread so I am trying to assist.
Click to expand...
The issue here is that the Omnitrix is reacting to this explosion, a bigbang that created space-time. It doesn't matter how many time dimensions this explosion creates, because no matter how many time dimensions, it is a feat of creation and we cannot treat it as a standard immeasurable speed, there is no evidence that it happens faster than time. There is nothing extra about this explosion except that it creates a hyper timeline, which is not related to immeasurable speed because it shouldn't matter how many time dimensions there are. Apart from that, there are other things that don't make sense in this scene, so it doesn't seem coherent at all.
creating a high-dimensional universe = Immeasurable speed 💀
 
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