ben10(omnitrix) Immeasurable speed downgrade

[Hellformer]

I understand the issue u have. But I disagree with it. I understand the issue Bambu have. And I'm trying to correct him. As far as I can see, his issue seems to be, if he has worded it correctly. That no character in the verse has immeasurable speed so its inconsistent but Annihilarrgh each feat is itself inconsistent since no one but one scales above it in any form. "Weird form of movements" exist throughout verse, infact, in professor Paradox own wording, he "moves on the eternity" and we know he literally does, not with time machine or time manp. But literally walks. But it is not Immeasurable speed because it is not. Timebeast walks beyond linear time skipping it by moving ftl. He is not Immeasurable. Time God literally dodges attack that has already hit him by moving back and forward in time regularly/passively. It is not Immeasurable either.

But in anycase. My motive is to correct and state my opinion. To agree with it or not is choice per person and I respect it.

Reiner got a good point. The downgrade makes no sense. Remember we got the example of Samur Maykr who has immeasurable speed for similar reasoning? So I don't see any point in the bias over here.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

But in anycase. My motive is to correct and state my opinion. To agree with it or not is choice per person and I respect it.

Thank you then we can continue to wait for the votes of other staff

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Reiner got a good point. The downgrade makes no sense.

Dude this is a downgrade, I gave you my opinion, I didn't put a gun to your head to make you agree with it.

 

[Hellformer]

Dude this is a downgrade, I gave you my opinion, I didn't put a gun to your head to make you agree with it.

I know that.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I have a very limited amount of knowledge on Ben 10 (as I haven't watched it since I was a small child), and even less about this particular variant of it since... well. I never watched it.

With that said, my perception of the verse is that they display basically normal movement speeds (that is, not Immeasurable) throughout. They do not have some weird form of movement that makes Immeasurable consistent. It requires a particular interpretation to justify Immeasurable, and I think that taking that over the showings of the rest of the show is a bad approach, especially with such a weird feat for Immeasurable.

As such, I'll agree to the downgrade for now. However, the OP currently gives no proposed destination: just that it should not be Immeasurable. The profiles seem to largely scale to MFTL+, is that the proposal?

No one else scales to this expect the omnitrix and maybe alien x.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Aside the feat in the OP, is there any other thing that proves immeasurable speed?

 

[Reiner04]

Aside the feat in the OP, is there any other thing that proves immeasurable speed?

Annihilarrgh has only detonated twice in the entire series. Once to destroy universe and 2nd time for bigbang. Destroying universe is unclear since it's not an explosion unlike bigbang. So only bigbang and Alien X and Omnitrix scales. Even without feat in op those 2 will have infinite speed due to scaling above Omnitrix self destruct.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Disagree FRA

 

[PrinceofPein]

Annihilarrgh has only detonated twice in the entire series. Once to destroy universe and 2nd time for bigbang. Destroying universe is unclear since it's not an explosion unlike bigbang. So only bigbang and Alien X and Omnitrix scales. Even without feat in op those 2 will have infinite speed due to scaling above Omnitrix self destruct.

So there is no immeasurable speed feat?

 

[Reiner04]

So there is no immeasurable speed feat?

There's just one in the OP which scales to only weapon and AX, there was one feat of AX sending matter throughout time and space of the universe and it's dimensions but it was argued that since AX is doing it, he might have done it with teleportation and time manp. No other character can have or perform immeasurable speed because 99.99% of the verse are tier 5 regulars and scales to each other. AX is only one, exceptionally (without any device), who actually scales above Tier 3, infact.

 

[Reiner04]

What I want to say is it doesn't matter whether anyone else had performed immeasurable speed as well or not. Since being regulars, they simply cannot. There's just one feat that scales to entire cosmology, bigbang. There's just one feat which is immeasurable, bigbang and due to it being one time event, there's nothing against both feats.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There's just one in the OP which scales to only weapon and AX, there was one feat of AX sending matter throughout time and space of the universe and it's dimensions but it was argued that since AX is doing it, he might have done it with teleportation and time manp. No other character can have or perform immeasurable speed because 99.99% of the verse are tier 5 regulars and scales to each other. AX is only one, exceptionally (without any device), who actually scales above Tier 3, infact.

This still means there is no immeasurable speed feat in the verse.

What I want to say is it doesn't matter whether anyone else had performed immeasurable speed as well or not. Since being regulars, they simply cannot. There's just one feat that scales to entire cosmology, bigbang. There's just one feat which is immeasurable, bigbang and due to it being one time event, there's nothing against both feats.

Except a big bang is not an immeasurable speed feat, at least the one in the OP is not.

 

[Reiner04]

Except a big bang is not an immeasurable speed feat, at least the one in the OP is not

Reason being?

 

[Hellformer]

This still means there is no immeasurable speed feat in the verse.

The arguments exist its just that the only one which is accepted was this one

Except a big bang is not an immeasurable speed feat, at least the one in the OP is not.

Already discussed in the previous CRT and refuted the ones who were trying to argue against it in this CRT as well

 

[Quintessence_PE]

The arguments exist its just that the only one which is accepted was this one

Already discussed in the previous CRT and refuted the ones who were trying to argue against it in this CRT as well

it doesn't matter what happened before

No one else scales to this expect the omnitrix and maybe alien x.

You are the third person to say that and it has nothing to do with immeasurable speed.

 

[Reiner04]

You are the third person to say that and it has nothing to do with immeasurable speed.

Beware that the reason you provided is not the only reason people replying can agree or disagree to. They can agree and disagree for their own reason. Those replies aren't for the argument in the OP but what Bambu said. Whether or not it has any sort of importance, is something that the one who argued it should decide.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I understand the issue u have. But I disagree with it. I understand the issue Bambu have. And I'm trying to correct him. As far as I can see, his issue seems to be, if he has worded it correctly. That no character in the verse has immeasurable speed so its inconsistent but Annihilarrgh each feat is itself inconsistent since no one but one scales above it in any form. "Weird form of movements" exist throughout verse, infact, in professor Paradox own wording, he "moves on the eternity" and we know he literally does, not with time machine or time manp. But literally walks. But it is not Immeasurable speed because it is not. Timebeast walks beyond linear time skipping it by moving ftl. He is not Immeasurable. Time God literally dodges attack that has already hit him by moving back and forward in time regularly/passively. It is not Immeasurable either.

But in anycase. My motive is to correct and state my opinion. To agree with it or not is choice per person and I respect it.

My issue is that the feat provided in the OP (which you guys have stated to be the only feat of Immeasurable speed) is already extremely tenuous for reasons laid out in the OP. Reacting to the spread of time from a place with no time is not a concrete fully acceptable Immeasurable speed feat, and I can't think of another verse where we'd accept it to be as such: we've even actively rejected similar feats, the only difference here is that it is asserted that since the Big Bang happens, and that has time, it must be immeasurable. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Given the rest of the show's more consistent showings of speed (reaction or otherwise), I don't think Immeasurable speed is the best way to consider this.

That said: I said before and will reiterate that I am not familiar with the verse. You seem to be suggesting other feats as Immeasurable, and I'd personally recommend doing a CRT for those, rather than mentioning them here, but I get why you're doing it- to paint the picture that other Immeasurable feats exist. I know that we have rejected the FTL thing before for other cases. I can't speak on the other two but must ask: if they are Immeasurable, and seemingly more straightforward than the Omnitrix's claim, why are they not rated as Immeasurable? This isn't a dead verse, surely people have argued it, why is it not accepted? What qualifier am I not being told, what argument to their detriment exists?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

My issue is that the feat provided in the OP (which you guys have stated to be the only feat of Immeasurable speed) is already extremely tenuous for reasons laid out in the OP. Reacting to the spread of time from a place with no time is not a concrete fully acceptable Immeasurable speed feat, and I can't think of another verse where we'd accept it to be as such: we've even actively rejected similar feats, the only difference here is that it is asserted that since the Big Bang happens, and that has time, it must be immeasurable. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Then what do you think this feat should be changed to? Can someone react to something expanding immeasurably with infinite speed or…?

Given the rest of the show's more consistent showings of speed (reaction or otherwise), I don't think Immeasurable speed is the best way to consider this.

Dosen’t matter, agian the only ones that scale to this are the omnitrix and a god tier

 

[Reiner04]

My issue is that the feat provided in the OP (which you guys have stated to be the only feat of Immeasurable speed) is already extremely tenuous for reasons laid out in the OP. Reacting to the spread of time from a place with no time is not a concrete fully acceptable Immeasurable speed feat,

Immeasurable speed requirements are simply:

1. Moving faster than or Time travelling with sheer speed. I understand that there's no time and space where bigbang happened but time is not the factor here since Immeasurable doesn't works on Distance/time in the first place, that place just got converted into a entire timestream as we watch it due to that explosion. Immeasurable speed can work beyond linear time or no time at all as long as it demonstrates that it can cross the infinite timelime with sheer speed.
2. Travelling through dimensions who has their own separate time dimension with sheer speed (not separate space time continuums but separate time dimensions [Hypertimeline]).

Ben 10 Annihilarrgh showcase both points. My issue is not that it'll lose it's Immeasurable speed since whether it has immeasurable or not it barely matters. Those who scale to imm currently also scale to previous infinite speed of several other weapons which itself is good enough. My issue is that it is immeasurable speed. Not trying to sound pushing it so let's just say it is not Immeasurable speed (I'm lying). Yeah it's fine if staff/users thinks otherwise, and technically don't care eitherway it's infinite or imm since both good. But I'll point out that I strongly disagree for reason stated and thinks it's obvious.

That said: I said before and will reiterate that I am not familiar with the verse. You seem to be suggesting other feats as Immeasurable, and I'd personally recommend doing a CRT for those, rather than mentioning them here, but I get why you're doing it- to paint the picture that other Immeasurable feats exist. I know that we have rejected the FTL thing before for other cases. I can't speak on the other two but must ask: if they are Immeasurable, and seemingly more straightforward than the Omnitrix's claim, why are they not rated as Immeasurable? This isn't a dead verse, surely people have argued it, why is it not accepted? What qualifier am I not being told, what argument to their detriment exists?

If u read carefully I actually stated those Aren't immeasurable speed my english issues when i should be having mommy issues and I myself rejected them in many crts (my fault, should have clarified it). They're weird movements that exists throughout verse which breaks the limits of spacetime through abilities, yeah ability to literally move/walk on linear time. Those were examples to showcase that weird movements aren't new in verse but them done with pure speed is.

Given the rest of the show's more consistent showings of speed (reaction or otherwise), I don't think Immeasurable speed is the best way to consider this.

Those who scales to immeasurable are already infinite speed which is way beyond rest of show. To say, this issue will not solve or that it is not the issue regardless of the feat in the OP.

we've even actively rejected similar feats, the only difference here is that it is asserted that since the Big Bang happens, and that has time, it must be immeasurable. It doesn't make much sense to me.

I can assure there's no such feat as ben 10 bigbang in any other verse. And if mistakenly they do. Then they must have just stayed unnoticed. On contrary, most of verses in the wiki has immeasurable speed for same reason as ben 10 bigbang.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Then what do you think this feat should be changed to? Can someone react to something expanding immeasurably with infinite speed or…?

Dosen’t matter, agian the only ones that scale to this are the omnitrix and a god tier

See, that's actually the issue. The big bang isn't immeasurable, it has a speed- just a very, very fast one. When I was looking into this, I'd seen that Firestorm actually did a calc for it (and it was predictably MFTL+, very high into it). The claim for Immeasurable is that since that very spread is also what is spreading time, it must be Immeasurable- but I don't believe we'd consider it as such, and other situations that share elements of this wouldn't work under that logic. I don't see this as being dissimilar to moving in a timeless realm, really.

Immeasurable speed requirements are simply:

1. Moving faster than or Time travelling with sheer speed. I understand that there's no time and space where bigbang happened but time is not the factor here since Immeasurable doesn't works on Distance/time in the first place, that place just got converted into a entire timestream as we watch it due to that explosion. Immeasurable speed can work beyond linear time or no time at all as long as it demonstrates that it can cross the infinite timelime with sheer speed.
2. Travelling through dimensions who has their own separate time dimension with sheer speed (not separate space time continuums but separate time dimensions [Hypertimeline]).

Ben 10 Annihilarrgh showcase both points. My issue is not that it'll lose it's Immeasurable speed since whether it has immeasurable or not it barely matters. Those who scale to imm currently also scale to previous infinite speed of several other weapons which itself is good enough. My issue is that it is immeasurable speed. Not trying to sound pushing it so let's just say it is not Immeasurable speed (I'm lying). Yeah it's fine if staff/users thinks otherwise, and technically don't care eitherway it's infinite or imm since both good. But I'll point out that I strongly disagree for reason stated and thinks it's obvious.

Immeasurable speed is not afforded for moving through their own time dimension but rather moving through multiple dimensions of time simultaneously: if a verse has X amount of temporal dimensions (greater than one) and a character moves through all of them, we'd consider that Immeasurable. Assuming this is what you meant, can you prove that? All of the feats you're mentioning are showings of Immeasurable speed, but the one in the OP shows no evidence of being one once you consider that we've disregarded timeless realm feats in the past. The Big Bang being present isn't Immeasurable, nor is the location in which the Big Bang is occurring.

If u read carefully I actually stated those Aren't immeasurable speed my english issues when i should be having mommy issues and I myself rejected them in many crts (my fault, should have clarified it). They're weird movements that exists throughout verse which breaks the limits of spacetime through abilities, yeah ability to literally move/walk on linear time. Those were examples to showcase that weird movements aren't new in verse but them done with pure speed is.

I don't get the point in mentioning them then?

I can assure there's no such feat as ben 10 bigbang in any other verse. And if mistakenly they do. Then they must have just stayed unnoticed. On contrary, most of verses in the wiki has immeasurable speed for same reason as ben 10 bigbang.

A bold claim, but not one that's relevant. You have two moving parts I've already mentioned earlier in this message: the timeless realm, and the big bang. Neither of these are qualifiers for Immeasurable speed, and I can't think of a good reason why we'd consider them to be Immeasurable thrown together: one has no correlation to speed and the other is just MFTL+.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

See, that's actually the issue. The big bang isn't immeasurable, it has a speed- just a very, very fast one. When I was looking into this, I'd seen that Firestorm actually did a calc for it (and it was predictably MFTL+, very high into it). The claim for Immeasurable is that since that very spread is also what is spreading time, it must be Immeasurable- but I don't believe we'd consider it as such, and other situations that share elements of this wouldn't work under that logic. I don't see this as being dissimilar to moving in a timeless realm, really.

TBF I’m pretty sure this big bang is supposed to be creating Ben 10 multiverses(though I could be wrong). Maybe but wouldn’t you need to move at immesurable speed to reach an immeasurable range?like could you cross an immeasurable distance while moving at infinite speed?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

TBF I’m pretty sure this big bang is supposed to be creating Ben 10 multiverses(though I could be wrong). Maybe but wouldn’t you need to move at immesurable speed to reach an immeasurable range?like could you cross an immeasurable distance while moving at infinite speed?

What do you mean by immeasurable range? I'm also saying that what you're saying is that this is an explosion that created the multiverse and therefore has nothing to do with being faster than time.
We cannot say that an explosion (bigbang) that creates spacetime is faster than time because this explosion is a condition that creates this structure, if it were as you say, everyone who created spacetime would have an immeasurable speed.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

What do you mean by immeasurable distance? I'm also saying that what you're saying is that this is an explosion that created the multiverse and therefore has nothing to do with being faster than time.
We cannot say that an explosion (bigbang) that creates spacetime is faster than time because this explosion is a condition that creates this structure, if it were as you say, everyone who created spacetime would have an immeasurable speed.

When you said that the expansion wasn’t a speed feat and just a range feat I kinda just assumed you meant the distance was immeasurable. That’s mb for assuming that. If it’s not immeasurable in speed then what is your suggestion for the change in speed?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

When you said that the expansion wasn’t a speed feat and just a range feat I kinda just assumed you meant the distance was immeasurable. That’s mb for assuming that. If it’s not immeasurable in speed then what is your suggestion for the change in speed?

they can go back to their old speed, but I don't see a problem with them being infinite speed.

 

[Reiner04]

Immeasurable speed is not afforded for moving through their own time dimension but rather moving through multiple dimensions of time simultaneously: if a verse has X amount of temporal dimensions (greater than one) and a character moves through all of them, we'd consider that Immeasurable. Assuming this is what you meant, can you prove that? All of the feats you're mentioning are showings of Immeasurable speed, but the one in the OP shows no evidence of being one once you consider that we've disregarded timeless realm feats in the past. The Big Bang being present isn't Immeasurable, nor is the location in which the Big Bang is occurring.

I think there's misunderstanding regarding few things I have bolded them in black but will not talk about or elaborate on them (don't get me wrong but I feel like it'll only get more tough to read through and I'm lazy or that I don't want u to go through reading shit Tons of posts to resolve the misunderstanding.) so I'll try to just try to be short. Regarding red point, moving through time with sheer speed is indeed Immeasurable speed... did u meant it as in crossing universes or smth..? If so then crossing universes within same temporal dimension is not Immeasurable speed true But, travelling through time dimension from one point in time to another with sheer speed is. and about blue point, Ben 10 cosmos has 2 temporal dimensions in possibly mentioned in the cosmology page (Hypertimeline). So its crossed atleast 2 temporal dimensions.

See, that's actually the issue. The big bang isn't immeasurable, it has a speed- just a very, very fast one. When I was looking into this, I'd seen that Firestorm actually did a calc for it (and it was predictably MFTL+, very high into it). The claim for Immeasurable is that since that very spread is also what is spreading time, it must be Immeasurable- but I don't believe we'd consider it as such, and other situations that share elements of this wouldn't work under that logic. I don't see this as being dissimilar to moving in a timeless realm, really.

That calc can't be used since every single dimension has been long accepted as infinite.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I think there's misunderstanding regarding few things I have bolded them in black but will not talk about or elaborate on them (don't get me wrong but I feel like it'll only get more tough to read through and I'm lazy or that I don't want u to go through reading shit Tons of posts to resolve the misunderstanding.) so I'll try to just try to be short. Regarding red point, moving through time with sheer speed is indeed Immeasurable speed... did u meant it as in crossing universes or smth..? If so then crossing universes within same temporal dimension is not Immeasurable speed true But, travelling through time dimension from one point in time to another with sheer speed is. and about blue point, Ben 10 cosmos has 2 temporal dimensions in possibly mentioned in the cosmology page (Hypertimeline). So its crossed atleast 2 temporal dimensions.

It would be quite obvious if they travelled at pure speed into the past or the future, or if they could travel through the timelines at pure speed. None of these things seem to exist.

 

[Reiner04]

It would be quite obvious if they travelled at pure speed into the past or the future, or if they could travel through the timelines at pure speed. None of these things seem to exist.

Sigh.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regarding red point, moving through time with sheer speed is indeed Immeasurable speed... did u meant it as in crossing universes or smth..?

That's not what I was saying- I was responding to your position that this thing moved through its own temporal dimension, relating to the idea of moving through multiple temporal dimensions (which is listed as a requirement for Immeasurable speed). If you simply meant "moving through time as movement speed" then I guess we can scrap that point.

and about blue point, Ben 10 cosmos has 2 temporal dimensions in possibly mentioned in the cosmology page (Hypertimeline). So its crossed atleast 2 temporal dimensions.

It is important to clarify: two temporal dimensions not as in a 2-C structure comprising of two timelines, but rather multiple temporal dimensions in a single universe (a Low 1-C or higher structure comprising of at least three spatial dimensions and at least two temporal dimensions)?

 

[Reiner04]

It is important to clarify: two temporal dimensions not as in a 2-C structure comprising of two timelines, but rather multiple temporal dimensions in a single universe (a Low 1-C or higher structure comprising of at least three spatial dimensions and at least two temporal dimensions)?

Low 1-C, Hypertimeline, yeah but I'll note that this Low 1-C rating is in possibly.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Low 1-C, Hypertimeline, yeah but I'll note that this Low 1-C rating is in possibly.

If they move through that, then I suppose I'd be fine with Immeasurable. If it's possibly, it should be "possibly Immeasurable".

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Low 1-C, Hypertimeline, yeah but I'll note that this Low 1-C rating is in possibly.

can you show me the scene where they're travelling through time dimensions at pure speed?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Sigh.

what you wrote in the alien x/omnitrix profile and what you said here are different things, so if you can show them, then we can come to an agreement

 

[Reiner04]

can you show me the scene where they're travelling through time dimensions at pure speed?

Bigbang explosion created entire cosmos of Ben 10 franchise that exist in that white space (highest reality in ben 10).

Ben 10 Cosmology

This page will cover Ben 10 Terminology and Cosmology. This page will use statements from the Ben 10 series, Novels, and Other verified information from secondary sources that are supported by the show. It will go over the Each Term and what each term mean and their supposed Inconsistencies...

vsbattles.fandom.com

what you wrote in the alien x/omnitrix profile and what you said here are different things, so if you can show them, then we can come to an agreement

I wrote anything at all regarding immeasurable speed on AX profile??? I remember just giving my input on the thread related to AX speed. But I did wrote speed justification on Omnitrix profile which is "reacting to Annihilarrgh bigbang".

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Bigbang explosion created entire cosmos of Ben 10 franchise that exist in that white space (highest reality in ben 10).

That's it? that doesn't mean he's travelling through time at pure speed.

If they move through that, then I suppose I'd be fine with Immeasurable. If it's possibly, it should be "possibly Immeasurable".

Is creating a hypertimeline enough to give it immeasurable speed?

 

[Hellformer]

Low 1-C, Hypertimeline, yeah but I'll note that this Low 1-C rating is in possibly.

The concept of hypertimeline isn't in a possibly condition, it's literal but the dimensionality is in a possibly rating however there's another thread going to remove the possibly rating so the immeasurable speed for AX would still be concrete

 

[Reiner04]

The concept of hypertimeline isn't in a possibly condition, it's literal but the dimensionality is in a possibly rating however there's another thread going to remove the possibly rating so the immeasurable speed for AX would still be concrete

No. Hyper-timeline possibly low 1-C rating is due to number of temporal dimensions and possibly 1-B rating of cosmos is due to number of axiomatic spatial dimensions. 1-B becoming solid doesn't mean Hypertimeline will. If u tried altering Hypertimeline rating based on that thread it'll be considered vandalism so please be careful.

 

[Lou_change]

Is the hypertimeline explicitly made by the Big Bang? It seems the time cycles were able to take ben to before the Big Bang for example implying some form of time existed even if the chronosapiens couldn't interact with it? Please correct me if I am horribly mistaken.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Is the hypertimeline explicitly made by the Big Bang? It seems the time cycles were able to take ben to before the Big Bang for example implying some form of time existed even if the chronosapiens couldn't interact with it? Please correct me if I am horribly mistaken.

I believe so? Rook says that Maltruant’s powers don’t work specifically because “time hasn’t begun yet”, and iirc the reason Paradox couldn’t go before the beginning of time was also because time hadn’t started yet (despite him being able to travel across the hypertimeline). Maybe I’m missing something though, I’m not the best with this sort of stuff.

 

[Reiner04]

Is the hypertimeline explicitly made by the Big Bang? It seems the time cycles were able to take ben to before the Big Bang for example implying some form of time existed even if the chronosapiens couldn't interact with it? Please correct me if I am horribly mistaken.

Yup.

Timecycle took them at the beginning of the cosmos in nothingness, the very first state of the cosmos altering to which will decides the existence of whole cosmology.

I personally too think that there was another form of time which connect white space and hypertimeline too (beyond it), but it was rejected and treated as some form of time paradox or pis due to reasons mentioned by @Ghengiroo115 above.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I do want to note, the reasoning for the big bang being immeasurable speed isn't for creating time, it was for creating the ben 10 cosmology, which apparently allows it to be immeasurable speed with the another verse being accepted as immeasurable speed. So if Ben 10 gets downgraded, so should that verse as well