LuciferX
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How a universe is 2-A? due to infinite pocket dimensions?
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Ben 10 Revision - 6-D and 7-D Removal
- Thread starter Aachintya31
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Yeah. Number of branchings are infinite it has nothing to do with cylindrical structure of the timestream.
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A prior thread has discussed the number of dimensions in the universe. Let's refrain from getting off-topic.
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Anyway, after reading all the arguements, infinite 5D as of what that is present in the fabric of existence but still being very limited to the fabric of existence that itself is infinite. I can agree with 6D. Although 7D based of visuals alone I don't think I can as for points pointed out by Grath, they have some thickness.
LuciferX
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Also Contumelia is 5D, How is it even possible to create 7D planes by them?
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.... It's not relevant who created it. An intelligent species on par with azmuth who understands the whole cosmology far beyond the multiverse and whatnot are capable of doing or creating what they themselves couldn't or are not. Paradox himself has created a device that is capable of blowing off whole multiverse despite being 3D and it's quite common in fiction. That's irrelevant.
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Dimensionality doesn't prevent people from manipulating higher dimensional objects/energy via technology or the supernatural like the Sorcerers and Super Scientists of Marvel Comics.
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I suppose I am fine with 6-D timestream
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● Was this ever blatantly shown or stated?
● Do you have scans of space beyond called infinite?
● Also even if there's a scan that calls it infinite why do we assume bigger than infinite is 6-D?
● Why is Ben visible in the timestream cylindrical tunnel and not space beyond?.
Was he shown to dimensional amp?
● Why did maltraut fall from cylindrical tunnel and land directly in the universe?
Doesn't that just shows no qualitative superiority and is just connected to the universe?
If you can answer everything asked clearly, I've got no problem with 6-D for now.
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@Vasco
- Was this ever blatantly shown or stated? Why did Maltraut fall from cylindrical tunnel and land directly in the universe? Doesn't that just shows no qualitative superiority and is just connected to the universe?
- One step outside the universe is the Space Beyond.
- Using a Time Beast Egg allows the user to move from the Universe and exit the Fabric of Existence. The reverse also exists. Ben's and Maltruant's ship went into the fabric of existence and returned to the universe.
- Maltruant was not only pushed along with Ben's ship with a Time Beast Egg, but he also had a second Time Beast egg on him.
- Going inside the Fabric of Existence means going in the direction of the universe. Since the universe is inside the Space Beyond, it's only logical that the Space Beyond is inside the Fabric of Existence.
- Do you have scans of the space beyond called infinite?
- We have already gone through several prior threads confirming that the Space Beyond is infinite to hold infinite universes.
- Why is Ben visible in the timestream cylindrical tunnel and not the Space beyond? Was he shown to dimensional amp?
- Ben is visible in the Space Beyond. I don't follow what you mean.
- The same question can be asked about anyone in media traveling to higher dimensions and still being visible. It's a trope in fiction. I could say the same about human souls being visible in DC's Heaven.
LuciferX
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I suppose so.
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@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath
Can we have your current stance on the Fabric of Existence being Qualitatively Superior to the Space Beyond?
Can we have your current stance on the Fabric of Existence being Qualitatively Superior to the Space Beyond?
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I think when humans enters higher realm or something in fiction, fiction leads to them pertaining their forms usually to lead the story and things. Just like how characters in trinity seven when leaves the universe to space between they keep their form and size same but universes looks and become small snowballs to them.
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▪︎ I get that for Space beyond but I'm asking if there's Scan or statement the tunnel contains the Space Beyond.
▪︎ so they just skip the space beyond and move directly into the fabric of existence? Why assume it contains the Space Beyond then? And are they larger than it if we believe the space beyond exists in the tunnel?
▪︎ I don't understand how the 3rd answer proves or answers anything.
▪︎ shown when maltraut fell, if they directly landed into the universe then the fabric of existence is simply connected to it like a tunnel not qualitative superior over it, heck space beyond wasn't even shown during the fall but directly to the universe.
1. Space Beyond wasn't shown
2. It's not infinitesimal like you claim and a headcanon.
I don't care about threads i didn't participate on just drop the scans since you already have them of it being called infinite.
Or link the exact message that proved it's infinite.
The structure Ben and Maltraut were in wasn't the space beyond but the Cylindrical tunnel, and you said it's infinitesimal in the tunnel walls something you haven't proved since I asked several times.
Can you prove it in Ben 10?
I would like to answer that but this isn't a DC thread.
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@Firestorm808
This matter has been brought up by a few people at this point. I think it's being brushed over far too heavily here. Your argument depends on the Space Beyond being an infinitesimal part of the Fabric of Existence, but it's evidently not clear why you believe this is the case. WIthout a clear basis for this premise, I can't agree with you.
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- Per Elizhaa, if an infinitely large space (The Space Beyond) is contained inside of a finite box (The Fabric of Existence), then qualitative transcendence is at play here. We meet this criteria.
- The Fabric of Existence is like 50 ft in diameter from Ben's perspective in the new realm, and the entire Space Beyond is in this Fabric of Existence.
- The Fabric of Existence contains the Space Beyond based on the facts and logic below.
- One step outside the universe is the Space Beyond.
- Using a Time Beast Egg allows the user to move from the Universe and exit the Fabric of Existence. The reverse also exists. Ben's and Maltruant's ship went into the fabric of existence and returned to the universe.
- Maltruant was not only pushed along with Ben's ship with a Time Beast Egg, but he also had a second Time Beast egg on him.
- Going inside the Fabric of Existence means going in the direction of the universe. Since the universe is inside the Space Beyond, it's only logical that the Space Beyond is inside the Fabric of Existence.
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@Aachintya31 change my vote to agree 
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You seem to be misunderstanding my question. The Realm of the Timestream is probably at least 6-D via the Fabric of Existence being just a finite aspect of it, making the Realm of the Timestream qualitatively superior to the Fabric of Existence. This does fit with Elizhaa's statements, and I'm okay with that. But that's not the matter I'm concerned about.
The argument that the Fabric of Existence is qualitatively superior to the Space Beyond is the part I'm questioning. I'm asking where any size comparison between the two comes from - for all I know, the Space Beyond is equal in size to the Fabric of Existence, and the Fabric of Existence is made up entirely of the Space Beyond. Knowing that the Fabric of Existence contains the Space Beyond doesn't show in itself that the Fabric of Existence is qualitatively superior. I need elaboration on this point - how do we know the Fabric of Existence is larger?
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▪︎ I asked to prove the space beyond to be infinite, you can't.
▪︎ I also asked to prove fabric of existence is contained in it which you haven't or can't just prove it.
Stop saying you meet the criteria when you haven't proved your claims, if you do we'd all have agreed with you, some things are yet to be proven.
You haven't proved space beyond is in the fabric of existence just both are outside the universe which the space beyond contains the 2-A universe and even so why should assume containing.
▪︎ first point proves space beyond contains the universe not fabric of existence containing the space beyond.
▪︎ That's an anti feat they don't just boom the characters directly to the Fabric of existence cause we see maltraut fall from the fabric of existence into the universe plus this doesn't prove fabric of existence contains it but is linked to the universe since they directly fall into it from it's tunnel like structure.
▪︎ doesn't prove fabric of existence contains the Space Beyond.
▪︎ the fabric of existence according to you is outside the space beyond that contains the universe, that's headcanon the space beyond containing the universe doesn't make the fabric of existence contains the universe if not stated or shown for all we know it connects directly to the universe and even skips the space beyond.
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Is the Fabric of existence ever stated to be infinite? I know of the timestream since maltraut said it is omniverse series but unsure of fabric of existence ever called infinite, besides @ProfessorKukui4Life or someone said timestream was used to prove 2-A, how can it be 2-A and 6-D at the same time?
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Okay, so we're in agreement so far that at least the new Realm is 6-D.
If we take another look at the Fabric of Existence, we see that it is composed of multiple connected dark circular membranes. It's not one homogenous thing, there is structure to it. The Space Beyond is one big infinite black space. If you shrank it to be a piece, it would just be a black spot of sorts.
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Can you bring statement it's called infinite, visuals can't tell us when something is infinite.Okay, so we're in agreement so far that at least the new Realm is 6-D.
If we take another look at the Fabric of Existence, we see that it is composed of multiple connected dark circular membranes. It's not one homogenous thing, there is structure to it. The Space Beyond is one big infinite black space. If you shrank it to be a piece, it would just be a black spot of sorts.
Personal statements and no scans, why won't Ben 10 always go through a downgrade weekly when things that aren't credible are used.
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In the very scan you provided regarding the form of the Space Beyond, you contradicted this claim. As a reminder, earlier in this thread, this is the scan you provided of what the Space Beyond looks like.
This would not simply be depicted as a "black spot" if scaled up in such a form. In fact, it actually seems to rather resemble what the Fabric of Existence is depicting. Again, by your scan - the two are quite similar.
Furthermore, even if the Space Beyond was theoretically entirely dark from end to end (which visibly isn't the case), the colours used to represent the Fabric of Reality are entirely warranted to be adjusted under artistic liberties. In fact, it appears they are. This is shown here, for one instance. Neither arguing that the Fabric of Reality unquestionably follows this particular pattern, nor arguing that the Space Beyond could not demonstrate this pattern, holds water.
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Low 1-C/5-D isn't debunkable for now, the verse is fine really, Ben 10 not in wiki would make the forum feel empty imo.
Also, I suddenly feel ill few hours ago and could barely read everything Dargrath wrote above so i won't be able to participate in this thread for now but will be fine by tomorrow, I hope.
LuciferX
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Low 1-C is due to Universe being 2A which seems like an absurd scale to me. Calling associated dimensions "infinite" are mere hyperboles and there is no way a universe would be 2A, at best would be universal+ to 2-C level.
A universe cannot be an infinite multiverse. It's hilarious.
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So again, my question is why was the timestream used as evidence for 2-A at all in the first place if it’s a different thing?
Because the cosmology thread determined we kept 2-A because of the timestream.
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yes it can
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MCU, dragonball, dinosaur king, ID, Trinity seven says hello.
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the time stream was a part of the reason, paradox's statement about how "ad infinitum" timelines exists, and in how much already exist, plus WoG confirming infinite universes is another part of it
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Dinosaur King doesn’t have a macrocosm type cosmology from what I recall.
I agree though that a universe can of course be considered a macrocosm
All of those other points were deemed not enough though. “Ad Infinitum” we dealt with many times as just being 2-B and WoG is useless without something in the actual show backing it up. Hence why there was a lot of back and forth over the use of tweets.
The timestream is the only thing in the show that actually backed those up as evidence, so we agreed on 2-A for the multiverse because of it. If the Timestreams supposed to support 2-A, then you are acknowledging it’s to be a 2-A structure.
Something can’t be both 2-A and then suddenly become a higher dimensional construct at the same time.
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they weren't tho? the combination of all of them was agreed for 2-A, ad infinitum was agreed to mean infinite in the context it was used, ant thw wog supported all of it
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if endless is acceptable for 2-A now i don't see how adinfinitum can't be used for 2-A with context
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Show me where that was agreed on please
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At a glance I’m pretty certain ad-infinitum and endless are not the same thing as one means no limit while the other means just going on forever, and the latter is pretty textbook 2-B
And we are pretty specific as to what terms means what.
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That is unfortunate, but I understand what you mean.In the very scan you provided regarding the form of the Space Beyond, you contradicted this claim. As a reminder, earlier in this thread, this is the scan you provided of what the Space Beyond looks like.
This would not simply be depicted as a "black spot" if scaled up in such a form. In fact, it actually seems to rather resemble what the Fabric of Existence is depicting. Again, by your scan - the two are quite similar.
Furthermore, even if the Space Beyond was theoretically entirely dark from end to end (which visibly isn't the case), the colours used to represent the Fabric of Reality are entirely warranted to be adjusted under artistic liberties. In fact, it appears they are. This is shown here, for one instance. Neither arguing that the Fabric of Reality unquestionably follows this particular pattern, nor arguing that the Space Beyond could not demonstrate this pattern, holds water.
In the end, we at least confirmed that we have a qualitatively superior realm, and that's fine enough for me to conclude this thread on.
@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath
To reiterate, are you guys fine with the new realm being qualitatively superior?
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It kinda depends unless you have a proof to debunk it... but ad-infinitum does sometimes means endless/infinity, Reiner adressed this in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-a-cosmology-proposal-accepted.143443/
it was a response to GyroNutz and in Ben 10 case, the former was accepted.
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This got accepted because of other evidences being used in combination with it such as the timestream, which is problematic as the latter is now supposed to be higher dimensional.
I’m talking about the ad-infinitum point specifically
EDIT: To clarify, I don’t want to derail too much from the threads original purpose, but this IS going to be an issue if the timestream, which was used to help put the verse at 2-A to begin with, is now supposed to be becoming 6-D and whatnot.
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