Zamasu seems to make sense with AP and Durability if there's one thing this movie did right is told us when Celestialsapiens aren't using their powers to the fullest potential and Alien V and Atomic-X are both partial Celestialsapien proofs of it. I agree with Zamasu.
Aggregor functions differently since he can absorb all of someone's DNA instead of half of it and he also absorbs power and powers so he'd have 1/10th the power of a celestialsapien and all of his powers regardless.
Alien X can push against a galactic-sized Galactic Gladiator's hand, so this is either inconsistent or Galactic Gladiator is toying with him. Unless you accounted for this with the "with abilities" thing?
Agreed
His range is fine as is, the only thing that could be mentioned is that the Forge and his pocket dimension should also be outside the multiverse, if everyone agrees to it.
Not if he wants to toy with Four Arms in a way that says "you can't even touch me".
We agreed to not use this in the latest downgrade thread since it's inconsistent, especially since Alien X's life-force should be inside his pocket dimension (considering Ben's physical body is inside of it) and it's thus contradicted by the show. And if you want to go all the way with this statement then you're re-upgrading him to 2-B since that means he could decide to amplify his dura to 2-B (even a slice of energy of a group of Celestialsapiens bonding their powers to tank a countless 2-B destruction feat is still 2-B).
That's contradicted by Alien X surviving the Annihilaargh without making a decision (even if you argue Rook's memory now, I can probably still counter + his dura should scale to his non-decisive striking which is low 2-C for piercing the Contumelia barrier).
Celestialsapiens are constant throughout the Omniverse. They exist in their own bubble seperate from the rest of the other universes. There's no way Reboot!Alien X is seperate from the Prime version if we are to believe the Reboot and OS exist in the same Omniverse.
So I have some stuff to say about this. First off what Ben 10 wiki said is false, UA Ben had his watch right in at least one scene, meaning it's an animation error and Alien Force Ben recognized Alien X but just said "that's not what we call him", which means they gave the villain using Alien X a different name. Alien Force Ben also mentions Max's death which means he's referencing canon events in Alien Force since Ben believed Max to be death for one season. As such there is no reason to not see them as Prime Bens as the WoG and the episode themselves imply (something Ovens agreed on), the only problem would be that there could be no multiple Ben Primes from multiple timelines, however cosmology got retconned so who knows maybe they can now. Now cosmology getting retconned also isn't an issue since we know from Chadzmuth that Celestialsapiens change the multiverse all the time so it's likely this isn't the first time this happened and could have even happened at any point during the classic series' run, yet we never saw any change in power for Ben. Now if we are not allowed to cross-scale between timelines then we would have to create up to 7 (!) keys for certain characters since all the classic series' shows are now treated as alternate timelines + the video games (Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction) + the reboot + Ben 23's and Gwen 10's timelines and so on. Not to mention that we currently already cross-scale between timelines on pages such as Gutrot's and a previous version of Vilgax's page, as well as the aforementioned tier 5 Way Big scaling coming from a video game. The reason why we do this is because the multiverse is essentially like a big tree with several branches, however if you go in the past far enough of a certain timeline to before a certain branching point then you essentially end up with the same character as when doing the same in another timeline, this doesn't mean that they'd suddenly grow or lower in power since that'd make no sense. This reasoning is also backed up by several CRT's.
ok
Don’t strawman me dude. I never even came close to using that statement, only the ones that were supported by the show.
The context of the Q&A was AP while Alien X's case is EE resistance.
Since the question was most likely based on events within the show, I doubt that it was a different context.
He was probably still holding off GG's hand when it was galactic-sized considering he continued to do so even when Ben turned around to ask Bellicus and Serena for help. People like Darkseid are big iirc when performing their speed feats but it still counts since it's essentially the force necessary to move yourself at a certain speed which is required, which should increase as your size increases. The fact that Alien X was smaller than GG but still had comparable speed also proves this point. I'm good with EE resistance.
Nothing is scaled from crossovers in Ben 10, since that'd imply it's from a different verse or continuity, they're scaled from the very fact that they're alternate timelines. Which means at one point they were the same timeline because of the branching cosmology of the verse, that is all. But it would also apply to the Reboot.
That was before I figured out that statement supported my claim
I mean if you wanna be technical, Ben was aware of the impending doom and the context likely implies AP.
Alien X pushing against his hand out isn’t a speed feat. He’s not reacting to anything
Darkseid is a horrible example because he scales to other characters with tons of MFTL+ feats.
He was smaller but still big enough to be seen. It’s like comparing a fly to a human.
I can buy that for the original series, since the different versions there interact with each other, but the reboot versions do not seem to have the same power levels, going by their feats and that Alien X was displayed as far weaker.
... So you only use a WoG when it suits your needs?That was before I figured out that statement supported my claim
I mean it looks like EE, there's no denying that.
This was for LS.
Irrelevant, it was about whether large size speed feats can scale to regular speed, which it can.
Sure but the fly-sized human has the same speed as the regular human. Thus proving size doesn't matter.
I mean they also interact with each other in the reboot so? There's another special where Reboot Ben interacts with another Ben 10,000 for instance and he's called an alternate future.
I’ve said in the past the WoG is useful if the context is there.
Ok.
If you’re a regular human and your only power is to grow to the size of a galaxy, then obviously you’re gonna move at FTL speeds by sheer size.
That’s because flies are still relative to human speed. The difference is between human sized and fly sized vs human sized and galaxy sized is a significantly greater. If your MFTL+ comes from only being the size of a galaxy, then obviously it shouldn’t be MFTL+ in base because your size causes you to move at those speeds.
And why are the Ben 10, Ben 10 Alien Force, Ben 10 Ultimate alien and Ben 10 Omniverse exempt from those rules? The reboot quite literally treats them all as different timelines from each other?
Also what about stuff like Power Rangers and the Arrowverse, those are all different shows in the same multiverse and we can cross-scale between shows, no problem there? Also the original Ben 10 and the Reboot have the same writers, meanwhile Alien Force and onwards had different writers and plot ideas for the most part, so if plot requirements and writer preferences are an argument then only the original Ben 10 and the Reboot should cross-scale (so no alien force, ultimate alien and omniverse).
Ovens also agreed with them being alternate timelines, this isn't even about maximizing tiers, this is about applying something we should have done a long time ago considering how the Ben 10 multiverse works. We only got confirmation of them being alternate timelines recently though, hence why we waited till after the special featuring the different Bens aired.
Depends, bigger characters are usually portrayed as slower in fiction.
They're relative because they're lighter so they need less force to fly at a certain speed. Same applies to Alien X.
Alien X decisive and non-decisive stats seperation; scaling reboot Alien X to classic Alien X for there being only one of him in the omniverse; scaling reboot aliens to classic aliens due to being alternate timelines; upgrading reboot aliens based on Alien V and AntiVilgax terraforming the earth which still needs to be calced.
As far as I understand they were originally treated as being part of the same timeline, or only appeared within the same show where they interacted with each other, whereas the reboot has different writers and entirely separate storylines.
I am referring to different versions of Superman, Goku, and Sonic, for example. They all blatantly have very different power levels. The Arrowverse characters also constantly cross over with each other and their shows are being released concurrently. I am not sure what is happening with Power Rangers, as our pages featuring them are a complete mess, and might have to be deleted some day, but it is much safer and more reliable to scale all separate continuities from their own feats.
From what I saw of the special episode, the Ben 10 wiki got it right that the characterisation and several details did not fit, and it treated a mostly coherent storyline featuring the same character as different timelines.
Please explain how there is only one version of Alien X that all Bens from different timelines transform into.
The reboot has Man of Action as their writers, which are the original show writers. The reboot also features several classic villains (and Ben's aliens are mostly the same) and it's logical that alternate timelines bring different plotlines with them. The mega evolution timelines vs the regular timelines in Pokémon come to mind.
Those are all from different media and they have no confirmation that those other versions are alternate timelines to the original.
Ben 10 wiki was incorrect on Alien Force Ben not recognizing Alien X and Ultimate Alien Ben's watch was just an animation error. Nothing else was brought up as evidence by Ben 10 wiki and since when do we even rely on other wiki's in the first place? Those different timeline versions of that character then got confirmed to be the original ones we grew up with. There were previous hints towards this by Duncan saying that the OG Omnitrix has the same features as the Reboot one or that Reboot Ben has access to all his original aliens or that all aliens are the same between original and reboot.
Here (this is currently applied on his page as acausality type 2), considering Celestialsapiens come from the Forge of Creation which is outside the multiverse it wouldn't make sense for there to be multiple versions of the same character anyways.
I would also appreciate some specific summaries.
Yes! It does depend. And in this case where speed is associated with size, clearly it scales to them when they’re bigger, especially when he’s the size of a literal galaxy.
Alien x was able to turn in circles (on a galaxy level range) numerous of times to create a galaxy sized black hole so that still scales to his speed therfore MFTL+ speed
The latest Reboot special had the return of all Bens from the classic shows + Gwen from the Gwen 10 timeline, they were treated as Bens from different timelines but WoG confirmed they were in fact the 4 official versions of Ben from the 4 original shows, supported by Alien Force Ben bringing up events that happened in his show. The proposal is to scale Reboot Ben's regular aliens to 10 year-old Ben's aliens from the original show, similar to how we already scale between alternate timelines such as Omniverse Ben and Ben 23's timeline as shown in this page or between a canon video game and Ultimate Alien Ben as shown in this page. The episode itself portrayed Alien X as much weaker but it was also filled with PIS since even with the powers Alien X showed in the special he would have been able to take out all of the Bens with ease and even stomped each one of them individually.
He was still relatively big (at least the size of a star), have you not been paying attention?
It's stated on his profile that he created a galaxy sized black hole which is done via MFTL+ speed so my point still stands, you are the one who need to pay attention, and yes GG was as big as a galaxy during that moment, you should also pay attention to the show tbh, Alien x was able to dodge and react to GG who has MFTL+ attack speed
He did that when he was only slightly smaller than GG, who was Galaxy sized. Of course AX would move that fast when he’s that big.
In this entire part of the discussion I’ve been saying GG is galaxy sized. What was the point of saying this?
Alien X was normal sized but GG was the size of an asteroid at the time. Reacting to that isn’t MFTL+.
Then again this proves that AX has MFTL+ even in his base.
You said that GG wasn't galaxy sized when AX created the super massive Black hole.
It has nothing to do with that, AX has MFTL+ attack speed due to him moving galaxies very damm fast when creating the universe and both AX and GG were reacting and dodging each other attacks
No it doesn’t. Being MFTL+ because you’re close to the size of a galaxy doesn’t mean you’d be that fast in base.
I never said that in this thread.
Fine.
