Ben 10 - Alien X downgrade y’all saw coming a mile away!

[Aachintya31]

Regardless, Kevin was proven wrong by Paradox

Ofcourse Kevin knews about past and future .How does it disproves his statement that "Universe is everything".

Ben said himself he was too late to save the universe so he made a different one. If he merely reversed time, that would not be AP at all and the Mr. Smoothie mascot would've looked the same. Ben can't stop the Annihilarrgh. That's the point I'm making. He's incapable of doing it. Showing that Alien X's power, within his own verse, is not limitless.

That comment was made a few episodes later after he became aware he is late. Nobody couldn't do something which already happened

What do you mean beyond the the limit of the screen? Tf?

We can't see an object move at infinite distance on a 16*9 screen.If Alien X is recreating Galaxies via moving.Not all galaxies were shown to move at a finite distance

It still never activated Alien X and Prime Ben still died. Go figure, Ben could do nothing against it.

Why would it ? if it was supposed to happen

 

[Reiner04]

Evidence relating to the topic at hand can still be discussed even if it isn’t in the OP.

Entire damn franchise is related to the Topic in hands? And if it's needed to be discussed then tell include it in the OP with the reasoning that why Rex dimension is not a part of the universe. As it has been accepted as the part of the universe.
Simple isn't it?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Entire damn franchise is related to the Topic in hands?

Yes, Doctor Holiday's statement is relevant evidence to be addressed. Duh.

And if it's needed to be discussed then tell include it in the OP with the reasoning that why Rex dimension is not a part of the universe. As it has been accepted as the part of the universe.

Doctor Holiday apparently isn't a reliable source for the cosmology's size in the first place, so Rex's dimension being a part of the universe wouldn't lead to 2-A.

 

[Reiner04]

Yes, Doctor Holiday's statement is relevant evidence to be addressed. Duh.

Doctor Holiday apparently isn't a reliable source for the cosmology's size in the first place, so Rex's dimension being a part of the universe wouldn't lead to 2-A.

As I said and will say again, doctor holiday, Rex dimension is non are the part of the OP. So I don't ******* care about any opinions on it, thank you very much.
Let's not derail anymore.

 

[Forthegood]

All these statements are accepted as the word of God literally tells us that the verse has a multiverse which basically supports holidays statement and YES Joe Kelly statement relates to Ben 10 (I will come back to add this as he said this relates to Ben 10)

 

[Forthegood]

And before someone brings up wog isn't canon in Ben 10 Dwayne explicitly stated that what HE SAYS is not considered canon and I have another statement from Duncan making his stance as WOG

 

[Forthegood]

 

[Reiner04]

Non of the trio was aware of universes or crosstime bruh?


Proceed.


Unlimited power refute right in your OP, and this is discrediting it.
Now why greatest power in the universe is his reality wrapping or hax?.


So all that means failsafe is doesn't work or not response to something as metaphysical as 2A boi.

These are my counters for OP, if anyone wants to address.

I don't see anything in the OP that worth my agreement. So I disagree.

 

[Aachintya31]

All that means is that Ben has no soul hax resistance.

Ghostfreak wasn't able to kill Ben's soul While Possessing him in AF. He was later able to kill the king's soul inside Dr.Victor. I doubt omnitrix has no resistance for soul hax. But why it matters ?

Pointing out the difference between singular and plural words is not a nitpick. Regardless it's not unlimited because it was shown a limit on more than one occasion.

It is nitpick because the thing you are pointing is presented just right after in the show.

Ben said himself he was too late to save the universe so he made a different one. If he merely reversed time, that would not be AP at all and the Mr. Smoothie mascot would've looked the same. Ben can't stop the Annihilarrgh. That's the point I'm making. He's incapable of doing it. Showing that Alien X's power, within his own verse, is not limitless.

Ben's Jacket was changed despite him not being recreated .Mascot point is moot because Rook's memories contained the original mascot logo.

Doctor Holiday apparently isn't a reliable source for the cosmology's size in the first place, so Rex's dimension being a part of the universe wouldn't lead to 2-A.

I remember People conceded to Atleast-2B ,possibly 2-A, due to Ben's statement of millions of dimension in hero times two which is yet another crossover with ben alongwith holiday's statement.

Why would Ledgerdomain existing in the universe mean that every other dimension has to exist in it as well? Where's the proof.

Every other dimension which not an alternate ben dimension was proved to be inside the universe in the recent earlier thread .You have to prove why it wouldn't be in the show.

I showed you a scan of him on the ship in the same episode. Are you not reading?

i changed before you commented.Anyways my bad.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

As I said and will say again, doctor holiday, Rex dimension is non are the part of the OP. So I don't ******* care about any opinions on it, thank you very much.
Let's not derail anymore.

As I said that's not a derail. Doctor Holiday's statement was used as supporting evidence for the universe being 2-A, so it's fine to discuss.

All these statements are accepted as the word of God literally tells us that the verse has a multiverse which basically supports holidays statement and YES Joe Kelly statement relates to Ben 10 (I will come back to add this as he said this relates to Ben 10)

The multiverse is infinite, yeah. We're discussing if the universe contains infinite dimensions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't think I need to explain why those twitter statements are definitely not acceptable forms of evidence either. We've literally done this in several previous Alien X threads and have explained several times that twitter comment statements are not allowed. Period.

We have a rule for this for a reason.

 

[Forthegood]

You know what's funny if we go by Joe Kelly statement it basically confirms the current rating for the Ben 10 Omniverse that the Universe contains a Multiverse (as shown in the previous accepted CRTS) that the Universe itself is 2A in structure

 

[Lovemovies14]

The multiverse is infinite, yeah. We're discussing if the universe contains infinite dimensions.

One of them literally says there are as many universes in Ben 10 as there are in the multiverse.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

One of them literally says there are as many universes in Ben 10 as there are in the multiverse.

In that screenshot he's referring to Ben 10 as a franchise, not specifically the Prime Universe.

 

[Forthegood]

I don't think I need to explain why those twitter statements are definitely not acceptable forms of evidence either. We've literally done this in several previous Alien X threads and have explained several times that twitter comment statements are not allowed. Period.

We have a rule for this for a reason.

“There is no other source for this information than your good friends in MOA central" you know what that tells you? It tells you that they deem Twitter as a central place where you can get Q and A from the writer's it's basically the same thing as their QANDA page. And not to mention that these statements solidify and debunks OP argument about the universes not being intertwined.

 

[Reiner04]

For the god sake, either agree with OP reasoning or counter that reasoning, if one think that reasonings or evidences not given by the OP is valid then make a damn crt. This crt is for OP reasoning not world wide reasonings.
We are just making this crt mess.

 

[Robo432343]

Firestorm should comment here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

“There is no other source for this information than your good friends in MOA central" you know what that tells you? It tells you that they deem Twitter as a central place where you can get Q and A from the writer's it's basically the same thing as their QANDA page. And not to mention that these statements solidify and debunks OP argument about the universes not being intertwined.

The statements being able to debunk the OP doesn't mean they're suddenly acceptable. Like I said, we have a rule explicitly forbidding these kinds of social media comments as they're nothing more than answers to leading questions used to extract specific information that the creator (if thats even them personally using the account) isn't going to comment seriously on. Especially if they're pointless battle boarding questions for powerscaling purposes (like DB fans hounding Akira Toriyama's social media for an inkling of "feedback" on whether Goku can destroy universes or not.)

The first 2 screenshots are especially not acceptable. They're literally one worded answers, no detail or depth given, to leading questions. Im not sure what you deem as an acceptable response, but you need far better evidence and credibility than a simple "Yep" answer to get such a drastic change like infinite worlds accepted.

This would be a different story if this, say, an actual official interview. But that's obviously not the case here.

 

[Reiner04]

Oke then after all this once again my reasons to not agree with OP.

1- paradox event of parallel timeline was retconned later on.

2- unlimited powers debunk Doesn't mean anything when
there is already a statement of limitless power.


3- nlf on failsafe when it's clear that it's not perfect.

4- there is no proof that greatest power in the universe stands for hax not literal power.

All the reasoning that has been provided in the OP are wrong and any reasoning or evidence aside from the OP needs another CRT for that, so no derailing.

 

[Forthegood]

The statements being able to debunk the OP doesn't mean they're suddenly acceptable. Like I said, we have a rule explicitly forbidding these kinds of social media comments as they're nothing more than answers to leading questions used to extract specific information that the creator (if thats even them personally using the account) isn't going to comment seriously on. Especially if they're pointless battle boarding questions for powerscaling purposes (like DB fans hounding Akira Toriyama's social media for an inkling of "feedback" on whether Goku can destroy universes or not.)

But the thing is what they have said is both addressed in canon and it has nothing to do with power scaling it's further explanation on how the term Multiverse is used in Ben 10 especially when this was stated Multiple times that the verse is a multiverse and Joe Kelly is basically giving further backing to it.

The first 2 screenshots are especially not acceptable. They're literally one worded answers, no detail or depth given, to leading questions. Im not sure what you deem as an acceptable response, but you need far better evidence and credibility than a simple "Yep" answer to get such a drastic change like infinite worlds accepted.

this is irrelevant as the first one goes in depth and the other one is more of a backing to the statement because 1 statement wouldn't be enough to solidify the evidence.

 

[PrinceofPein]

All these statements are accepted as the word of God literally tells us that the verse has a multiverse which basically supports holidays statement and YES Joe Kelly statement relates to Ben 10 (I will come back to add this as he said this relates to Ben 10)

We don't accept Twitter statements like these, especially the first two as they are questions made solely for powerscaling.
And the last one literally said "different physicist have different ideas, from 12 - infinite"
Meaning no confirmed size.

 

[Reiner04]

Oke then after all this once again my reasons to not agree with OP.

1- paradox event of parallel timeline was retconned later on.

2- unlimited powers debunk Doesn't mean anything when
there is already a statement of limitless power.

3- nlf on failsafe when it's clear that it's not perfect.

4- there is no proof that greatest power in the universe stands for hax not literal power.

All the reasoning that has been provided in the OP are wrong and any reasoning or evidence aside from the OP needs another CRT for that, so no derailing.

@Maverick_Zero_X @ProfessorKukui4Life @Emirp sumitpo @Zamasu_Chan will anyone who finds the OP Reasoning good will proceed with the counters?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But the thing is what they have said is both addressed in canon and it has nothing to do with power scaling it's further explanation on how the term Multiverse is used in Ben 10 especially when this was stated Multiple times that the verse is a multiverse and Joe Kelly is basically giving further backing to it.

Except, we know Ben 10 is a multiverse already? That was never the problem here. The show's made it perfectly crystal clear that there is a multiverse.

The issue is using these evidences to cement the multiverse being infinite.

this is irrelevant as the first one goes in depth and the other one is more of a backing to the statement because 1 statement wouldn't be enough to solidify the evidence.

The statement that proves the existence of a multiverse doesn't matter here because we already knew this for Ben 10 in the first place. What's being debated is it being an infinite one, like I said.

And the other comment doesn't do any better than the one worded answers. The rule already cites that being "longer" doesnt automatically make it more reliable, and the fact that Duncan's statement says there are different physicists with different ideas on parallel worlds already makes his answer in and of itself skeptical on it's reliability.

 

[Reiner04]

True, twitter statements aren't just taken as it is, regardless, Twitter statements aren't necessary here, so I'll again say to not bring it up, they only have been used to prove multiverse is 2a which is still has been accepted, current topic is universe not any where near to Multiverse. So it's just derailing.

Can we stop with Twitter stuff?​

 

[Forthegood]

We don't accept Twitter statements like these, especially the first two as they are questions made solely for powerscaling.
And the last one literally said "different physicist have different ideas, from 12 - infinite"
Meaning no confirmed size.

Understandable but yet we can't ignore the fact that the statement confirms and solidifies the statements all around as writer's statements can only be used to somehow to back up a statement.

“Different phyisicst have different ideas" don't know why you mentioned this because it's irrelevant what he says is that different phyisicst has different ideas on what a multiverse is. Eh? This again has backing to Doctor Holidays statement and the very first statement it already tells you the idea.

 

[Forthegood]

Okay I'll stop derailing lol still disagree with the downgrade

 

[Reiner04]

His infinite speed justification is dumb as hell. I shouldn’t even need to go into why shit shouldn’t scale to attack speed. Look at 2:22 - 2:33. We see balls of light become galaxies after traveling a very finite distance. We then see the earth and stars merely spawn in. This is not something crossing an infinite distance over a finite amount of time. At best those moving lights are MFTL+, which is redundant because he has MFTL+ movement that likely yield higher results. It's redundant to have both so replacing his whole speed justification with this new one should be that way to go. After it gets evaluated of course.

Just how in the world this debunk didn't caught my eyes, lmao,
"We didn't see balls going to infinite distance but just finite"
You wanted to see "them going infinite distance" in 16:7 screen and 3 minutes? Bruh.
What has been suggested within given screen will be assumed to work in the same way for all of infinite universes unless you prove that there is something different happened beyond the TV screen.
Occam's razor.

I disagree with this twisted debunk as well.

 

[Vasco]

Overall, there are two instances of Alien X not being able to overcome the Annihilarrgh, one instance where the Chronosapien Time Bomb straight up negs Ben failsafe, which would include Alien X, and even having half of Alien X's DNA doesn’t make you so much of a physical powerhouse anywhere near AX's level. If Alien X can't cover come two weapons that Azmuth and Paradox are aware of, then their statements are merely wrong or even hyperbolic.

I agree with everything in the OP except this,if this guys are the most intelligent in the franchise...I don't think the hyperbolic is a good word here.

 

[Greenshifter]

Now I could counter most of what Zamasu wrote down here, the question is whether I SHOULD . That said I disagree with Legerdomain being a part of the universe. Low 2-C Alien X baybeeee.

 

[Reiner04]

Bonus: Ben 10K says that there's only one person in the universe that can help them against Maltruant, which is present Ben, despite Star Beard being on the ship at the time. This implies that regular Celestialsapiens aren't physically as strong as Alien X, making the "greatest power" statements more unlikely to be raw power. Just an interesting point I wanted to throw out there.

Bonus debunk: Ben > celestial sapiens confirmed. Just an interesting point I wanted to throw out.

 

[Quantu]

Just how in the world this debunk didn't caught my eyes, lmao,
"We didn't see balls going to infinite distance but just finite"
You wanted to see "them going infinite distance" in 16:7 screen and 3 minutes? Bruh.
What has been suggested within given screen will be assumed to work in the same way for all of infinite universes unless you prove that there is something different happened beyond the TV screen.
Occam's razor.

I disagree with this twisted debunk as well.

Occam's razor would suggest after the initial ones, they all spawned in, as shown on the screen

 

[Sus]

Zamasu really going a 1v100

 

[Reiner04]

Occam's razor would suggest after the initial ones, they all spawned in, as shown on the screen

Uh? Is it refute or adding credit to my argument?

 

[Reiner04]

Zamasu really going a 1v100

Going against 100 is easier when none is a refute to the argument than going against one who has refuted. I am saying so through experience.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Emirp sumitpo
@Sir_Ovens
@Maverick_Zero_X

Will reply more later.

Paradox took the group to a possible future where he failed to save the world. Possible futures / Future events are not part of the 'everything in the universe.' It is meant to be in the present context.

Whether Alien X can literally do anything or not is irrelevant to the AP discussion. Being too late to stop has no direct relation to AP. Even if the destruction were stopped halfway, you would still need to replace what was destroyed. By plot, everything was destroyed, so Alien X replaced it. It doesn't really matter.

Even after the events of (January 19, 2013) Ben Again, where the Chrono Navigator is introduced, the writer re-affirms their "omnipotence" within the series power scaling (September 13, 2013 - Q&A With Matt Wayne), supporting all the other times it has been mentioned in the series.

The mechanics of a fail-safe were introduced in the series finale. Feedback was the initial transformation that reeled back in the activation. From there, they did a rule of cool making it so that all aliens made a cameo and were rotated through in appearance order before ending on Feedback again.

 

[Arceus0x]

Him having full control over Alien X when the Omnitrix gave him Alien X against the Galactic Gladiator. Regardless tho Omnitrix failsafe never gave Ben Alien X when the CTB went off, it was only able to attatch to an alternate Ben. I don't see how this helps your case at all.

Even the omnitrix couldn't save him from CBT

 

[Reiner04]

Even the omnitrix couldn't save him from CBT

Yeah, failsafe is not perfect, relying on it for absolutely every situation is straight NLF.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, failsafe is not perfect, relying on it for absolutely every situation is straight NLF.

you did click the link right?

 

[Reiner04]

Specially when it has been confirmed 2 times that trio was not aware of the parallel world's, I don't see any reason to cherrypick a plot hole or wrong or whatever. Especially when it was first time paradox was introduced and despite he has met ben dozens of times yet it was shown that it was first time when he got his name "paradox" as confirmed by himself. Episode lefts so many questions and plot holes.

So take it either way that trio going to parallel future was plot hole or retconned, it'll not change the fact that how story turns out in the future discredit that as whole and consistency matters.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Emirp sumitpo
@Sir_Ovens
@Maverick_Zero_X

Regarding infinite attack speed, galaxies are very far apart. Galaxies outside the Milky Way are shown to move from Alien X to their location. Earth is in the Milky Way with Alien X. Nothing needs to move from Alien X for the energy burst to remake the Milky Way. The perspective we see of Earth and the surrounding stars is the same perspective at all the other Galaxy planet formations. There isn't a reason they should be different in method from each other. As previously mentioned, how can you practically portray the energy balls moving across the infinite universe in animation? The cinematic of the galaxies they show is enough to show the methodology used. Why would it be different for the Milky Way and not every other Galaxy? To make that distinction, you can barely even see other galaxies from an eyeball perspective outside of Earth.