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Ben 10 Classic Series Revision Thread Part 1

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But that one shot of the moon with earth just means the moon is in the background. Either that or the moon in the Ben 10 verse is not that far.

If it was in the background so that distance is realistic,
And it was to scale, then the moon would have to appear much much smaller than it does right? @Zamasu_Chan

Actually (and correct me if Im wrong but) having 2 objects in the same frame should rule out lens distortion no?
 
image0.png

No moon is 238,900 miles away from earth but this close.
Also using those kind of images don’t prove much, the moon has been shown being even closer than that in Ben 10 from that perspective.
 
But that one shot of the moon with earth just means the moon is in the background. Either that or the moon in the Ben 10 verse is not that far.
Or that is just the way they have it, do you want them to show it incredibly far to where we either don’t see it on screen with the planet or barely see it on screen? I don’t see how that would constitute the Moon being closer to Earth than in real life, when it just the way they represent it.
 
Fam you can’t say that the earth and moon are right next to each other in that shot. That’s literally not 200k mi if they’re next to each other. I’m giving actual reasons but you’re just saying “uh no, it’s just like that.”
 
Btw the moon is definitely in the background in that shot because the moon is not that small compared to the earth.
 
Fam you can’t say that the earth and moon are right next to each other in that shot. That’s literally not 200k mi if they’re next to each other. I’m giving actual reasons but you’re just saying “uh no, it’s just like that.”
This is how they draw stuff, you can’t say it isn’t as far away as in real life, because of how it is drawn
 
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Fam you can’t say that the earth and moon are right next to each other in that shot. That’s literally not 200k mi if they’re next to each other. I’m giving actual reasons but you’re just saying “uh no, it’s just like that.”
I’m just displaying how they have celestial bodies drawn together, since Galvan Prime has been shown to be at least this distance, if not further. There is nothing to actually suggest that it isn’t the same distance in real life, you’re just stretching things at this point.
 
This is how big the moon is compared to earth. The moon in this shot makes it look smaller than the moon actually is. It’s literal common sense to say the moon is in the background.
 
This is how big the moon is compared to earth. The moon in this shot makes it look smaller than the moon actually is. It’s literal common sense to say the moon is in the background.
It is literally common sense to tell that it isn’t in the background. Like you can clearly tell it isn’t in the background. You can even see it curved, if you actually look. Especially with how the Earth looks, you can tell it isn’t in the background.
 
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This is how big the moon is compared to earth. The moon in this shot makes it look smaller than the moon actually is. It’s literal common sense to say the moon is in the background.
You also keep on bring up how this stuff should actually look, when obviously they don’t have everything to scale or perspective as perfectly as it can be. It is pretty unreasonable to try and downplay a verse like that, especially when the logic behind it is faulty.
 
Fam you can’t say that the earth and moon are right next to each other in that shot. That’s literally not 200k mi if they’re next to each other. I’m giving actual reasons but you’re just saying “uh no, it’s just like that.”
Btw the moon is definitely in the background in that shot because the moon is not that small compared to the earth.
Pot, kettle


https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-revision-thread.107981/post-3392319
 
So the moon changes distance between series now? I’m not with you anymore. All you’re doing is using circular reasoning saying it’s the artist’s mistake. Well guess what in DKCR it’s the animators fault for messing up the size of the moon. It’s also the animators fault in Asura’s Wrath for having small galaxies visible from earth.

Saying “animators made oopsie lul” is a literal excuse.
 
So the moon changes distance between series now? I’m not with you anymore. All you’re doing is using circular reasoning saying it’s the artist’s mistake. Well guess what in DKCR it’s the animators fault for messing up the size of the moon. It’s also the animators fault in Asura’s Wrath for having small galaxies visible from earth.

Saying “animators made oopsie lul” is a literal excuse
The only one doing the circular reasoning is you, showing the same things that have already been debunked like Galvan B looking how the Moon does here, all I did was show that the showing of the Moon has always been like that consistently similar to Galvan B, it would only be a good comparison of showing the distances if it was the same series, if you're going to be comparing the distances the way you did. Also of course the distance has been shown differently between series have you not watched the show, that is what happens when a new crew comes. Stop bringing irrelevant things in this that are in no way similar to what we are discussing, if you don't have any actual evidence of the distance not being at least the same as the Moon is from the Earth is, just concede. I've also never said that it is the artist mistake and no one said the animators made an oopsie, they just have the celestial bodies drawn like that, get over it, no need to be childish and get pressed over this. Also how is this an excuse, it is just common sense.
 
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Let me start off by saying that angsizing celestial bodies in cartoons isn't always accurate. Especially, if we look at the moon in ATLA.



Here are my results based on angsizing of this image.


  • Possible Galvan B Values:
    • Galvan B is 6x bigger than our moon.
      • Moon Radius = 1737.1 km
      • Moon Volume = 2.2e+10 km^3
      • 6x Moon Radius = 10422.6 km
    • Galvan B is Ganymede size
      • Ganymede Radius = 2634.1 km
      • Ganymede Volume = 7.66e+10 km^3
  • Angsizing
  • Distance from Angsizing
    • If Galvan B is Moon Size
      • Earth's Moon Radius = 1737.1 km = 1737100 m
      • Earth's Moon Distance = 384400000 m = 3.844e+8 m
      • Galvan B Distance = 2.1866e+7 m
    • If Galvan B is Ganymede Size
      • Galvan B Distance = 3.3157e+7 m
    • If Galvan B is 6x Moon Size
      • Galvan B Distance = 1.3119e+8 m
 
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Here are my results based on this image. Can we move on now?


  • Size = 86 px
  • Frame Height = 480 px
  • Galvan B Values:
    • Galvan B is 6x bigger than our moon.
      • Moon Radius = 1737.1 km
      • Moon Volume = 2.2e+10 km^3
      • 6x Moon Radius = 10422.6 km
    • Galvan B is Ganymede size
      • Ganymede Radius = 2634.1 km
      • Ganymede Volume = 7.66e+10 km^3
  • Diamondhead AP Calcs
    • Time = 4 seconds
    • Distance Angsizing Results
      • If Moon Size
        • Earth's Moon Radius = 1737.1 km = 1737100 m
        • Earth's Moon Distance = 384400000 m = 3.844e+8 m
        • Galvan B Distance = 2.1866e+7 m
      • If Ganymede Size
        • Galvan B Distance = 3.3157e+7 m
      • If 6x Moon Size
        • Galvan B Distance = 1.3119e+8 m
    • Results
      • 3.0714703867e+16 J = 7-B
      • 7.062494189e+16 J = 7-B
      • 1.1056282046e+16 J = 7-B
It's a downgrade from 7-A, but keep in mind that this is still Diamondhead's low-end since he didn't break from Malgax's punch.

No, because the distance is further than the Moon is to Earth, or at the very least the same distance. The calc is inaccurate, as there is no actual proof that the distance is shorter than that of the Earth and the Moon. Also the Timeframe is 5 seconds. Your calc is also a little hard to follow.
 
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I have it on the OP, but I have to rewatch both scenes before we confirm anything.

Back on topic, where are we regarding Tier 4 Atomix?
I downgraded Eatle in one of my replies (sorry Cookie).

Can you figure out of how many attacks Atomix would have used in his fight against Malgax (and possibly also the amount of attacks received) using as estimate based on the stuff we see on-screen? Maybe count a barrage of punches as one attack?
 
OS Heatblast fought Kevin no problem. Can OS Heatblast suddenly fight on par with AF Diamondhead and Vilgax?
No because there’s a 4 times multiplier between them while with Kevin only 2 times or less (because HB is a strong mid-tier). This does mean OV Heatblast can fight against AF Vilgax for a decent amount of time, which is supported by his other scaling.


Kevin had a difficult time against Kraab. The same Kraab who’s as strong as OS Diamondhead. AF Vilgax is far above OS Diamondhead because Ultomos >= OS Diamondhead and Vilgax stomped Ultimos
Actually his Ray of Rouleau which can blow apart AF DH’s crystals stomped Ultimos, heck you could argue his ray would stomp AF DH since we scale his crystals’ dura to his own dura (not that that makes a lot of sense). Then Vilgax punched Ultimos into the ground to finish him, which is where the at least comes from. I’m not saying Armored Kevin = AF Vilgax, I’m saying he downscales but can still hurt him.

OS XLR8 dodged all of his attacks.

Ultimates hold back, or else Sunny’s boyfriend Antonio wouldn’t be alive anymore (ult. Humungousaur fought him). Tho you have somewhat of a point that you could scale regular aliens to ultimates, thanks.

Skill increase for Humungousaur, knew there was something there, thanks.

You want to stick with consistency? How about that the premise of the show (Ben can solve the situation with any alien) doesn’t work when half of the aliens would get stomped in a fight, you’d essentially be yeeting half of the show (such as the Ben vs Albedo fight) if you don’t scale mid-tiers and top-tiers and it’s even our own interpretation who is a mid-tier and a top-tier. If you just put them in a different tier and act as if some mid-tier can’t hurt someone else in Ben 10 that makes like half their feats nonsensical and creates more problems than it solves.

Oh and for a final note, DH said “you’re in trouble Vilgax, I’ve had a lot of practice since then”. If he meant that he was stronger than him then he would have said so, instead he was referring to his skill.
 
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The thread doesn't seem to have much of a cohesive identity, to be entirely honest. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the OP is proposing and otherwise this has hosted a few minor debates on the legitimacy of a black hole feat, specifics on a calc, et cetera.
We have a lot to go through, doing everything individually would literally take months.
 
Apologies for sleeping on this thread for a while, lot of ground to cover.

I mean, this only works if we cherrypick examples of the Moon/Earth being drawn unrealistically close from space (which I think there's 1 or 2 from Omniverse), however we're kind of forgetting the optics of the planet/moon viewed from each other's surface. When viewed from the Moon, Earth is far, far more distant than Galvan is viewed from Galvan B, and the same is roughly consistent vice versa. While you can give me a few examples of bad optics for the Earth/Moon at best, every single example of Galvan Prime and Galvan B portrayed visually in the show have them far closer.

You'd imagine if the team working on Omniverse were going for a similar moon-earth distance it wouldn't look like Galvan B was in low orbit from the planet.

I might also have a better idea than the 10-minute timeframe. Atomix was exhausted at the end of his fight with Malgax thus we could assume he depleted all of his energy during that fight and thus divide his total energy (= 4-C, or potentially higher since creating a sun could require more concentration and thus effort from him than just shooting an energy blast, similar to Green Lanterns where their ring got overloaded by creating a solar system which btw is proof for 4-B, see Post-Flashpoint’s Barry’s page, despite being an overtime feat) over the amount of attacks he used in that fight to get his regular AP (we’d need a thorough analysis on this tho since I think the fight was off-screen for a bit).

I'd be against this kind of scaling - we explicitly do not allow for additive durability based on withstanding an attack overtime or taking multiple attacks from the same character.

What was applied to DC Comics is either a massive exception based on a large amount of context that likely isn't held for the Atomix/Malgax fight or it's something that should be updated/removed.

I’m basically saying that it was clearly intended to be a real black hole or else saying he could create a quasar would be false and they would have answered: no, because Gravattack’s black hole he created isn’t a real black hole.

Anyways for my previous debunk on your message wall:

I don't really see how that proves "intention" if they just use a more scientific name for a supermassive Black Hole. It's like saying an author calling what we determined to be unrealistic light a "photon beam" - it doesn't suddenly make the light realistic, it just means they're aware of synonyms.

Fair on the debunk though, as long as we aren't attempting to use scaling, and if what you're saying is correct (that the black hole was only caused by a special interaction of Gravattack and the Time Beast's powers) it's not a feat he can accomplish under regular circumstances. So I guess for cataloguing purposes we can mention it but practically, in VS matches, it's not very combat-applicable.
 
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Apologies for sleeping on this thread for a while, lot of ground to cover.


I mean, this only works if we cherrypick examples of the Moon/Earth being drawn unrealistically close from space (which I think there's 1 or 2 from Omniverse), however we're kind of forgetting the optics of the planet/moon viewed from each other's surface. When viewed from the Moon, Earth is far, far more distant than Galvan is viewed from Galvan B, and the same is roughly consistent vice versa. While you can give me a few examples of bad optics for the Earth/Moon at best, every single example of Galvan Prime and Galvan B portrayed visually in the show have them far closer.

You'd imagine if the team working on Omniverse were going for a similar moon-earth distance it wouldn't look like Galvan B was in low orbit from the planet.

.
There have been many bad optics of the Moon more consistently throughout all the series, including Omniverse (which is when we see Galvan B for the first time), and if you’re going to be comparing the optics the way you are, you have to take it from the same series. Like the Moon viewed from Earth here or the Moon viewed in space here, Galvan B has been drawn further than that if not at least the same as it. I don’t see how anything shown debunks Duncan’s tweet about the distance. We’ve also never seen the Earth viewed from the Moon in Omniverse and both of your images that you showed are the same one.
 
Fair on the debunk though, as long as we aren't attempting to use scaling, and if what you're saying is correct (that the black hole was only caused by a special interaction of Gravattack and the Time Beast's powers) it's not a feat he can accomplish under regular circumstances. So I guess for cataloguing purposes we can mention it but practically, in VS matches, it's not very combat-applicable.
It wasn’t really a special interaction, this was just the only time we seen Gravattack increase his gravity that much, and it was when he captured a Time Beast and tried to slow it down with his gravity, which could only be accomplished by becoming a black hole/creating one. Nothing really says he would constantly need a Time Beast to do it again. As he could still increase his gravity to that level.
 
I mean, this only works if we cherrypick examples of the Moon/Earth being drawn unrealistically close from space.
I was targetting every time Galvan Prime and/or B appeared in the continuity:
( hence why Paradox's future moon isn't in it ) {
• OV_s01_e04​
• OV_s03_e01​
OV_s03_e02
• OV_s06_e06​
• OV_s08_e07​
}


The Moon - Earth frame is from OV_s03_e02 finale:
bGRz6pA.jpeg
 
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I also want to point out that the most likely reason for this is not
" Im simply holding the B10 crew up to their previous drawings." } nor { " the UAF crew was good, OV crew was dumb."

But just Artistic Representation of alien planets
which is fairly common.

LevwkVy.gif


I shouldnt have to explain why comparing different artstyles isn't a good idea @Zamasu_Chan, nor that
The Future moon frame from AF is really good, but that not every other frame in the series was that way.

aRgRJIh.png
 
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It wasn’t really a special interaction, this was just the only time we seen Gravattack increase his gravity that much, and it was when he captured a Time Beast and tried to slow it down with his gravity, which could only be accomplished by becoming a black hole/creating one. Nothing really says he would constantly need a Time Beast to do it again. As he could still increase his gravity to that level.
It was, Rook specifically says this happened because of the interaction of Gravattack’s gravity powers and the Time Beast’s time powers.

You could argue that if Gravattack pushed himself even further that he could indeed create a black hole by himself (he was getting close to it after all) but this would purely be based on the author statement and not the feat itself. @Dargoo_Faust can decide whether he thinks that is enough proof, keep in mind that the quasar stuff might have been the possibility that Duncan was referring to rather than Gravattack being capable of creating a black hole which was sort of treated like a given I think.

Also a small note that I might scale Alien X to the black hole when I argue that Alien X has superior gravity and time manipulation than the aliens involved in the feat thus he should be capable of replicating the same feat, other than Celestialsapiens nobody else scales.
 
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